[Trade] Maple Leafs trade Travis Dermott to Canucks for 2022 3rd-round pick

[JM_]

4 hours ago, Gawdzukes said:

I don't think the fanbase could take it for one but why blow it up when you already have the young building blocks required to move forward? That would be silly. A bit like throwing a temper tantrum because there is a cap limit and just burning your own house down in frustration. No point to it really. You just have to rebuild your house.

 

It seems like you're really just not ready to acknowledge or understand what has already been recorded by pen on paper and stated multiple times. JR and co feel there are some real good building blocks but the team needs some serious re-structuring and cap relief. Simple really. Call it whatever you want our core is young, Miller and Pearson can go.

 

@JM_ I agree blow it up, just keep Hughes, Petterson, Demko, Podkolzin, Hoglander, Dermott, (23 yrs average age for those 6) Bo, OEL (too hard to trade). 65% blow up.

I like our core guys, just think we likely lose Bo if we lose Miller, and then we'll suck anyway so might as well cash in and go full busteroo. 

[Smashian Kassian]

22 hours ago, JM_ said:

the point I'm making is that trading Miller may have unintended consequences, like e.g., Bo not wanting to stick around. I don't think I'm making a false claim there, he stated he doesn't want to stick around for another rebuild.

 

So, any plan that moves Miller needs to have a plan for moving Bo too. 

 

22 hours ago, aGENT said:

Trading Miller does not equal a rebuild. It's really not complicated.

 

It is a tricky situation. We absolutely can't take steps back into a 're-build' & have the locker room disgruntled again like after the Markstrom/Tanev/Toffoli departures. And we also cannot let Miller walk for nothing.

 

If they sign the Zibanejad deal its going to be an anchor at some point. I think you either need to get something that's favorable for the team, or move him while his value is still sky high - that means a resolution in the summer. I'm not sold trading him is the best bet but we also gotta be wary about saddling ourselves with a boat anchor & limiting our window.

 

I agree with aGENT that trading him =/= rebuild. If you get a young NHL ready player in the deal then things can look pretty good very quickly. Look at how quickly Suzuki materialized for MTL, or how Tuch/Theodore were impact players for Vegas right away. (Krebs in Buffalo is looking the same). 

 

If we trade Miller getting that type of piece is paramount, then the other assets can be developed as futures or flipped. It can't be just lottery tickets that leave us 2-3 years away. 

[aGENT]

32 minutes ago, Smashian Kassian said:

 

 

It is a tricky situation. We absolutely can't take steps back into a 're-build' & have the locker room disgruntled again like after the Markstrom/Tanev/Toffoli departures. And we also cannot let Miller walk for nothing.

 

If they sign the Zibanejad deal its going to be an anchor at some point. I think you either need to get something that's favorable for the team, or move him while his value is still sky high - that means a resolution in the summer. I'm not sold trading him is the best bet but we also gotta be wary about saddling ourselves with a boat anchor & limiting our window.

 

I agree with aGENT that trading him =/= rebuild. If you get a young NHL ready player in the deal then things can look pretty good very quickly. Look at how quickly Suzuki materialized for MTL, or how Tuch/Theodore were impact players for Vegas right away. (Krebs in Buffalo is looking the same). 

 

If we trade Miller getting that type of piece is paramount, then the other assets can be developed as futures or flipped. It can't be just lottery tickets that leave us 2-3 years away. 

 

Exactly! If moving one player equates to a rebuild, we're in far more need of a step back than even I think we need! The idea we couldn't still be competitive next year is silly IMO.

 

Do something like:

 

-Trade Miller for Lundqvist, Chytil and 1st (maybe try and squeeze one of Kravtsov/Othmann/Barron/Robertson as well, perhaps with retention etc). Or a similar package from another team.

 

-Trade one of Boeser/Garland + Poolman for Marino and Kapanen.

 

-Sign one of Paul/Tierney/Sturm for replacement C depth.

 

-Bonus points if we can move Myers and replace him with the cheaper, defensively superior (if less well rounded) Lyubushkin this summer.

 

Yes, we'll likely need to find/draft/develop/sign a legit 1st line W'er at some point in the next couple years as we'd be down a couple top 6 F's (and both Kapanen and Chytil are likely more mid-6 than top 6) but we'd be a TONNE younger/faster/cheaper so we're in a position to acquire the younger "next Miller", when this team is closer to contending.

 

Kapanen, Pettersson, Boeser/Garland

Chytil, Horvat, Hoglander/Podkolzin

Pearson, Paul, Hoglander/Podkolzin

Dickinson, Lammiko, Highmore

 

Lockwood (Hell, I wouldn't even be opposed to bringing back Richardson, or similar player, as 13th F rather than having Lockwood sit in the press box half the year).

 

Hughes, Marino

OEL, Lundqvist

Dermott, Lyubushkin

 

Burroughs, Schenn

 

That's a FARRRR  better defense that should both help reduce GA, and get the puck forward, to help our lesser top end but younger, faster and deeper F group. Hopefully that, and natural progression of guys like Petey/Hogs/Podz and that added speed can recoup some of the scoring losses you'd expect from losing a guy like Miller and one of Boeser/Garland.

 

No reason, that roster can't still be a bubble playoff team next year. Then new management, needs to money-puck that hell out of finding college/euro/under utilized FA's, make some good draft picks, develop those (and the guys we already have) and look like hell for "next Miller" when the opportunity arises so that we have the chance to push guys like Kapanen, Chytil etc down the lineup as guys like Pearson, Dickinson etc expire.

[Nucks780]

Just saw his mic'd up on youtube. Seems like a good team guy. Already seems like he is part of the team so quickly. I think he could be a keeper, maybe work his way into a top 4 'd.

[DrJockitch]

28 minutes ago, aGENT said:

 

Exactly! If moving one player equates to a rebuild, we're in far more need of a step back than even I think we need! The idea we couldn't still be competitive next year is silly IMO.

 

Do something like:

 

-Trade Miller for Lundqvist, Chytil and 1st (maybe try and squeeze one of Kravtsov/Othmann/Barron/Robertson as well, perhaps with retention etc). Or a similar package from another team.

 

-Trade one of Boeser/Garland + Poolman for Marino and Kapanen.

 

-Sign one of Paul/Tierney/Sturm for replacement C depth.

 

-Bonus points if we can move Myers and replace him with the cheaper, defensively superior (if less well rounded) Lyubushkin this summer.

 

Yes, we'll likely need to find/draft/develop/sign a legit 1st line W'er at some point in the next couple years as we'd be down a couple top 6 F's (and both Kapanen and Chytil are likely more mid-6 than top 6) but we'd be a TONNE younger/faster/cheaper so we're in a position to acquire the younger "next Miller", when this team is closer to contending.

 

Kapanen, Pettersson, Boeser/Garland

Chytil, Horvat, Hoglander/Podkolzin

Pearson, Paul, Hoglander/Podkolzin

Dickinson, Lammiko, Highmore

 

Lockwood (Hell, I wouldn't even be opposed to bringing back Richardson, or similar player, as 13th F rather than having Lockwood sit in the press box half the year).

 

Hughes, Marino

OEL, Lundqvist

Dermott, Lyubushkin

 

Burroughs, Schenn

 

That's a FARRRR  better defense that should both help reduce GA, and get the puck forward, to help our lesser top end but younger, faster and deeper F group. Hopefully that, and natural progression of guys like Petey/Hogs/Podz and that added speed can recoup some of the scoring losses you'd expect from losing a guy like Miller and one of Boeser/Garland.

 

No reason, that roster can't still be a bubble playoff team next year. Then new management, needs to money-puck that hell out of finding college/euro/under utilized FA's, make some good draft picks, develop those (and the guys we already have) and look like hell for "next Miller" when the opportunity arises so that we have the chance to push guys like Kapanen, Chytil etc down the lineup as guys like Pearson, Dickinson etc expire.

TBH that looks at best like taking a below average team and maybe ending up with an average team at best. 

[Alflives]

2 minutes ago, Nucks780 said:

Just saw his mic'd up on youtube. Seems like a good team guy. Already seems like he is part of the team so quickly. I think he could be a keeper, maybe work his way into a top 4 'd.

If Dermott is playing top four minutes we suck old (very smelly) socks.  He’s a very soft player who brings no offence.  That is pretty much a useless piece.  Waste of a third rounder (just like Benning did) on a fully matured guy in hopes of some magical improvement.  

[aGENT]

1 minute ago, DrJockitch said:

TBH that looks at best like taking a below average team and maybe ending up with an average team at best. 

Yeah, it's not supposed to be a contender NEXT YEAR.

 

There's a lot more work to do than one off season of moves. Least of which is actually getting Petey, Hughes, Podkolzin etc actually in their primes and continuing to add depth and quality around them. You'll note there were numerous comments in that post in the work that would have to continue on AFTER those moves, right?

[Alflives]

9 minutes ago, aGENT said:

Yeah, it's not supposed to be a contender NEXT YEAR.

 

There's a lot more work to do than one off season of moves. Least of which is actually getting Petey, Hughes, Podkolzin etc actually in their primes and continuing to add depth and quality around them. You'll note there were numerous comments in that post in the work that would have to continue on AFTER those moves, right?

I understand.  Your plan is to turn over parts of the roster over a two to three year period.  Won’t we be a fairly decent team though during those years?  We will likely draft about where we do this year.  So we will get guts who will need three t five years to be contributing and they will not be support players, unless we get very lucky.  

It just seems like we continue to spin our tires.

Maybe we are best to do a deeper retool, and dive down toget top five picks for a couple three years?  We lose Miller, Bo, Bess, from our core.  But we still have Petey, Hughes, and Demko to build around.  Garland is on a good contract so we could keep him.  Pods and Hogs will be in the mix too.  OEL, of course, will stay.  Rathbone clearly is a player.  

With smart trades we might be able to bounce back (to a much higher level than now) in two years, and have 5-7 years of being at that higher level.  

Edited April 7, 2022 by Alflives

[JM_]

1 hour ago, Smashian Kassian said:

 

 

It is a tricky situation. We absolutely can't take steps back into a 're-build' & have the locker room disgruntled again like after the Markstrom/Tanev/Toffoli departures. And we also cannot let Miller walk for nothing.

yup this has a lot of moving parts and lots of consequences if its not done right 

 

1 hour ago, Smashian Kassian said:

 

If they sign the Zibanejad deal its going to be an anchor at some point. I think you either need to get something that's favorable for the team, or move him while his value is still sky high - that means a resolution in the summer. I'm not sold trading him is the best bet but we also gotta be wary about saddling ourselves with a boat anchor & limiting our window.

No one knows for sure, to me Miller seems like a safe bet for 4-5 years of that deal, but of course the last 3 would not be ppg years. But I see our current opportunity as Demko's current deal, so I'm not concerned about the last 3 of Millers deal, compared to losing the next 4 years of play.

 

1 hour ago, Smashian Kassian said:

 

I agree with aGENT that trading him =/= rebuild. If you get a young NHL ready player in the deal then things can look pretty good very quickly. Look at how quickly Suzuki materialized for MTL, or how Tuch/Theodore were impact players for Vegas right away. (Krebs in Buffalo is looking the same). 

 

If we trade Miller getting that type of piece is paramount, then the other assets can be developed as futures or flipped. It can't be just lottery tickets that leave us 2-3 years away. 

It is a rebuild if it means we lose Bo too. Miller isn't just moving 'any one' player, he's our best F. 

 

I'm not opposed to moving him if we get the perfect pieces back, I just think thats extremely unlikely. 

 

[aGENT]

36 minutes ago, Alflives said:

I understand.  Your plan is to turn over parts of the roster over a two to three year period.  Won’t we be a fairly decent team though during those years?  We will likely draft about where we do this year.  So we will get guts who will need three t five years to be contributing and they will not be support players, unless we get very lucky.  

It just seems like we continue to spin our tires.

Maybe we are best to do a deeper retool, and dive down toget top five picks for a couple three years?  We lose Miller, Bo, Bess, from our core.  But we still have Petey, Hughes, and Demko to build around.  Garland is on a good contract so we could keep him.  Pods and Hogs will be in the mix too.  OEL, of course, will stay.  Rathbone clearly is a player.  

With smart trades we might be able to bounce back (to a much higher level than now) in two years, and have 5-7 years of being at that higher level.  

Who knows, maybe it would be better? Your crystal ball's just as fuzzy as mine Alf  

 

But IMO, we have a good young nucleus to build around. They will be in their primes in ~2-7 years. Everything we should be doing IMO, should be geared towards making the team as deep and good as possible in the +/- 5 year window. So if players take a few years to get ready, that fits in that window just fine. And we need to continue to build not just from the draft anyway.

 

If you take a middling team and continue to improve it year over year. Refine it, add depth, streamline it's cap competitiveness etc, It's bound to get better IMO.  But like I said in that post, at some point we need to draft/develop/sign/trade for a top 6 W'er in there if we were to make similar moves. But we need to start building towards that, this summer IMO.

 

 

[Gawdzukes]

5 hours ago, JM_ said:

I like our core guys, just think we likely lose Bo if we lose Miller, and then we'll suck anyway so might as well cash in and go full busteroo. 

I can agree on that. I just don't think we lose Bo at all. He would be negotiated in parallel with a Miller trade and or traded as well. Whichever.

 

3 hours ago, JM_ said:

No one knows for sure, to me Miller seems like a safe bet for 4-5 years of that deal, but of course the last 3 would not be ppg years. But I see our current opportunity as Demko's current deal, so I'm not concerned about the last 3 of Millers deal, compared to losing the next 4 years of play.

Imo this is our biggest flaw. We have to stop making bad moves just because we're impatient.

Edited April 7, 2022 by Gawdzukes

[Westcoastcanucks777]

[JM_]

11 hours ago, Gawdzukes said:

I can agree on that. I just don't think we lose Bo at all. He would be negotiated in parallel with a Miller trade and or traded as well. Whichever.

 

Imo this is our biggest flaw. We have to stop making bad moves just because we're impatient.

its also the reality of today's NHL, every team wanting to compete has at least one of these deals. 

[Gawdzukes]

32 minutes ago, JM_ said:

its also the reality of today's NHL, every team wanting to compete has at least one of these deals. 

Yes but they usually build a good team first then get Miller type players. There isn't much point in AZ or Seattle or going out and signing Miller just to waste 7-8 years of time and money and assets for everyone. He's not winning either of those teams or himself a Cup.

 

I'm just praying I don't have to watch this current version of the team slowly wither and die for the next 7 years. I for one will have a very hard time watching this same team next year. Thank Gawd for NFL football if this is the case.

[JM_]

9 minutes ago, Gawdzukes said:

Yes but they usually build a good team first then get Miller type players. There isn't much point in AZ or Seattle or going out and signing Miller just to waste 7-8 years of time and money and assets for everyone. He's not winning either of those teams or himself a Cup.

 

I'm just praying I don't have to watch this current version of the team slowly wither and die for the next 7 years. I for one will have a very hard time watching this same team next year. Thank Gawd for NFL football if this is the case.

but we're not Seattle. 

 

My preference is to support the core we have, if you look at our actual record under BB I don't see why we'd want to mess that up when we can try to move cap in other ways first. 

[Gawdzukes]

1 minute ago, JM_ said:

but we're not Seattle. 

 

My preference is to support the core we have, if you look at our actual record under BB I don't see why we'd want to mess that up when we can try to move cap in other ways first. 

I guess. If you pick and choose only the games you want we're also 33-0 this year. Reality is we're not even a playoff team but sure let's just pretend we're a top 10 team. What could go wrong?

[JM_]

6 minutes ago, Gawdzukes said:

I guess. If you pick and choose only the games you want we're also 33-0 this year. Reality is we're not even a playoff team but sure let's just pretend we're a top 10 team. What could go wrong?

wut? do you think our record under BB is a mirage of some kind? 

[MeanSeanBean]

21 minutes ago, JM_ said:

but we're not Seattle. 

 

My preference is to support the core we have, if you look at our actual record under BB I don't see why we'd want to mess that up when we can try to move cap in other ways first. 

This is an argument I have a little bit of a hard time with. Our record under Bruce has been great, but that's cherry picking games. Yes it's what the new team may look like going forward, but it's still discrediting a group of games. If we apply that same logic to this team after the 'Bruce Bump' this team has been much closer to a .500 hockey team then the dominate force we saw in those 10 or so games.

 

If this team is more in reality the team post bump, it's a fringe playoff team. In my opinion a fringe playoff team, when you're getting outstanding goaltending, leads me to believe the team simply isn't good enough to keep trucking forward. Yeah, we might make the playoffs next year which would be great. But if that's at the cost of signing a player pushing 30 into a long-term contract at 8 million plus... I just don't see that being a good long term game plan to support this core.

[JM_]

4 minutes ago, Shayster007 said:

This is an argument I have a little bit of a hard time with. Our record under Bruce has been great, but that's cherry picking games. Yes it's what the new team may look like going forward, but it's still discrediting a group of games. If we apply that same logic to this team after the 'Bruce Bump' this team has been much closer to a .500 hockey team then the dominate force we saw in those 10 or so games.

 

If this team is more in reality the team post bump, it's a fringe playoff team. In my opinion a fringe playoff team, when you're getting outstanding goaltending, leads me to believe the team simply isn't good enough to keep trucking forward. Yeah, we might make the playoffs next year which would be great. But if that's at the cost of signing a player pushing 30 into a long-term contract at 8 million plus... I just don't see that being a good long term game plan to support this core.

Say e.g., we could replace Petan and Chaisson with Nick Paul and Nick Deslauriers, and upgrade our d with Manson. Are we still fringe? 

[Gawdzukes]

13 minutes ago, JM_ said:

wut? do you think our record under BB is a mirage of some kind? 

Yes I do. We're 17-17-8 without the 9 game coaching bump. I guess the 23 players that played the first 25 games don't factor into this at all. They have absolutely nothing to do with our early season record so just erase that I guess. We're also 3-4-3 in our last 10 when it counted, but that doesn't matter either so just erase that too. We play like absolute rubbish at times, and don't show up for the first period, but that doesn't matter either I guess.

 

What would you tell a Leaf fan if they missed the playoffs in 4 out of 5 seasons, changed their coaches early in year 6 and won a handful of games before missing the playoffs by 9 points yet proclaimed themselves a top contender based on only the games they feel like counting?