(discussion) With stats/facts to back it up, explain where you think our d group ranks.

[Guest]

@JM_  

 

I feel like this thread deserved a poll....  where do you think our D group ranks?  

 

a) 1st to 8th 

b) 9th to 16th 

c) 17th to 24th 

d) 25th to 32nd 

[Viper007]

4 hours ago, King Heffy said:

Chiasson, Hunt, and Petan did nothing to suggest they had earned roster spots.  Green also didn't utilize Shaw effectively and allowed Baumgartner to sabotage the defence, and he clearly was unwilling on unable to set the lineup properly..  Bottom line is he may not have been intentionally hurting the team, but he did not conduct himself appropriately and no one in their right mind would have any respect for him.  You can't allow a coach who is that bad anywhere near your group.

Why is Chiasson one the players you name? He totally outplayed Gadjovich.  Chiasson had a decent season for league minimum.  

[King Heffy]

9 minutes ago, Viper007 said:

Why is Chiasson one the players you name? He totally outplayed Gadjovich.  Chiasson had a decent season for league minimum.  

He had a hot couple of months, but overall he was absolutely useless.  I'd rather a bottom line guy who can at least stick up for his teammates over a plug who won't hit, is slow as hell, and is poor defensively.  He did absolutely nothing in camp to earn that spot.

[Viper007]

5 minutes ago, King Heffy said:

He had a hot couple of months, but overall he was absolutely useless.  I'd rather a bottom line guy who can at least stick up for his teammates over a plug who won't hit, is slow as hell, and is poor defensively.  He did absolutely nothing in camp to earn that spot.

Gadjovich did nothing in SJ compared to what Chaisson did in Vancouver.

[JM_]

9 hours ago, VancouverHabitant said:

@JM_  

 

I feel like this thread deserved a poll....  where do you think our D group ranks?  

 

a) 1st to 8th 

b) 9th to 16th 

c) 17th to 24th 

d) 25th to 32nd 

good idea, tried to edit the OP but not sure how to add a poll.  

[DSVII]

21 hours ago, Dazzle said:

 

@Dazzle quotes buttons man!

 

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I don't have the time to pick out every single part of his argument, so I'll address some of them.

I highly encourage you to, i'll be here

 

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His argument that Edler can't be used as damning evidence of Gillis is beyond silly. Edler is the oldest part of that core, which LOGICALLY should have been addressed earlier than any other roster player. The fact that Gillis COULDN'T draft/develop a single defenseman beyond Hutton demonstrates a failure that DSV doesn't want to admit. That in itself is a weakness of his argument, and not evidence that this is a "well put together argument".

 

He also talks about this part:

You have to be consistent with how you look at GMs. Everyone is saying don't worry about Myers and OEL because Dmen develop late into their 30s. Please address this. Why is Gillis taking flak from you from not drafting Edler's replacement when he was 28, coming off a 50 point season not too long ago, when Benning bought in two thirty year old defensemen who couldn't score more than 30 points last season? Why is Gillis getting flack from you on this and not Benning?

 

When Duncan Keith, Victor Hedman, Kris Letang were 28 years old, no one was harping those GMs for finding their future replacements at that time.

 

Gillis was also fired before he had a chance to replenish the pipeline. 

 

And as for replenishing the defense pipeline, I think Gillis ties Benning in this regard. Benning could have EASILY run away with this had he just kept Gustav Forsling or any of his 2nds. For now, both have one or two late round defensemen drafted to their name. Considering Benning had 8 years of high picks to do this, massive failure on him. 

 

 

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Response

 

Yes, they were GIllis pieces, but Luongo/Edler were somebody else's pieces. So was Kesler, the Sedins, and so forth - none of which Gillis found replacements for, nor did he engineer any kind of trade where he could get some future picks back.

He didn't have time. Unlike Benning, Gillis was only here for 5 years. And he only tried to rebuild for one offseason before he was canned. 

He engineered the Lu trade to get Markstrom. And Schneider to get 9th overall. He was fired before he could trade Kesler and the rumor was Aquilini nixed Gillis' deal. So he found a deal. Short memory here Daz.

 

https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/nhl-trades/canucks-owners-may-have-nixed-a-kesler-deal/

 

So no, i reject your statement that Gillis didn't try to get future picks back.  I'm also providing sources to back up each of my points. Something you aren't doing.

 

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Response:

 

This is actually a false statement. How exactly did Benning "directly benefitted every other team"? It makes no sense at all. If Benning's roster sucks, it's just one team. How does it "directly benefit" every team? If Benning's trading sucks, how many trades did he actually make that was a net positive gain for Edmonton/Calgary, so forth. That's why his statement here is illogical.

Unfortunately for you (and us), the NHL is a zero sum game. Whatever you do that screws you up ends up benefitting someone. Name another GM that has had such an impact on just their divisional rivals alone. (so this ignores Pittsburgh and Tampa, who went to back to back cups because of Benning's salary cap inefficient trades that allowed them to leverage trading their 3Cs away to us while hauling a premium..)

 

So there are logical things you can point to where he benefited our divisional rivals through his mistakes.

 

To Arizona:

Taking OEL off their books.

$12 million in cap flexibility this year

A 10th overall pick

 

To Montreal (while they were in our division):

Tyler Toffoli (who ended up scoring a heck of a lot of goals on us when we were in the Northern division. Benning's salary cap stupidity and not even tendering Tofofli an offer directly affected our playoff chances in 2021. 

 

 

To Calgary (Benning indirectly built their top 4 through his trades and neglicence)

Rasmus Andersson (The 2nd round pick we traded Baerschi for)

Chris Tanev (not even tendering an offer until day 1 of UFA bc pursuing OEL)

Matthew Tkachuk (whiffing on Juolevi)

 

To LA

Acquiring a 2nd for Linden Vey who became a bust

Acquiring a 2nd and Madden for UFA Toffoli

 

To Anaheim

Letting them keep their 10th OA and Shea Theodore in the Bonino trade. 

 

It's quite impressive actually.

 

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Bo Horvat, if I should remind him and others, was ONLY obtained by trading a KNOWN commodity in Schneider for an UNKNOWN 9th pick. Horvat had skating issues at the time, which he was able to address, but things would turn out VERY differently had Schneider turned into a superstar goalie, and Horvat turning into a bust.

Wait wait wait, so you're giving Gillis grief for not trying to get draft picks to restock the farm, and when he does, it doesn't count? Come on man. In your own words.

 

"none of which Gillis found replacements for, nor did he engineer any kind of trade where he could get some future picks back."

 

That's a draft pick. He was acquired by trading a commodity to rebuild. For a good price too,. How many goalies have you seen since then that returned a top 10 draft pick?

 

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Virtanen was in a draft where many of the first round picks ended up being duds. Dal Colle was a particularly bad pick, as well as Fleury (the defenseman). Olli Juolevi was plagued with injuries and COVID. I'm not sure how one can predict that kind of outcome, considering Juolevi DID win at every level, from the Memorial Cup to the Gold Medal team for Finland at the WJC.

Whether another GM makes a mistake like is irrelevant. That's deflecting. If someone made a mistake with Dal Colle, that should benefit Benning even more with him off the board. He's still accountable for his pick.

 

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This is a foolish comparison. Gillis threw away three first round picks (Gaunce/Jensen/25th pick in the Grabner trade, ALONG with Grabner, who was also a first rounder, for Ballard, who Gillis ended up buying out.

It's empirical fact. When GMs trade down from above the draft, a higher draft pick, especially one in the top 5, is worth several lower picks even if it is one first round.

 

Benning's draft mistakes were magnified by his misses at the top.

 

And guess what, trading McCann + a high 2nd (33rd) for Gudbranson, and making it Pearson is several times worse than that trade you just described from a value perspective.

 

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This doesn't include the multiple second round picks that he threw away in trades, namely the Derek Roy trade.

 

 

Number of 2nd round picks traded away by Gillis : 2 (1 for Derek Roy)

 

Number of 2nd round picks traded away by Benning : 6

 

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Benning drafted Demko - starting goalie - using a 2nd round pick that Gillis kept flubbing. So the argument that Benning had the privilege of high picks is trash. He also has Rathbone, a promising defenseman that Gillis never had in his system. What about Hoglander? Another second round pick.

 

Other possible NHLers: Jett Woo (2nd round pick). We also have Silovs, again, a promising goalie that never existed under Gillis' regime.

 

 

That's great. With one of the rare 2nds he kept. Hogs is great. I wish he kept more 2nds rather than handing them out like candy.

 

And Gillis also found him a starting goaltender in Markstrom while Demko was developing. Both scored on that front. 

 

I love Jett Woo, but he is lower on the totem pole than Frankie Corrado was when Gillis is here. He's a long shot to make it.

 

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So the argument that Benning had the privilege of high picks is trash

 

It's empirical evidence. The fact that GMs trade down to get more quantities of lower picks for one high draft pick is enough to rebuke your take on this. 

 

The 2nd round picks that Gillis had were averaged at around pick #50-60 because his teams were winning presidents trophies. Benning's were in the #30-40s because his teams ended at the bottom of the league.  Demko was a 36th overall pick, that's higher than any of GIllis' 2nd rounders he would have had.

 

The value drop is steep, and a pick in the early 2nds is weighed as much as two in the late 2nd. it makes a difference in value.

 

 

 

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 Not really. There are plenty of holes in that argument. It just depends on what you want to believe, and I honestly think that's the problem. People WANT to hate Benning, but won't acknowledge the failures of Gillis. That's a bias. I have acknowledged Gillis' successes, but his failures are also worth mentioning in the same breath.

I'm not perfect, but ignoring the value of draft position is the kamchatka crater-sized hole in yours. 

 

Likewise man. Benning is what he is, Gillis is what he is. Believe doesn't have much to do with it. It's stats and empirical evidence. i'm going to quote the enemy here for just the value of a pick in the late 20s:

 

"The general prices

If the Flames wanted to move up from 26th overall, they would likely need to spend a late second round pick or a third round pick – and they’d probably only be able to move up to around 20th overall. (They only have a late third round pick – 88th overall – so trading up seems unlikely.)

If the Flames wanted to trade down, they could probably net a third round pick for moving within the first round or potentially a second round pick for trading into the early second round."

 

A mistake involving a Benning pick at the draft is easily worth two or three draft picks in Gillis'. 

 

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Gillis is remembered for his playoff wins, and not much else. His legacy for poor draft picks and draft development SHOULD NOT be ignored.

The end goal of a GM is playoff wins. 

 

And his poor performance at the draft definitely should not be ignored, it played a part in his downfall.

 

But his playoff performances in spite of that put him firmly out of the horrible gm category. And easily ranked above Benning.

Edited July 27, 2022 by DSVII

[Alflives]

7 minutes ago, DSVII said:

@Dazzle quotes buttons man!

 

I highly encourage you to, i'll be here

 

You have to be consistent with how you look at GMs. Everyone is saying don't worry about Myers and OEL because Dmen develop late into their 30s. Please address this. Why is Gillis taking flak from you from not drafting Edler's replacement when he was 28, coming off a 50 point season not too long ago, when Benning bought in two thirty year old defensemen who couldn't score more than 30 points last season? Why is Gillis getting flack from you on this and not Benning?

 

 

When Duncan Keith, Victor Hedman, Kris Letang were 28 years old, no one was harping those GMs for finding their future replacements at that time.

 

Gillis was also fired before he had a chance to replenish the pipeline. 

 

Apart from Ben Hutton? Remember Frankie Corrado was also on this list. 

 

He didn't have time. Unlike Benning, Gillis was only here for 5 years. And he only tried to rebuild for one offseason before he was canned. 

He engineered the Lu trade to get Markstrom. And Schneider to get 9th overall. He was fired before he could trade Kesler and the rumor was Aquilini nixed Gillis' deal. So he found a deal. Short memory here Daz.

 

https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/nhl-trades/canucks-owners-may-have-nixed-a-kesler-deal/

 

So no, i reject your statement that Gillis didn't try to get future picks back.  I'm also providing sources to back up each of my points. Something you aren't doing.

 

Unfortunately for you (and us), the NHL is a zero sum game. Whatever you do that screws you up ends up benefitting someone. Name another GM that has had such an impact on just their divisional rivals alone. (so this ignores Pittsburgh and Tampa, who went to back to back cups because of Benning's salary cap inefficient trades that allowed them to leverage trading their 3Cs away to us while hauling a premium..)

 

So there are logical things you can point to where he benefited our divisional rivals through his mistakes.

 

To Arizona:

Taking OEL off their books.

$12 million in cap flexibility this year

A 10th overall pick

 

To Montreal (while they were in our division):

Tyler Toffoli (who ended up scoring a heck of a lot of goals on us when we were in the Northern division. Benning's salary cap stupidity and not even tendering Tofofli an offer directly affected our playoff chances in 2021. 

 

 

To Calgary (Benning indirectly built their top 4 through his trades and neglicence)

Rasmus Andersson (The 2nd round pick we traded Baerschi for)

Chris Tanev (not even tendering an offer until day 1 of UFA bc pursuing OEL)

Matthew Tkachuk (whiffing on Juolevi)

 

To LA

Acquiring a 2nd for Linden Vey who became a bust

Acquiring a 2nd and Madden for UFA Toffoli

 

To Anaheim

Letting them keep their 10th OA and Shea Theadore in the trade.

 

It's quite impressive actually.

 

Wait wait wait, so you're giving Gillis grief for not trying to get draft picks to restock the farm, and when he does, it doesn't count? Come on man. In your own words.

 

"none of which Gillis found replacements for, nor did he engineer any kind of trade where he could get some future picks back."

 

That's a draft pick. He was acquired by trading a commodity to rebuild. For a good price too,. How many goalies have you seen since then that returned a top 10 draft pick?

 

Whether another GM makes a mistake like is irrelevant. That's deflecting. If someone made a mistake with Dal Colle, that should benefit Benning even more with him off the board. He's still accountable for his pick.

 

It's empirical fact. When GMs trade down from above the draft, a higher draft pick, especially one in the top 5, is worth several lower picks even if it is one first round.

 

Benning's draft mistakes were magnified by his misses at the top.

 

Number of 2nd round picks traded away by Gillis : 2 (1 for Derek Roy)

 

Number of 2nd round picks traded away by Benning : 6

 

That's great. With one of the rare 2nds he kept. And Gillis also found him a starting goaltender in Markstrom while Demko was developing. Both scored on that front. 

 

 

It's empirical evidence. The fact that GMs trade down to get more quantities of lower picks for one high draft pick is enough to rebuke your take on this. 

 

The 2nd round picks that Gillis had were averaged at around pick #50-60 because his teams were winning presidents trophies. Benning's were in the #30-40s because his teams ended at the bottom of the league.  Demko was a 36th overall pick, that's higher than any of GIllis' 2nd rounders he would have had.

 

The value drop is steep, and a pick in the early 2nds is weighed as much as two in the late 2nd. it makes a difference in value.

 

 

 

The end goal of a GM is playoff wins. 

 

And his poor performance at the draft definitely should not be ignored, it played a part in his downfall.

 

But his playoff performances in spite of that put him firmly out of the horrible gm category. And easily ranked above Benning.

Holy!  This is fantastic!!!  

[DSVII]

8 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Holy!  This is fantastic!!!  

We've butted heads on a lot of things @Alflives, (think you called me a detroit bandwaggoner at one point) so I appreciate that

[DSVII]

On 7/26/2022 at 8:15 AM, NewbieCanuckFan said:

All this Gillis vs Benning stuff is pointless. *BOTH* had their real flaws that led to their demise.  There should be no disputing that.

 

As the thread topic, our blueline.....

 

Our D when Benning was first hired

 

Jason Garrison......29 years old (dealt for a 2nd round pick before the season started)

Dan Hamhuis........29 years old

Edler.....................28 years old

Tanev....................24 years old

Bieksa..................31 years old

Weber...................25 years old

Hutton...................21 years old

 

Our D today:

Hughes.................21 years old

OEL......................31 years old

Myers...................31 years old

Schenn.................31 years old

Poolman (lol)........28 years old

Rathbone..............22 years old

 

Funny how our aging blueline when Benning was hired (and yes, it was an aging roster no question), isn't THAT significantly different than the current blueline (a team that was supposed to be rebuilding).

 

edit:  I did this quickly, I might've missed a player or two.

 

 

Just Ryan Stanton! I added some stats with the two D-cores for some quick side by side comparisons. If you think there's a stat that can go on this let me know I'll see if I can rejig it

 

this is 2013-2014 vs 2021-2022 for these D cores to start their respective seasons, ranked by Cap hit

 

 

 

How it compares vs the rest of the Dmen in the league who played more than 20 games. This is by percentile

 

So for 2021, Hughes has a Fenwick% higher than 96% of all NHL Dmen, and he has more assists than 98% of them.

 

Keep in mind the ice time here will skew the results (i.e if you play 1st line minutes, you will end up giving up more shots against compared to a 4th liner), I'll see ifdo another analysis with expected numbers and weighted values (by icetime) later

 

 

Edited July 27, 2022 by DSVII

[NewbieCanuckFan]

23 minutes ago, DSVII said:

 

Just Ryan Stanton! I added some stats with the two D-cores for some quick side by side comparisons. If you think there's a stat that can go on this let me know I'll see if I can rejig it

 

this is 2013-2014 vs 2021-2022 for these D cores to start their respective seasons, ranked by Cap hit

 

 

 

How it compares vs the rest of the Dmen in the league who played more than 20 games. This is by percentile

 

So for 2021, Hughes has a Fenwick% higher than 96% of all NHL Dmen, and he has more assists than 98% of them.

 

Keep in mind the ice time here will skew the results (i.e if you play 1st line minutes, you will end up giving up more shots against compared to a 4th liner), I'll see ifdo another analysis with expected numbers and weighted values (by icetime) later

 

 

Yeah Hughes is a legit out of the ballpark home run pick.  Even if you ignore all this stats, "numbers"; just look how he was able to progress (or not look like ****) largely under the minor league head coaches Benning hired during his tenure.  He was able to get better *IN SPITE* of bad coaching.  Guys like EP didn't (which shouldn't be really a knock against him imho).

[DSVII]

1 minute ago, NewbieCanuckFan said:

Yeah Hughes is a legit out of the ballpark home run pick.  Even if you ignore all this stats, "numbers"; just look how he was able to progress (or not look like ****) largely under the minor league head coaches Benning hired during his tenure.  He was able to get better *IN SPITE* of bad coaching.  Guys like EP didn't (which shouldn't be really a knock against him imho).

I think Hughes went from U of Michigan straight to Canucks. So Trent Cull never got his grubby hands on him haha

 

Even Nathan MacKinnon had an off year post draft 2 IIRC, so I'm hoping EP can bounce back. 

[NewbieCanuckFan]

1 minute ago, DSVII said:

I think Hughes went from U of Michigan straight to Canucks. So Trent Cull never got his grubby hands on him haha

 

Even Nathan MacKinnon had an off year post draft 2 IIRC, so I'm hoping EP can bounce back. 

And give credit to Benning for re-acquiring Luke Schenn (who looked good with Hughes the first time around). *THIS* is the kind of veteran you get to mentor.  Cheap & dependable AND on a short-term deal.  Not giving out contracts like Poolman got.

Edited July 27, 2022 by NewbieCanuckFan

[EP Phone Home]

On 7/26/2022 at 7:16 PM, NewbieCanuckFan said:

 

To me, there is Pat Quinn....  .then everyone else 

While this banter of Jim VS Mike is impressive. Trying to bring it back to topic here with what Newbie had to say. (Mind you this still isn’t quite on topic about where our defense is ranked my B JM!
 

What I wouldn’t do for the golden olden days when Pat could acquire TWO top 4 D in a single trade deadline (94). Bret Hedican and Jeff Brown plus Lafayette! Those were the days…

 

 

I have to say that this flat cap has made reassembling our defense a more difficult task then JR & PA anticipated. I am pretty sure if Benning was able to get a 2nd rounder for Garrison in his first off season, that without the flat cap teams would be interested in Myers. But this flat cap really has taken the wind out of this off season, not just us but with 9 other teams over the cap.

 

The flat cap isn’t Bennings fault, that was COVID but it’s put this new management in a state of paralysis. 1/3 of the  league being capped out and not enough wiggle room to go around. And it’s not the fault of this new management that their hands are tied with the roster they inherited due to the flat cap. The Ducks are laughing with nearly 26 million in cap space and will

be getting dollar value players/assets for pennies. 

Edited July 28, 2022 by EP Phone Home

[Ballisticsports.]

17 minutes ago, EP Phone Home said:

While this banter of Jim VS Mike is impressive. Trying to bring it back to topic here with what Newbie had to say. (Mind you this still isn’t quite on topic about where our defense is ranked my B JM!
 

What I wouldn’t do for the golden olden days when Pat could acquire TWO top 4 D in a single trade deadline (94). Bret Hedican and Jeff Brown plus Lafayette! Those were the days…

 

 

I have to say that this flat cap has made reassembling our defense a more difficult task then JR & PA anticipated. I am pretty sure if Benning was able to get a 2nd rounder for Garrison in his first off season, that without the flat cap teams would be interested in Myers. But this flat cap really has taken the wind out of this off season, not just us but with 9 other teams over the cap.

 

The flat cap isn’t Bennings fault, that was COVID but it’s put this new management in a state of paralysis. 1/3 of the  league being capped out and not enough wiggle room to go around. And it’s not the fault of this new management that their hands are tied with the roster they inherited due to the flat cap. The Ducks are laughing with nearly 26 million in cap space and will

be getting dollar value players/assets for pennies. 

No It WAS his fault 

Who invests so much of your cap on bottom 6 guys or guys sitting on the bench or minors?

He had a team at the bottom of the league maxed out at the cap each year, instead of taking advantage of opportunities, Instead of trading high picks from each round for overpaid players , he should have been amassing picks. He wasn't a builder of a team and exactly why we have lost good players for nothing, picks, and the mess we are in now. I was so glad when he was gone after watching his mismanagement and it is still affecting us to build a cycle to compete even still

[EP Phone Home]

1 hour ago, ba;;isticsports said:

No It WAS his fault 

Who invests so much of your cap on bottom 6 guys or guys sitting on the bench or minors?

He had a team at the bottom of the league maxed out at the cap each year, instead of taking advantage of opportunities, Instead of trading high picks from each round for overpaid players , he should have been amassing picks. He wasn't a builder of a team and exactly why we have lost good players for nothing, picks, and the mess we are in now. I was so glad when he was gone after watching his mismanagement and it is still affecting us to build a cycle to compete even still

That’s absolutely a fair argument. I was speaking about nobody expected a global pandemic to halt the rising salary cap. Nobody could’ve predicted that.
 

 

However that said, I agree completely that we are in this mess because of our “we are living day to day” previous GM and his lack of cap management and foresight. 
 

I will say that a part of that problem (and it’s a nice problem to have because not every team has this privilege) is that our owner wants us to spend to the cap. We shouldn’t be “all in” to spend to the cap every year when our core is incomplete. By spending to the cap irresponsibly we get stuck spinning our wheels being a “pretender” rather then build up enough core pieces to be a contender” Cap space has proven to be king in this flat cap climate.

 

 

Looking at the teams (Carolina, Seattle) that literally are getting players and prospects for that sweet precious cap space. I hope at some point this franchise will have the mindset to save some cap space for these opportunities. But I think with our cap situation and very little cap space for anyone around the league that we use this to our advantage before the cap rises up in 2024. 

 

Let’s be clear. I wasn’t a Benning supporter after the 2018 off-season when it was then that we SHOULD HAVE REBUILT the team after the Sedin’s retired. We know the story TL left the franchise he bled for because of the direction that ownership and JB were going instead of his vision of building this

team up through the draft. Rather than paying 4th liners 3+ mill with long term instead of finishing the core being built with EP and QH. Plus it was a time that our core was not impatient to win because the little core we had were just joining the team (Demko,Petey and heck Hughes just was drafted. Our whole contention window is £^€!%* up because our Captain,Miller and Petey won’t want to stay with this team if we aren’t competing. Four seasons we have literally been wasted because the boss has impatience to never do the R word and that might cost some of our core to want out because we are wasting their careers just spinning our tires pretending that we are competitive. I completely agree with you here that we are in this position because of him and his short sighted vision of “just make the playoffs and anything can happen” I was only saying that the flat cap was due to covid wasn’t his fault but being so close to the cap and having no pipeline and picks certainly is. No argument there.

My expectations of how quickly this team can turn the defense around has changed in the last few weeks. It’ll be a slow burn this season to fix that right side, but here’s hoping the management we have now can dictate how much cap control we have, rather than the spend spend spend to get in in in! (the playoffs) 

Edited July 28, 2022 by EP Phone Home