[Proposal] Canucks - Red Wings Bo Knows the Motor City sign and trade

[wai_lai416]

lol there's literally no way bo would sign for a penny less than Miller with any team right now.. not with the way his season is going.. if Miller can get 8mil being 2 years older? horvat will get as much if not more if he keeps up his current season.. doesn't matter if horvat reaches 99 points or not.. in this league goals are worth more than assist. he's over a ppg he kills penalty he takes 1600+ faceoff a season and he's been on fire goal scoring wise since the 2nd half of last season and continued on this season. i really don't see bo doing the canucks a favor at this point and sign/trade to maximize the return.. especially how he's been treated by this current management with the lowball offers. i mean if you are going to be going to a team you are interested in staying for long term.. why wouldn't you just sign with them in the off season and cost them no asset if you are interested in winning a cup? why would you deplete all the asset of your new team you are trying to win a cup with instead of letting them keep it and use it on an actual cup run.  

[DownUndaCanuck]

Detroit have a lot of players to re-sign this coming off-season so lots of flexibility to re-sign Bo. Surely he makes 8M and quite a lengthy contract so they'll have to build Larkin and co. around his monster deal, but Bo puts Detroit into a playoff team-worthy realm.

 

I doubt Yzerman is stupid enough to part with their top prospects, but for the sake of it, I think value-wise Bo is worth something like this:

 

1) Edvinsson + 2nd round pick or later

2) Bergren/Kasper + 2nd

3) Johansson + 1st + depth player (eg. 3rd or 4th liner)

4) Wallinder + 1st + depth player

 

Problem is all their depth players are playing well so it might be an AHLer or C grade prospect coming back.

 

I'd do Wallinder + 1st + 3rd for Bo to be fair if it signals the start of a full rebuild.

If we're re-tooling, aim for Edvinsson or Kasper.

 

Yzerman isn't a fool, he's not going to give up 1sts or top prospects easily so we will probably not get the haul everyone here expects.

[JeremyCuddles]

At 7mil why wouldn't we just keep him? Move Miller for anything we can get.

[cripplereh]

On 11/22/2022 at 7:26 PM, Odjick 4 Premier said:

Would you want to sign for 8 years to stay in the tire fire known as the Canucks?

Yes he would love to stay.

[cripplereh]

On 11/23/2022 at 2:40 AM, DownUndaCanuck said:

Detroit have a lot of players to re-sign this coming off-season so lots of flexibility to re-sign Bo. Surely he makes 8M and quite a lengthy contract so they'll have to build Larkin and co. around his monster deal, but Bo puts Detroit into a playoff team-worthy realm.

 

I doubt Yzerman is stupid enough to part with their top prospects, but for the sake of it, I think value-wise Bo is worth something like this:

 

1) Edvinsson + 2nd round pick or later

2) Bergren/Kasper + 2nd

3) Johansson + 1st + depth player (eg. 3rd or 4th liner)

4) Wallinder + 1st + depth player

 

Problem is all their depth players are playing well so it might be an AHLer or C grade prospect coming back.

 

I'd do Wallinder + 1st + 3rd for Bo to be fair if it signals the start of a full rebuild.

If we're re-tooling, aim for Edvinsson or Kasper.

 

Yzerman isn't a fool, he's not going to give up 1sts or top prospects easily so we will probably not get the haul everyone here expects.

Nope Yzerman will wait and outbid teams to get him for free.

[IBatch]

On 11/22/2022 at 10:22 PM, luckylager said:

He's not signing anywhere for 7m. Not even Florida

Enter an Annual Salary

Compare Taxes of Two Teams

Florida Panthers

(36.47% x $7,000,000)

$2,552,955

Vancouver Canucks

(53.33% x $7,000,000)

$3,733,242

Difference in Tax Paid

$1,180,287

Compare Taxes

 

Don't be so sure.   Same as Vegas, Dallas, Seattle, Tampa Bay .... and not that far off COL.  

 

We could pay Horvat over 8, and he'd still make more money in those places.   You can absolutely be sure that this matters to these guys. 

[Alflives]

7 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Enter an Annual Salary

 

Compare Taxes of Two Teams

Florida Panthers

(36.47% x $7,000,000)

$2,552,955

Vancouver Canucks

(53.33% x $7,000,000)

$3,733,242

Difference in Tax Paid

$1,180,287

Compare Taxes

 

Don't be so sure.   Same as Vegas, Dallas, Seattle, Tampa Bay .... and not that far off COL.  

 

We could pay Horvat over 8, and he'd still make more money in those places.   You can absolutely be sure that this matters to these guys. 

Canadian dollar is 20% less.  Guys up here are paid in US dollars.  So after converting to our dollar they end up with more.  

[IBatch]

On 11/23/2022 at 3:40 AM, wai_lai416 said:

lol there's literally no way bo would sign for a penny less than Miller with any team right now.. not with the way his season is going.. if Miller can get 8mil being 2 years older? horvat will get as much if not more if he keeps up his current season.. doesn't matter if horvat reaches 99 points or not.. in this league goals are worth more than assist. he's over a ppg he kills penalty he takes 1600+ faceoff a season and he's been on fire goal scoring wise since the 2nd half of last season and continued on this season. i really don't see bo doing the canucks a favor at this point and sign/trade to maximize the return.. especially how he's been treated by this current management with the lowball offers. i mean if you are going to be going to a team you are interested in staying for long term.. why wouldn't you just sign with them in the off season and cost them no asset if you are interested in winning a cup? why would you deplete all the asset of your new team you are trying to win a cup with instead of letting them keep it and use it on an actual cup run.  

Before this season felt that 7 was fair.   He wasn't as good as Couture (same taxes - 8 x 8),  but better the Hayes ( 7 x 7)  Those were his comps.   The range 49-64 million.    For sure 7 x 8 was fair.   Horvat didn't do much the first half of last year.   Then exploded down the stretch.   And for those who think he didn't get the best wingers, i'd go and check again, everyone played with everyone last year.    The Lotto line was terrible, and dismantled.    Pearson was actually part of every good line ... as far as scoring more goals then letting in.   Miller was on 3 of the top 4 line combo's, Horvat only one.   5 x 5.   Horvat also feasted on the PP.   
 

Now all bets are off.    30 goals in 39 games is close to half a season...when he doesn't score it's strange lol.   AND this year he's scoring 5 x 5.     

 

Always worries me when a player has a career year just before free agency.   But it does coincide to his age.   Naslund and the Sedins also took the next step around Horvats age last Spring.    Naslund rattled off 3 consecutive 40 plus goal seasons,  maybe Horvat can too.  

 

Now a Skinner or Couture type deal seems reasonable.    He's going to get more money then Miller now.   8 x 8 here or 9 x 7 somewhere else IF he keeps it up for the year.    I'm fine with trading Horvat or signing him - but both have to come with a plan that isn't half measured. 

[IBatch]

12 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Canadian dollar is 20% less.  Guys up here are paid in US dollars.  So after converting to our dollar they end up with more.  

We've had this discussion before.   Anyone in the US can buy property and spend their money here too.    These guys have houses all over the place.    You have a lot more buying power with 1.18 million x 8 then you don't...and that's just a 7 million dollar deal.   Bobrovsky takes home more money than McDavid does.   He's actually one of the biggest earners in the league right now.    McKinnon more than Bob by a fair margin with his new deal.   There taxes are 41% ...

 

Edit:  One million US in Florida buys you something that would cost 2-3 in Vancouver as well.   Both in TB and Miami.  2 million it's palatial.  That costs 10-15 million in Vancouver.    It does matter.   Same with TO and MTL.  Sports cars are half the price.   

Edited November 29, 2022 by IBatch

[luckylager]

2 hours ago, IBatch said:

Enter an Annual Salary

 

Compare Taxes of Two Teams

Florida Panthers

(36.47% x $7,000,000)

$2,552,955

Vancouver Canucks

(53.33% x $7,000,000)

$3,733,242

Difference in Tax Paid

$1,180,287

Compare Taxes

 

Don't be so sure.   Same as Vegas, Dallas, Seattle, Tampa Bay .... and not that far off COL.  

 

We could pay Horvat over 8, and he'd still make more money in those places.   You can absolutely be sure that this matters to these guys. 

We all know this.

 

But Horvat still isnt signing for 7m. EVEN IN FLORIDA

[wai_lai416]

3 hours ago, IBatch said:

Before this season felt that 7 was fair.   He wasn't as good as Couture (same taxes - 8 x 8),  but better the Hayes ( 7 x 7)  Those were his comps.   The range 49-64 million.    For sure 7 x 8 was fair.   Horvat didn't do much the first half of last year.   Then exploded down the stretch.   And for those who think he didn't get the best wingers, i'd go and check again, everyone played with everyone last year.    The Lotto line was terrible, and dismantled.    Pearson was actually part of every good line ... as far as scoring more goals then letting in.   Miller was on 3 of the top 4 line combo's, Horvat only one.   5 x 5.   Horvat also feasted on the PP.   
 

Now all bets are off.    30 goals in 39 games is close to half a season...when he doesn't score it's strange lol.   AND this year he's scoring 5 x 5.     

 

Always worries me when a player has a career year just before free agency.   But it does coincide to his age.   Naslund and the Sedins also took the next step around Horvats age last Spring.    Naslund rattled off 3 consecutive 40 plus goal seasons,  maybe Horvat can too.  

 

Now a Skinner or Couture type deal seems reasonable.    He's going to get more money then Miller now.   8 x 8 here or 9 x 7 somewhere else IF he keeps it up for the year.    I'm fine with trading Horvat or signing him - but both have to come with a plan that isn't half measured. 

It’s just funny to me when people were making the case for signing miller and getting rid of Horvat they were like miller will only get better.. meanwhile Horvat have already hit his peak.. oh well I’m sure they’ll still argue miller is better even though he’s not even playing center anymore. I’m happier if they sign Horvat and try to move one of miller/boeser and or garland. If they move Horvat I hope it’s a full blown rebuild. I honestly don’t see the team being competitive enough moving Horvat and whatever return and other trades to be able to convince EP to sign long term. With 6 player hovering around a ppg clip right now. We have potential to lose 3 of them this year and another next year. Horvat kuz boeser, ep next year via trade because he won’t commit to a rebuild 

[IBatch]

1 hour ago, luckylager said:

We all know this.

 

But Horvat still isnt signing for 7m. EVEN IN FLORIDA

All is in part because i've been beating this drum for 4 years now.    Thanks for acknowledging that we all know this.  Vancouver, TO, MTL are all at a distinct disadvantage when it comes to cap.   Back during the peak Sedin era, taxes weren't an issue because we didn't have a left wing government, and paid the exact same as CAL and EDM.   Jock tax in the US both CALI and NY teams paid more.   Since then, Vegas and Seattle.   It's a pretty lopsided equation now.   I'm not a fan of super power go all Swede ... but do get it's one of the few competitive advantages we have, it's not real estate or the weather that's for sure. Losing 7% on our tax bracket hurt a lot.  

[IBatch]

51 minutes ago, wai_lai416 said:

It’s just funny to me when people were making the case for signing miller and getting rid of Horvat they were like miller will only get better.. meanwhile Horvat have already hit his peak.. oh well I’m sure they’ll still argue miller is better even though he’s not even playing center anymore. I’m happier if they sign Horvat and try to move one of miller/boeser and or garland. If they move Horvat I hope it’s a full blown rebuild. I honestly don’t see the team being competitive enough moving Horvat and whatever return and other trades to be able to convince EP to sign long term. With 6 player hovering around a ppg clip right now. We have potential to lose 3 of them this year and another next year. Horvat kuz boeser, ep next year via trade because he won’t commit to a rebuild 

We aren't getting rid of Miller.   But Miller Horvat ?  makes a good line for quite some time.   There is no reason we can't keep both.   And well it's not like the pair is going to cost us 21.5% of cap like the Sedins did then when re-upped at 33 cost us 21.8% of the cap is it.   Or 13.6% of the cap all by himself in Naslund did.    We don't have to moan about Miller vs Horvat.   Horvat has only played 39 games scoring like this so far. I bet if he scores 30 next year at 8 then everyone will freak the F out too.  That said ... it's still better than both Naslund and all but one year with the Sedins.  

 

Edit:  By the time Horvat and Miller are 33 and 35, they won't cost us 21.8% of the cap.   Probably less than 15% and still scoring around the same amount of points.   Make sense?   In other words, compared to the Sedins, they are a bargain. Compared to Naslund a bigger bargain.    They shouldn't be played against each other.    They are not getting the same money they did cap percentage wise not really even close.   And Miller did score 99 points last year.   And did more then the Sedins did too before his current deal. 

 

EP.   If he won't "commit" he sits.   And we trade him.   Good riddance. Doubt it comes to that either way.  We own his rights for two more seasons.   Just qualify him.   That one comment was the right answer and it was a swedish source.   What's he supposed to say?  "I love losing so love this team".    Please stop worrying about EP.   He's an RFA.   And won't sit.   

Edited November 29, 2022 by IBatch

[wai_lai416]

3 hours ago, IBatch said:

We aren't getting rid of Miller.   But Miller Horvat ?  makes a good line for quite some time.   There is no reason we can't keep both.   And well it's not like the pair is going to cost us 21.5% of cap like the Sedins did then when re-upped at 33 cost us 21.8% of the cap is it.   Or 13.6% of the cap all by himself in Naslund did.    We don't have to moan about Miller vs Horvat.   Horvat has only played 39 games scoring like this so far. I bet if he scores 30 next year at 8 then everyone will freak the F out too.  That said ... it's still better than both Naslund and all but one year with the Sedins.  

 

Edit:  By the time Horvat and Miller are 33 and 35, they won't cost us 21.8% of the cap.   Probably less than 15% and still scoring around the same amount of points.   Make sense?   In other words, compared to the Sedins, they are a bargain. Compared to Naslund a bigger bargain.    They shouldn't be played against each other.    They are not getting the same money they did cap percentage wise not really even close.   And Miller did score 99 points last year.   And did more then the Sedins did too before his current deal. 

 

EP.   If he won't "commit" he sits.   And we trade him.   Good riddance. Doubt it comes to that either way.  We own his rights for two more seasons.   Just qualify him.   That one comment was the right answer and it was a swedish source.   What's he supposed to say?  "I love losing so love this team".    Please stop worrying about EP.   He's an RFA.   And won't sit.   

Who said anything about ep sitting? He’s going to get qualified the teams going to take him to arbitration to prevent him from signing the qualifying and end up trading him if they can’t get a deal next season. If we mis the playoff this year.. chances are we prolly miss it next year too unless they somehow manage to fix the defence with limited cap. If he signs his QO? Then his value plummets to nothing more than a rental. Chances of JR signing Horvat? Prolly low. He’s not going to admit to his mistake of lowballing Horvat rather than a legitimate offer and getting it done and now cost at least 1mil if not higher per year just to sign him