The Canucks would be better off moving Elias Pettersson than Bo Horvat

[IBatch]

Bad idea.   If we had to go there - start with QHs.   Maybe there is a trade there that works.    Our D needs a re-model - using the forward group but not EP. 

[EddieVedder]

13 hours ago, Alflives said:

If Chicago would do Jones for Brock and Pearson that would be great.  

Jones stinks.  

Why do you like players with no heart or intensity?  

[Wise Guy]

Petey, do we really need him?

[TheRussianRocket1994]

On 12/17/2022 at 4:12 PM, Ruthervin said:

The Canucks would be better off moving Elias Pettersson than Bo Horvat

 

The “narrative” amongst many media members and fans is that the Canucks should build around Pettersson, Demko, and Hughes while attempting to trade pretty much anyone else (ie Horvat, Kuzmenko, Garland, and Miller/OEL/Boeser if they are at all moveable).   The problem with that strategy however is as follows:

 

1) If the Canucks choose to do a rebuild, you will waste the prime years of Hughes and Demko where they are on good cap hits.  By the time the Canucks were to emerge out of a retool, guys like Hughes and Demko would be at or near contract expiration.   
 

2) If the Canucks go through another rebuild, there’s a risk that Pettersson will not want to stay here, and will pull a Matt Tkachuk.  Yes, JP Barry went on the air yesterday and mentioned that Petey loves it here, and sees the Matt Barzal contract as a comparable, but there are no guarantees.  Petey has also stated in the past that he wants to win a cup and that if he doesn’t feel the organization is progressing, he’d consider all options (didn’t say this explicitly but rather implied it).

 

3) Guys like Garland, OEL, Mikheyev, Kuzmenko, and Miller were specifically brought in here and/or signed here because they were lead to believe that the Canucks would be pushing towards being competitive and pushing towards being a playoff team.  IF Rutherford-Alvin went off in a different direction at this point, it would send a TERRIBLE message to these players, as well as future free agents. Like it or not, the Canucks made their decision about this organization with the Miller signing.  With Miller and OEL here for the long term and basically being almost impossible to move, the Canucks have to push forward with this core:

 

[b]Now, you may be asking, “well what the hell does this have to do with wanting to keep Horvat over Pettersson?” [/b]

 

The answer is as follows:   The Canucks biggest organizational weakness right now is their team structure. Although they are very deep up front, many of these forwards aren’t very good on the back check….which is problematic since our defense is very anemic…..which ultimately results in the Canucks giving uo and inordinately high number of high danger chances.  The ONLY way to fix this deep structural flaw is to acquire an elite top pairing right handed defenseman that can not only help elevate Hughes to the top pairing but can also serve as that “shut down” all situations horse that can minimize Hughes’ weaknesses while maximizing Hughes strengths.  A younger version of Chris Tanev……the Brent Seabrook to Quinn Hughes’ Duncan Keith if you will.  The Canucks need someone like Noah Dobson or Braden Schneider (I won’t mention Moritz Seider because he’s untouchable now), and the only guy that the Canucks have that can acquire such a piece is Elias Pettersson.  
 

While a guy like Horvat will fetch you a 1st rounder and a decent prospect, he’s not going to fetch you the next Brent Seabrook which is EXACTLY what this team needs both short term and long term.  With the Canucks being structurally flawed, it wouldn’t matter if we had Connor McDavid in this team (instead of Horvat).  Hell, it wouldn’t even matter if the Canucks had a very deep prospect pool.  The Canucks, as they are right now, would be doomed to fail because of their tire fire defense.  The only way to fix that is to trade Pettersson for an elite RD.  By doing that, it would create a rippling effect.  
 

Hughes-[PetterssonTrade]
OEL-Bear

Schenn-Myers

 

With [PetterssonTrade], you’d elevate Hughes to the top pairing and have a guy that would help maximize Hughes’ strengths while minimizing his weaknesses.  Similar to what Chris Tanev did in 2019-2020.  OEL-Bear would then avoid taking on the toughest match ups while Schenn could help carry Myers on the 3rd pairing.  Eventually, once Pearson and Myers come off the books, you could have the following structure:

 

Hughes-[PetterssonTrade]
#####-Bear

OEL-####
 

You can sign a good 2nd pairing dman to play with Bear on the 2nd pairing while OEL can play on the 3rd pairing with someone cheap.

 

Defensive structure problem solved.

 

Now, up front?  At center, I would roll with the following:   
 

#####-Horvat#####
#####-Miller-#####
#####-New 3rd line C####
 

Yes, Horvat and Miller as your 1-2 punch down the middle wouldn’t be elite, but it would still be pretty solid….and if the Canucks were to somehow acquire a decent 3rd line center (which is WAY easier than acquiring an elite top pairing RD), then the Canucks would be a very balanced team…..a team that could choose to roll four lines instead of being too heavy.   
 

So, this is what I ultimately propose:

 

1) Trade Pettersson for an elite top pairing RD and a decent 3rd line center. Noah Dobson or Braden Schneider.  So maybe, Pettersson and Schenn for Braden Schneider and Filip Chytl or Pettersson and Schenn for Noah Dobson and Jean Gabriel Pageau.

 

2) Sign Horvat 

 

3) Sign Kuzmenko

 

4) Trade Boeser for a 3rd line center if you don’t trade for a 3rd line C in my 1st move.  So maybe Boeser to Montreal for Monahan if we don’t get Chytyl or Pageau.

 

5) Trade Connor Garland for a draft pick.  This will give us cap space

 

6) If we don’t trade Luke Schenn in my first idea, then move Schenn for a draft pick at the deadline. 
 

7) In the off-season, consider using a sweetener to move Myers and use that money on a good defenseman that can play with Bear on the 2nd pairing.

 

New future lines:

 

Kuzmenko-Horvat-Lazar

Mikheyev-Miller-Hoglander

Pearson-[BoeserTrade]-Podkolzin

#####-Aman-Joshua

 

Hughes-[PetterssonTrade]
#####-Bear

OEL-####
 

Demko

Martin

 

 

 

[TGT68]

Personally still think know it all Miller is the one thay needs to go. 

 

I also put no stock in those of you that say Miller is not a Center amd forget he did the 99 points last year at Center.  He is playing wing this year because he is not putting in the effort.  

[alt kilgore]

5 minutes ago, TGT68 said:

Personally still think know it all Miller is the one thay needs to go. 

 

I also put no stock in those of you that say Miller is not a Center amd forget he did the 99 points last year at Center.  He is playing wing this year because he is not putting in the effort.  

Miller and his contract are the least of the Canucks problems.  I don't get the obsession with him.  He's still producing almost a point a game, even in what some would call a slump.  There's a reason why he got the contract he did, and would have gotten from other teams too. Let's enjoy him here instead of b%^&$#ing about some future prediction of when his play actually does decline with age.  He'll be a stud for us for probably 4/5 years more I'd think. And IMO is built like a player that will play in the league a long time.  The situation where a team buys out the player in his last years of his contract is normal operating procedure in most hockey orgs. 

 

Of course, if the offer was too good to resist, no one is untouchable, but if not and he stays?.....Love it! A huge part of this team's success, and helps with Petey's success too.

[Phat Fingers]

Wha?

 

sorry, as much as Bo is on Fire, the up side in Pettersson is another level and the complete game is going to improve.

 

with Bo it’s about cost, and this team has great assets but is unbalanced and it’s weakness needs to be fixed or the whole team cannot succeed.

 

I would move Brock and Bo and then see what the team is like. 
 

Getting someone on Defence with upside in the return is essential.

 

think the Rutherford Alvin group is here to let a stealth tank for Beddard… I will wear a tinfoil hat and say, with Demko on the shelf, this team is not making the playoffs.

 

most teams lose their starting goalie have low odds of success.

 

Bruce is here because why hire a new coach when the goal is a shot at the wunderkid.

 

The room is in upheaval and this gives RutherfordAlvin the green light to do whatever the heck they want for about the next six to eight months.  
 

Still think it’s nuts, bonkers, and goofy to even think of dealing Hughes or Pettersson.  
 

Bo is gone no matter what anyone wants.  He wants a different look and knows he is getting a monster deal.

 

 

 

but it’s great clip bait,

Edited December 24, 2022 by Phat Fingers

[Alflives]

8 minutes ago, Phat Fingers said:

Wha?

 

sorry, as much as Bo is on Fire, the up side in Pettersson is another level and the complete game is going to improve.

 

with Bo it’s about cost, and this team has great assets but is unbalanced and it’s weakness needs to be fixed or the whole team cannot succeed.

 

I would move Brock and Bo and then see what the team is like. 
 

Getting someone on Defence with upside in the return is essential.

 

think the Rutherford Alvin group is here to let a stealth tank for Beddard… I will wear a tinfoil hat and say, with Demko on the shelf, this team is not making the playoffs.

 

most teams lose their starting goalie have low odds of success.

 

Bruce is here because why hire a new coach when the goal is a shot at the wunderkid.

 

The room is in upheaval and this gives RutherfordAlvin the green light to do whatever the heck they want for about the next six to eight months.  
 

Still think it’s nuts, bonkers, and goofy to even think of dealing Hughes or Pettersson.  
 

Bo is gone no matter what anyone wants.  He wants a different look and knows he is getting a monster deal.

 

 

 

but it’s great clip bait,

Bo and his wife have a house here and both the kids were born here too.  I’m thinking this is their home.  Bo will sign an extension with us.  Incoming 56 million.  7 mil x 8 years. 

[TGT68]

3 hours ago, kilgore said:

Miller and his contract are the least of the Canucks problems.  I don't get the obsession with him.  He's still producing almost a point a game, even in what some would call a slump.  There's a reason why he got the contract he did, and would have gotten from other teams too. Let's enjoy him here instead of b%^&$#ing about some future prediction of when his play actually does decline with age.  He'll be a stud for us for probably 4/5 years more I'd think. And IMO is built like a player that will play in the league a long time.  The situation where a team buys out the player in his last years of his contract is normal operating procedure in most hockey orgs. 

 

Of course, if the offer was too good to resist, no one is untouchable, but if not and he stays?.....Love it! A huge part of this team's success, and helps with Petey's success too.

The issue is his attitude not his production.  

[Ruthervin]

4 hours ago, kilgore said:

Miller and his contract are the least of the Canucks problems.  I don't get the obsession with him.  He's still producing almost a point a game, even in what some would call a slump.  There's a reason why he got the contract he did, and would have gotten from other teams too. Let's enjoy him here instead of b%^&$#ing about some future prediction of when his play actually does decline with age.  He'll be a stud for us for probably 4/5 years more I'd think. And IMO is built like a player that will play in the league a long time.  The situation where a team buys out the player in his last years of his contract is normal operating procedure in most hockey orgs. 

 

Of course, if the offer was too good to resist, no one is untouchable, but if not and he stays?.....Love it! A huge part of this team's success, and helps with Petey's success too.

There is nothing wrong with Miller.  He’s doing pretty much everything he’s done since he’s been here.  Unfortunately, many radical left media and fans have decided to make Miller their whipping boy since they disagreed with management’s decision to keep him.  It’s unfortunate, but Canucks media is one of the pettiest media in all of pro sports.  Many fans on Twitter and HF Canucks act in a similar manner.  Sad!

 

Personally, I don’t think rebuilding is an option for this team as we have too many unmovable contracts to truly commit to a rebuild.  We pretty much have to go all in with this team.  In my opinion?  We should sign Horvat and Kuzmenko but find a way to move Garland and/Boeser for cap space.  Use a sweetener to move Myer in the off season if necessary.  Hopefully, a healthy Dermott can replace Myers.

[Gurn]

32 minutes ago, Ruthervin said:

There is nothing wrong with Miller.  

1 he is so poor defensively that he got moved to winger

2 and he will soon be paid a bit too much money for way too long a contract

[Ruthervin]

37 minutes ago, Gurn said:

1 he is so poor defensively that he got moved to winger

2 and he will soon be paid a bit too much money for way too long a contract

1) he has always been very poor defensively.

2) As proved last season, he has other positive attributes that would justify his cap hit (his offensive production during his tenure as a Canuck, his leadership, etc.)

 

In my opinion, the crucial mistake Alvin/Rutherford made was in re-signing Boeser.  

[Gurn]

4 minutes ago, Ruthervin said:

In my opinion, the crucial mistake Alvin/Rutherford made was in re-signing Boeser.

It might be their first crucial mistake but it wasn't the last.

Seems anytime this new management team has a bit of cap space they fill it all up again.

Getting more wingers, when a main problem is D men.

Not trading Miller or Bo at last trade deadline

Not trading Miller or Bo during this off season.

Myself I'd prefer they moved Miller, due to his age and I figured last season would make it too expensive a deal. The money was less than I thought, but the term sucks.

 

 

 

[Phat Fingers]

12 hours ago, Alflives said:

Bo and his wife have a house here and both the kids were born here too.  I’m thinking this is their home.  Bo will sign an extension with us.  Incoming 56 million.  7 mil x 8 years. 

He turned that offer down Alf.

 

He is looking at a bigger deal, or playing elsewhere.

 

His and hers family are all back in Ontario, so the ties cut both ways.

 

at this point in a long relationship, if the renewal of vows isnt welcome by both sides, then there is a divorce coming.

 

I learned that last one the hard way… my wife had signed with a different club before the season was over… lol. But yup.  

Edited December 25, 2022 by Phat Fingers

[Ruthervin]

11 hours ago, Phat Fingers said:

 

I learned that last one the hard way… my wife had signed with a different club before the season was over… lol. But yup.  

Well, it’s only a problem if the new club gave her an extension but if not, maybe you can resign her in the off season?

Edited December 25, 2022 by Ruthervin

[Spoosh]

On 12/18/2022 at 2:12 AM, Ruthervin said:

 

The Canucks would be better off moving Elias Pettersson than Bo Horvat

 

Said no-one ever.

[Ruthervin]

30 minutes ago, Spoosh said:

Said no-one ever.

Michael Jackson also thinks it would be better to move Petey.

[alt kilgore]

On 12/24/2022 at 3:42 PM, Ruthervin said:

There is nothing wrong with Miller.  He’s doing pretty much everything he’s done since he’s been here.  Unfortunately, many radical left media and fans have decided to make Miller their whipping boy since they disagreed with management’s decision to keep him.  It’s unfortunate, but Canucks media is one of the pettiest media in all of pro sports.  Many fans on Twitter and HF Canucks act in a similar manner.  Sad!

 

Personally, I don’t think rebuilding is an option for this team as we have too many unmovable contracts to truly commit to a rebuild.  We pretty much have to go all in with this team.  In my opinion?  We should sign Horvat and Kuzmenko but find a way to move Garland and/Boeser for cap space.  Use a sweetener to move Myer in the off season if necessary.  Hopefully, a healthy Dermott can replace Myers.

I agree with the opinion that the sports media in town and finicky fans swayed by them are way off base crying about Miller’s contract. And despite Bo's miracle contract year surge, I'd take Miller over Bo in a heartbeat if we were going to risk only one for a long term signing
 

But wtf are you on about the “radical left wing media”? You realize that sports and politics are two different things right? In fact one of the best things about sports is how it can unite folks of all stripes. With the Canucks it's probably more about b&$@#ing and moaning together than anything .  

 

Point in fact, we agree on Miller but IMO the general news media leans heavily to the right, not left. I hardly doubt the multi millionaires that own and control them are commies. They rely on big corporate ad business, which is why any truly "radical left" voices rarely get their voices heard, or they are portrayed as anarchist punks.

[DrJockitch]

8 minutes ago, kilgore said:

I agree with the opinion that the sports media in town and finicky fans swayed by them are way off base crying about Miller’s contract. And despite Bo's miracle contract year surge, I'd take Miller over Bo in a heartbeat if we were going to risk only one for a long term signing
 

But wtf are you on about the “radical left wing media”? You realize that sports and politics are two different things right? In fact one of the best things about sports is how it can unite folks of all stripes. With the Canucks it's probably more about b&$@#ing and moaning together than anything .  

 

Point in fact, we agree on Miller but IMO the general news media leans heavily to the right, not left. I hardly doubt the multi millionaires that own and control them are commies. They rely on big corporate ad business, which is why any truly "radical left" voices rarely get their voices heard, or they are portrayed as anarchist punks.

Some people have just got the simplistic approach that if I don’t agree with something it is “insert media boogeyman here”.  It is silly, simplistic and reductive and unfortunately working in politics. 
I just don’t think Miller is as good as most on here do, is a winger, not a centre and was the wrong age range to lock up long term for a team that is built around EP. 
He helps put us in this cap mess we are in, will lead to the loss of the more important player in Bo and moves us further and further from being a cup contender. 

Edited December 26, 2022 by DrJockitch

[Gurn]

12 minutes ago, kilgore said:

I agree with the opinion that the sports media in town and finicky fans swayed by them are way off base crying about Miller’s contract. And despite Bo's miracle contract year surge, I'd take Miller over Bo in a heartbeat if we were going to risk only one for a long term signing
 

But wtf are you on about the “radical left wing media”? You realize that sports and politics are two different things right? In fact one of the best things about sports is how it can unite folks of all stripes. With the Canucks it's probably more about b&$@#ing and moaning together than anything .  

 

Point in fact, we agree on Miller but IMO the general news media leans heavily to the right, not left. I hardly doubt the multi millionaires that own and control them are commies. They rely on big corporate ad business, which is why any truly "radical left" voices rarely get their voices heard, or they are portrayed as anarchist punks.

And the bait is taken.