[Trade] Canucks trade Bo Horvat to Islanders for Anthony Beauvillier, Aatu Raty, 2023 1st-round draft pick

[coryberg]

7 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

That's a great point.  Barzal had his best season when Tavares was on the team.  After Tavares left, Barzal's numbers dropped.  I don't think it's a coincidence that Barzal went from 85 points in his rookie year with Tavares on the team to 62 points the following year after Tavares left.  That's a huge one year drop.

 

Meanwhile, Tavares numbers are almost identical in Toronto as they were in New York, so that tells you how consistent Tavares has been even in a different system. 

 

 

That would be a given seeing as barzal would have taken the brunt of the opposition's focus. Not hard to understand at all.

 

As for Tavares' first season after leaving the isles? He had his best season ever, scored 10 more goals than the season before (12 more at even strength) with less ice time. The fact that he has maintained his point totals despite his advanced age would definitely indicate a more beneficial system. Also interesting that he has received selke votes in 6 seasons over his career, 5 of those were with the islanders where he had to be more defensively responsible.

 

 

[IBatch]

3 minutes ago, mll said:

 

Tavares' departure coincides with the arrival of Lou Lamoriello and Barry Trotz.  Likely has far more to do with that change up in management/coaching then it had to do with Tavares leaving.

 

Tavares' last season in NYI was 2017/18.  Lamoriello was hired in May 2018.  Washington won the Cup that year and Trotz left right after and signed with NYI.  

 

Under Weight NYI was trying to outscore their defensive mistakes and were last in goals against while being 7th in goals for.  

 

Lamoriello's mindset was (and still is) defence 1st.  That 1st season under Trotz they were the only team that allowed less than 200 goals against - 102 goals against less than the previous season (293 to 191).  They became a responsible and sound defensive team.  Trotz was all about limiting risks and not cheating for offence.  

 

They went from a possession team with high turnover rates in the neutral zone to the team that dumped it in the most, and had one of the most efficient entry rates where they only entered the zone if there was a safe way to do it without the risk of a turnover.   It obviously impacted the numbers of all their offensive players.  They were trying to limit goals against and win those low scoring games.  They made the playoffs that year.  

 

Yes.   Trotz didn't seem to "lower scoring in WSH" on the way to the cup either.   Of course losing Tavares made a huge impact.    Regardless of who is coaching (Lou isn't coaching, how did it go in TO when he was there?).    NJ and Lou ... as I pointed out, they weren't always just defense first.   One of their cup years, the led the East (maybe the league too, can't remember) in offense!   Kind of doesn't get acknowledged much.    Mogilny's cup, and Mogilny wasn't exactly lighting it up by then either.    Just a lot of guys who could add offense added up.  

 

Trotz for sure is famous for his D systems.   A lot of that also has to do with his NSH years, where all his best players were defenseman.   Trotz has talked about this in length, he works with what a team has - and doesn't like that people consider him a defensive minded and defense first coach.   With NYI, he got his teams to the conference final two years in a row, very impressive considering the roster.    NSH, made it to the final too.   All those years with Poile and Trotz ... best buddies for life lol.   Poile also said he tried to give Trotz more to work with upfront.   But it wasn't enough.    

 

Let's see how NYI does now with a new coach.   And their current roster (Horvat of course the main addition, two centers to work with).    EP without Horvat or Horvat without EP.   You can bet that would make an impact (and no Miller).   I

[canuck73_3]

40 minutes ago, Jester13 said:

Seider is much, much better than you make him out to be. The guy is an absolute beast, and I recommend watching him more in action. 

Alfs Seider takes are beyond awful 

[mll]

31 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Yes.   Trotz didn't seem to "lower scoring in WSH" on the way to the cup either.   Of course losing Tavares made a huge impact.    Regardless of who is coaching (Lou isn't coaching, how did it go in TO when he was there?).    NJ and Lou ... as I pointed out, they weren't always just defense first.   One of their cup years, the led the East (maybe the league too, can't remember) in offense!   Kind of doesn't get acknowledged much.    Mogilny's cup, and Mogilny wasn't exactly lighting it up by then either.    Just a lot of guys who could add offense added up.  

 

Trotz for sure is famous for his D systems.   A lot of that also has to do with his NSH years, where all his best players were defenseman.   Trotz has talked about this in length, he works with what a team has - and doesn't like that people consider him a defensive minded and defense first coach.   With NYI, he got his teams to the conference final two years in a row, very impressive considering the roster.    NSH, made it to the final too.   All those years with Poile and Trotz ... best buddies for life lol.   Poile also said he tried to give Trotz more to work with upfront.   But it wasn't enough.    

 

Let's see how NYI does now with a new coach.   And their current roster (Horvat of course the main addition, two centers to work with).    EP without Horvat or Horvat without EP.   You can bet that would make an impact (and no Miller).   I

Lamoriello has repeated to no end that he believes you win by playing defence.  Even after replacing Trotz with Lambert he again re-iterated that they are a defensive team 1st.  Says he's a goal differential kind of guy - he's looking to win the low scoring 1 goal games.  Was a very different mindset than under Doug Weight.  

 

As for Trotz he again recently explained that he coached the roster he was given (- that's why he wants to now have coaching/roster/drafting all align).  Washington had far more offensive fire power than NYI.  He didn't feel they could win by playing offence in NYI so he had them play defence 1st which is also what Lamoriello wanted. 

 

Can't really expect same production when players are allowed to cheat on offence.  Easier to score when entering with possession and cheating to get a head start vs dumping the puck and having to battle back for it.

 

Edited July 25, 2023 by mll

[IBatch]

6 minutes ago, mll said:

Lamoriello has repeated to no end that he believes you win by playing defence.  Even after replacing Trotz with Lambert he again re-iterated that they are a defensive team 1st.  Says he's a goal differential kind of guy - he's looking to win the low scoring 1 goal games.  Was a very different mindset than under Doug Weight.  

 

As for Trotz he again recently explained that he coached the roster he was given (- that's why he wants to now have coaching/roster/drafting all align).  Washington had far more offensive fire power than NYI.  He didn't feel they could win by playing offence in NYI so he had them play defence 1st which is also what Lamoriello wanted. 

 

Can't really expect same production when players are allowed to cheat on offence.  Easier to score when entering with possession and cheating to get a head start vs dumping the puck and having to battle back for it.

 

Im well aware of Lou's teams.   And how it affected and changed the game in the 90's.   Made it much easier with what was allowed back then.   Lemaire might have been the first coach to figure out how to make it work (neutral zone trap),  but every bad or mediocre team was quick to clue in (Terry Crisp in SJ) and do exactly the same thing.    SJ stopped Detroit in their tracks, after some incredible seasons with a nothing roster (Makorov/Irbe).   I'm also aware of how Lou had every single NHL player on a card in his office in a board.   He's brilliant.  Don't need history lessons, especially recent ones.    It for sure wasn't just Lou and Trotz.   For sure it influenced things.   Funny considering wasn't Lou also the mastermind behind the Shanny plan,  and Tavares, well he played under that "system" too.    You can't expect a kid in his second year, to take all the responsibilities of a first line center role, lose one of the most consistent centers in the league, and somehow maintain the same level of offense.   Even taking Tavares off the PP would have made an impact.   Without even looking, wonder what that did for his PP production versus even strength (for sure EV would take a hit having to face better competition).     I'm a huge Lou and Trotz fan, and have been for a long time.    Trotz, believed he was the best coach in the league or one of them, before his cup.    And for sure he took NYI and almost did something extremely special, game 7 against wasn't it TB?   Not an easy thing.   I'm sure Barzal is a better all around player for it.    But you can't discount losing Tavares just because of Trotz, and especially with Lou.   He's not coaching. 

[IBatch]

58 minutes ago, coryberg said:

That would be a given seeing as barzal would have taken the brunt of the opposition's focus. Not hard to understand at all.

 

As for Tavares' first season after leaving the isles? He had his best season ever, scored 10 more goals than the season before (12 more at even strength) with less ice time. The fact that he has maintained his point totals despite his advanced age would definitely indicate a more beneficial system. Also interesting that he has received selke votes in 6 seasons over his career, 5 of those were with the islanders where he had to be more defensively responsible.

 

 

Yes it is a given.   Just not seen that way despite pointing out the obvious.   Let's see how Barzal does now with Horvat.      It's also not a big surprise he had his best season playing with better linemates either - despite his "advanced age".   Lol.   On that.  Yes he did start early, but at the time, he was also considered the biggest UFA to hit the market at that age (Stamkos too - go figure), because his term wasn't that long, and he started right away.   

 

27-32 ... those are considered fantastic years for blue chip players.   As they should be.   That's when Naslund had his best five years.   It's also when the Sedins had their best seasons.    Tavares never had many great players on his teams to play with while in NYI.   But still managed to be a PGP guy despite this.    Remarkably consistent.   Sure overpaid, but he wasn't always.   Actually his RFA days now would he considered a steal.    Also how the system is supposed to work.   Twice a Hart finalist ... because that's how mediocre those NYI teams were.     Even if he didn't play another game, likely headed for the HHOF.

Edited July 25, 2023 by IBatch

[Citizen Erased]

50 minutes ago, canuck73_3 said:

Alfs Seider takes are beyond awful 

Almost like he stopped drinking whiskey and started drinking cider.

[grandmaster]

You know it’s slow when all these older trades keep being brought up 

[mll]

1 hour ago, IBatch said:

Im well aware of Lou's teams.   And how it affected and changed the game in the 90's.   Made it much easier with what was allowed back then.   Lemaire might have been the first coach to figure out how to make it work (neutral zone trap),  but every bad or mediocre team was quick to clue in (Terry Crisp in SJ) and do exactly the same thing.    SJ stopped Detroit in their tracks, after some incredible seasons with a nothing roster (Makorov/Irbe).   I'm also aware of how Lou had every single NHL player on a card in his office in a board.   He's brilliant.  Don't need history lessons, especially recent ones.    It for sure wasn't just Lou and Trotz.   For sure it influenced things.   Funny considering wasn't Lou also the mastermind behind the Shanny plan,  and Tavares, well he played under that "system" too.    You can't expect a kid in his second year, to take all the responsibilities of a first line center role, lose one of the most consistent centers in the league, and somehow maintain the same level of offense.   Even taking Tavares off the PP would have made an impact.   Without even looking, wonder what that did for his PP production versus even strength (for sure EV would take a hit having to face better competition).     I'm a huge Lou and Trotz fan, and have been for a long time.    Trotz, believed he was the best coach in the league or one of them, before his cup.    And for sure he took NYI and almost did something extremely special, game 7 against wasn't it TB?   Not an easy thing.   I'm sure Barzal is a better all around player for it.    But you can't discount losing Tavares just because of Trotz, and especially with Lou.   He's not coaching. 

Barzal didn't really replace Tavares though - he wasn't really lined up against other team's top lines.  It's Nelson that took over the toughest matchups.  Barzal was still sheltered that 1st season under Trotz and even saw a consequent drop in face-offs.  HockeyViz and PuckIQ even suggest that he's been more sheltered than the previous season with Tavares.  Losing Tavares for sure affected the PP but still feels like it was more the change of system than the loss of Tavares for Barzal's drop in production given his deployment.

 

Lamoriello was hired as a transition GM in Toronto.  He didn't even get to choose his staff.  He didn't set the direction either.  It's not even him that hired Babcock - was already in place when Lamoriello was added 2 months later.  Ownership in NYI say they would be fools to try and play GM and leave it all to Lamoriello.  He was hired as President of hockey ops and it's him that decided to name himself as GM in replacement of Snow who he fired.

 

Lamoriello doesn't coach now either but he's still the one that says they won't sacrifice defence for offence when introducing Lambert as new coach.  He also hired Trotz - wasn't imposed the coach like in Toronto.   Can't really compare NYI to Toronto because he has full control in NYI while Toronto so many constraints with Shanahan president of hockey ops.  

 

Lamoriello brought in bottom-6 players in the off-season - he didn't add scoring to replace the loss of Tavares.  Only 191 goals against while the median was 244 - from worst in the league to best.  It became all about defence.  

 

Edited July 25, 2023 by mll

[-Vintage Canuck-]

Random CDC Fact #1: This was the longest trade thread in CDC history.

[Ballisticsports.]

Give us time to start a new one?

[Maninthebox]

still a poo trade return

[Ballisticsports.]

13 minutes ago, Maninthebox said:

still a poo trade return

Really ?

Younger, useful, affordable tradeable assets for one that was signed too high and too long and only tradeable to NYI

Jeez, even the guy who signed him said he paid too much after doing it says something

[jyu]

I still like the trade itself. Getting an NHL player, 1st rounder (17th overall), and a prospect over re-signing Bo at 8.5 mil.

 

If Bo could have been re-signed in the summer for around 6.5 to 7 mil, I might have liked that outcome as well.

 

Getting Hronek using the first rounder and our own 2nd, that's the trade that we need to re-visit 5 years later.

 

If Raty doesn't pan out and Beauvillier doesn't find a role on this team, then it's basically Horvat (+ 2nd rounder) for Hronek. As long as Hronek plays a significant role as a top 4RD for us for the next 5 years, I'd say the trade was worth it.

 

But in 5 years, there won't be this thread.

[Ballisticsports.]

Yeah It is not like we traded Bo who had years on a good contract (we got that deal for 1.5 months left of him)

We were not a team dealing from strength and very lucky to get that deal

We needed a change, I was tired of watching our Captain skate by watching his teammates be pummeled and do nothing 

No way Canucks would have given him that contract (or could, even if they wanted too, and to keep the same losing makeup and leadership of the team)

He led himself to a great raise, while not leading the team

Happy this worked out as it did, we got younger and a dman we needed (I feel we fluked out being patient and getting this deal)

[jyu]

Yes, the change of direction was much needed.

 

Bo was a good player but nowhere near an elite franchise player that can alter the trajectory of the franchise. 

 

Hughes and Pettersson are franchise players and with Quinn being named the captain, I think we are going in the right direction.

 

But they definitely need help. The current prospect pool, while decent, is lacking a game breaking talent.