Horvat was taken for granted here

[GhostsOf1994]

14 minutes ago, Darius said:

Lot of speculation here.  If he was a better prospect with higher draft ranking why did he go in the second round, with some teams passing on him twice?

 

Not saying that the kid wont pan out to be a player, but id like to see some of the rationale behind your statement?

I'm lazy, so here 

 

this is from fourthperiod

 

 The New York Islanders don’t have a whole lot of highly touted prospects, but Aatu Räty is shaping up to be their best. The Isles top prospect was traded in the Finnish Elite League (Liiga), Finland’s top professional hockey league, from Oulun Kärpät to Mikkelin Jukurit and it has Islander fans beaming. The excitement isn’t unwarranted either as Räty has taken off with his new club after escaping an inconsistent environment he seemingly didn’t fit in with Kärpät. 

 

If you don’t know Räty’s story by now, he was a high-profile prospect making his mark as a revelation from the age of 15 and on in Kärpät’s junior system. Things took a turn for the worse once he started skating with Kärpät’s varsity squad at Finland’s top professional level. 

 

 

“Last spring, it wasn’t easy for him,” Räty’s agent, Mika Backman, told The Athletic. “He was the youngest player in the whole world juniors and then after the tournament Kärpät put him to play with the juniors and he tried to work harder and harder, and I think he even practiced too hard. I think he pushed too hard. The joy, he lost it.”

 

After finally being drafted at 52nd overall by the Islanders in the latest Draft, Räty began the revenge tour immediately by scoring four goals in Finland’s first game at the 2021 World Junior Summer Showcase just hours after he was selected. Räty finished the tournament with the most points scoring six goals, 14 points in six games, which surely had the 31 clubs who passed on Räty scratching their heads. 

[Darius]

4 minutes ago, Dixon Ward said:

I am a big fan of Horvat, but prior to his contract year he averaged .75 pts per game over 4 years.  This year he is over a pt per game.  I feel like he is giving his all for a bigger contract.  Which, in turn, means he didn't give his all prior to that.

 

Other than the last 50 games he is worth 6.5-7 mil.  This contract will take him well past his prime. The Isles overpaid.  Miller has averaged over a pt per game for 4 years and even in an off year is still well above Bo's typical average.  Miller signed for 500k less than Bo.  

 

Other than the relatively poor communications work by the front office, this was good business based on the information at hand.  

Do you think its possible that his bump in production this year is part of a natural progression instead of a lack of effort in previous years?  Look at the Sedins for example.  They became point per game players in their mid to late 20s - were they not trying before that?  Granted hes probably not a long term 40 goal 80 point player , but im thinking 35 goals -75 points isnt out of reach in light of how he has generally improved over time.

 

Also, does anyone know what Bo was offered by the Canucks?  Some proof of what he was actually offered on paper?  I agree the Isles overpaid, thats what happens when you give up your top prospect and a first rounder for a player on an expiring contract- Horvat's agent had all the leverage in the world to take Lou to the cleaners.  I find it hard to believe that Horvat was asking 8.5 to stay in vancouver.

 

 

[Darius]

2 minutes ago, GhostsOf1994 said:

I'm lazy, so here 

 

this is from fourthperiod

 

 The New York Islanders don’t have a whole lot of highly touted prospects, but Aatu Räty is shaping up to be their best. The Isles top prospect was traded in the Finnish Elite League (Liiga), Finland’s top professional hockey league, from Oulun Kärpät to Mikkelin Jukurit and it has Islander fans beaming. The excitement isn’t unwarranted either as Räty has taken off with his new club after escaping an inconsistent environment he seemingly didn’t fit in with Kärpät. 

 

If you don’t know Räty’s story by now, he was a high-profile prospect making his mark as a revelation from the age of 15 and on in Kärpät’s junior system. Things took a turn for the worse once he started skating with Kärpät’s varsity squad at Finland’s top professional level. 

 

 

“Last spring, it wasn’t easy for him,” Räty’s agent, Mika Backman, told The Athletic. “He was the youngest player in the whole world juniors and then after the tournament Kärpät put him to play with the juniors and he tried to work harder and harder, and I think he even practiced too hard. I think he pushed too hard. The joy, he lost it.”

 

After finally being drafted at 52nd overall by the Islanders in the latest Draft, Räty began the revenge tour immediately by scoring four goals in Finland’s first game at the 2021 World Junior Summer Showcase just hours after he was selected. Räty finished the tournament with the most points scoring six goals, 14 points in six games, which surely had the 31 clubs who passed on Räty scratching their heads. 

You claimed Raty was a better prospect than Horvat. Apologies if I misunderstood but I dont think thats true.  One guy was taken in the top half of the first round, the other was taken near the middle half of the second round in his draft.  There is a reason for that.

[Darius]

8 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

I wasn't blaming BO directly.  I was asking the question if they are changing the way they play now because they added a 50 goal scorer.  It may have been an off game, and like it was already mentioned we need to judge them off 10-15 games.

fair enough

[Dr. Crossbar]

2 hours ago, Rush17 said:

No. No he wasn't.

 

He was over valued because he was the first prospect of this rebuild. I always resented the fact he was the defacto future captain. 

 

Bo is also now overpaid. So the Islanders can enjoy that lol

I really like Bo. It's too bad it went this way but things need to change, for us and him. I wish him all the best. Looking back, no one could see it but Bo's window as a Canuck was really tied to Benning's kick at the can and the emphasis on character.

 

That said, I know how you feel. Bo was anointed Captain by fans and the media way, WAY too early.  It was obvious and awkward when Boeser, Petey, Miller and the new era arrived. It wasn't fair to Bo or the team.

[Elias Pettersson]

8 minutes ago, Darius said:

Do you think its possible that his bump in production this year is part of a natural progression instead of a lack of effort in previous years?  Look at the Sedins for example.  They became point per game players in their mid to late 20s - were they not trying before that?  Granted hes probably not a long term 40 goal 80 point player , but im thinking 35 goals -75 points isnt out of reach in light of how he has generally improved over time.

 

Also, does anyone know what Bo was offered by the Canucks?  Some proof of what he was actually offered on paper?  I agree the Isles overpaid, thats what happens when you give up your top prospect and a first rounder for a player on an expiring contract- Horvat's agent had all the leverage in the world to take Lou to the cleaners.  I find it hard to believe that Horvat was asking 8.5 to stay in vancouver.

 

 

Seravalli said they offered him just over $56 million in total monies.  The last offer reported was 7.5x7, which is $52.5 million.  So maybe something close to those numbers.

[Darius]

3 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Seravalli said they offered him just over $56 million in total monies.  The last offer reported was 7.5x7, which is $52.5 million.  So maybe something close to those numbers.

if 7.5 X7 is true, im thinking thats a fair offer.

[JeremyCuddles]

Given how much heat he got as a leader here, it's hard to disagree that he was underappreciated. People actually thought he was the problem. I will say this though. When you go the better part of the decade sucking and not seeing any improvement. It's hard not to point the finger at the captain. It's kind of why they are captain. To take the heat, to answer the tough questions. It's why so many of them are polarizing. Nazzy and the Sedins are looked at as bad leaders. Horvat, looked at as a bad leader. I also think the fanbase overrates our captain's need to fight every time something bad happens. But it is what it is, Bo won't be looked back on super fondly cause we were a lottery team more often than not in his time here. Whether or not he deserves a lot of the blame is for others to debate. I think we wasted Bo's greatness.

 

But with all this said, he clearly wanted the bag and he got it. As a Horvat defender, I do not believe him making 8+mil is a good idea long term. We'll see how much success that team sees with him making 8.5mil and Barzal making 9+mil. Both great players but those are massive price tags.

 

 

[GhostsOf1994]

38 minutes ago, wai_lai416 said:

based on what? horvat already have 65 points in the nhl at 20, and is a consistent 50+ point guy since with goals/game increasing almost every single season.. potential doesn't mean jack sh!t.. Raty have the potential to be as good as Bo if not better.. POTENTIAL.. the way you are saying is like Raty will guarantee be better than bo.. funny how many prospect have higher potential than Bo and all turned into nothing? lots..

 

and keep dreaming if you think anyone will give u a late 1st rounder for a 30point guy.. 

Sorry but. 

 

Bo Horvat, to your surprise.... has never scored 65 points in the NHL.

 

correct, 50 points doesnt equal 8.5 per year, does 60? 65?

 

lol...15-20g regular season Beauvillier retained at %50 for a playoff teams 1st rounder...no, you're right, I'm out of my mind.

 

Do you know who Barclay Goodrow & Blake Coleman are? here's something I magically dreamed up out of dreamland.

 

Blake Coleman was traded for Nolan Foote (1st 27oa) and an additional 1st round pick. 

 

Guess what? Coleman is a career 30-35pt guy, surprised?

 

Barclay Goodrow was traded with a 3rd round pick for a 1st rounder & warm body.

 

Guess what his points total over the last 4 seasons ( in my dreams of course) 26, 20, 33 & 23.

 

[Elias Pettersson]

7 minutes ago, Darius said:

if 7.5 X7 is true, im thinking thats a fair offer.

Yup, I agree.  He took the bigger payday, bigger than I thought he would have gotten, to play on a borderline playoff team.  Good for him.  Hope he is happy...

[GhostsOf1994]

18 minutes ago, Darius said:

You claimed Raty was a better prospect than Horvat. Apologies if I misunderstood but I dont think thats true.  One guy was taken in the top half of the first round, the other was taken near the middle half of the second round in his draft.  There is a reason for that.

and it is explained why he struggled and why he no longer struggled but excelled. its literally in writing from writers? like his agent even explained it.. 

[RomanP]

4 hours ago, Dazzle said:

This right here is what's wrong with our fanbase.

 

It's always somebody else's fault with this fanbase, except ourselves. We can drill on the past over and over, but fail to address or acknowledge the present.

 

Horvat earned the right to market value. 7.25 and 8.50 is not that much of a difference. We just lowballed our former captain.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Our own fault? Please enlighten me, when do the fans put on jerseys and skates and try to win the games?

[DeNiro]

12 minutes ago, Darius said:

if 7.5 X7 is true, im thinking thats a fair offer.

It could have been 7x8 though.

 

I think him and his agent believed he could get 9 mil in free agency though. Maybe through tampering or media “speculation” we’ll never know. But that’s 63 million, so not really close to our offer.

[Darius]

2 minutes ago, N7Nucks said:

Given how much heat he got as a leader here, it's hard to disagree that he was underappreciated. People actually thought he was the problem. I will say this though. When you go the better part of the decade sucking and not seeing any improvement. It's hard not to point the finger at the captain. It's kind of why they are captain. To take the heat, to answer the tough questions. It's why so many of them are polarizing. Nazzy and the Sedins are looked at as bad leaders. Horvat, looked at as a bad leader. I also think the fanbase overrates our captain's need to fight every time something bad happens. But it is what it is, Bo won't be looked back on super fondly cause we were a lottery team more often than not in his time here. Whether or not he deserves a lot of the blame is for others to debate. I think we wasted Bo's greatness.

 

But with all this said, he clearly wanted the bag and he got it. As a Horvat defender, I do not believe him making 8+mil is a good idea long term. We'll see how much success that team sees with him making 8.5mil and Barzal making 9+mil. Both great players but those are massive price tags.

 

 

you make great points.

 

thoughts that come to mind of Canuck captains since i have been following the team:

 

Smyl - hard nosed guy stuck on bad teams in the 80s, but gave it all.  much respect.

 

Linden - probably my favorite captain. I loved the whole era from 1989-1994, the ups and downs, the build up to that cup finals team.  Linden really stepped it up in the post season. A great leader.  Even with everything he had done some fans didnt think he was a great leader because he didnt fight and push back enough.  Trading him got us players that affected the trajectory of the franchise for 2 decades - in a positive way.  Lets hope the Bo trade comes near what the Linden trade did.

 

Naslund - Great talent, those WCE teams couldnt get it done.  For some reason the "we choked" line always comes to mind.

 

Hank - ultra talented.  Under rated tough, not many could take the physical punishment in the corners and keep producing like he did.  Unfortunately (imho) the way that  2011 team lost and the 'speed bag' imagery made the fan base here overly sensitive about being passive and not tough enough.  This would put the toughness of the next captain under the microscope.

 

Bo -in my mind he will be a symbol of the failed Benning era.  A good talent wasted because of bad team building decisions. I think if we had a legit D core and a couple more shutdown/checking forwards/specialists Bo could have taken this team far into the playoffs.

 

[Darius]

15 minutes ago, GhostsOf1994 said:

and it is explained why he struggled and why he no longer struggled but excelled. its literally in writing from writers? like his agent even explained it.. 

but how is he a better prospect than Bo was.  BO was a legit top 10 pick for a reason.  Raty was not a top 10 pick.  Raty didnt even land in the first round.  Sure there are explanations.  Ive seen lots of explanations for other prospects too...mono...homesick...plays with guys not as smart as him....at the end of the day draft position is indicative of what organizations think of the player.  Saying Raty is a better prospect than Horvat was is a reach to say the least.

[Ballisticsports.]

1 hour ago, Elias Pettersson said:

We literally just beat the Islanders with BO on the other team.  How exactly would he have helped us in the retool?  It looks like we are retooling just fine without him.  Meanwhile, his current team can't even beat us with an AHL goalie in our net...

The Islanders smoked us when we had Bo  in January and now they lose with Bo on their team

We need to turn the page on trying to keep the same pathetic Canuck team of the last 8 years

Doing the same thing over and over and getting the same results with the same players wasn't healthy or fun for anyone

[GhostsOf1994]

Just now, Darius said:

but how is he a better prospect than Bo was.  BO was a legit top 10 pick for a reason.  Raty was not a top 10 pick.  Raty didnt even land in the first round.  Sure there are explanations.  Ive seen lots of explanations for other prospects too...mono...homesick...plays with guys not as smart as him....at the end of the day draft position is indicative of what organizations think of the player.  Saying Raty is a better prospect than Horvat was is a reach to say the least.

Horvat was ranked 15th by the NHL’s Central Scouting (North American skaters), 10th by International Scouting Services and 14th by McKeen’s Hockey.

[Darius]

13 minutes ago, DeNiro said:

It could have been 7x8 though.

 

I think him and his agent believed he could get 9 mil in free agency though. Maybe through tampering or media “speculation” we’ll never know. But that’s 63 million, so not really close to our offer.

im not sure Deniro. If him and his agent thought they could get 9 they would have not signed Lou's deal.  Im thinking they were probably looking at 8x8 from vancouver or something close and Canucks wouldnt go above 7.5 ...just a guess.

 

But like you have said previously..whats done is done now...time to look forward.

[Phil_314]

4 hours ago, D.B Cooper said:

Get over it.  
He didn’t do anything spectacular. 
He came to work and did his job. 
He was far from inspiring. 

He isnt worth close to that contract and you will see that as soon as next year.  

A workmanlike, "not inspiring" but consistent captain who is still firmly in his prime, took crucial draws and chipped in offense?  I'd say that's a pretty good roster building block, compared with all the underachievers in our roster.  If we didn't make the blunders of acquiring Myers/ OEL and extending Miller (and having Boeser/ Garland's offense fall off a cliff) I would definitely have hoped that we could've re-signed him (yes, likely even ahead of Kuzmenko, who I would've been down to trade for futures, since we already have wingers to rehab value for and give major minutes).  
 

[Darius]

3 minutes ago, GhostsOf1994 said:

Horvat was ranked 15th by the NHL’s Central Scouting (North American skaters), 10th by International Scouting Services and 14th by McKeen’s Hockey.

and??