[WCF] Vegas Golden Knights (P1) vs. Dallas Stars (C2) | Golden Knights win series 4-2

[Boudrias]

14 hours ago, chon derry said:

Wasn’t a bitch/ grip it was a response to dr jocks post of millers shape in the early season and some of his Tatics the Delia incident was a one off , but the blind pass thing he can drop that one any time or at least practice it like a set play but it’s lack of success tells me it’s not a set play so much as him doing it on his own. Further to my point at no point of my post was there any denial of millers “ fire” which I’m in agreement of , it’s the questionable unsuccessful plays he try’s to quaterback. If you’ve ever watched miller mic’d up during practice there leaves little doubt he wants to be the leader. And it’s obvious he wants to assign plays. He did this under Green ,I highly doubt he’d get away with it under tochett. Not all team mates buy into that kind of “ I’m the boss “ leadership.I also believe  that he acts the way he does because he sees a void in leadership which touch’s on your view of things  the problem with self appointing a leadership role is it avoids and by passes the earning respect aspect of the situation whereas the typical route is leading  by example and earning it.  one doesn’t posses  it it simply because that’s what you desire  it’s an earned commodity.  one things for sure if any of the recent slew of coach’s gets thru with proper leadership instruction you can be sure it’ll be tochett, because the other two coach’s never personally had it so there’s no way they were in a position to teach it  

 

If the return is good I am still into moving Miller. At 30 he simply does not meet the timeline of the core. Moving him and Meyers or other s would prpvide the CAP space the team needs. 

[chon derry]

7 minutes ago, Boudrias said:

If the return is good I am still into moving Miller. At 30 he simply does not meet the timeline of the core. Moving him and Meyers or other s would prpvide the CAP space the team needs. 

There got a month and a half to find a trade partner , before his new contract kicks in , and with the amount and term it’s likely the players coming back would be equivalent in salary it’s the term and his age that’ll turn suitors off. 

Edited May 19, 2023 by chon derry

[Alflives]

13 minutes ago, Boudrias said:

If the return is good I am still into moving Miller. At 30 he simply does not meet the timeline of the core. Moving him and Meyers or other s would prpvide the CAP space the team needs. 

Do Pavelski, Benn, and other older guys around the league got the timelines of their teams? 
Miller is a high end player who is big, mean, skilled, and proven to be a ppg guy. The rest of our core is young and coming right now into their primes. We just added Hronek, another high end player, who is also entering his best years. 
IMHAO keeping Miller (after dumping the elephant) is the right move for the current timeframe of our core. 

[chon derry]

2 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Do Pavelski, Benn, and other older guys around the league got the timelines of their teams? 
Miller is a high end player who is big, mean, skilled, and proven to be a ppg guy. The rest of our core is young and coming right now into their primes. We just added Hronek, another high end player, who is also entering his best years. 
IMHAO keeping Miller (after dumping the elephant) is the right move for the current timeframe of our core. 

There’s a real potential of him becoming an albatross contract holder like OEL in a few years. One that they’d be stuck with. Nobody knows how he’s going to be playing then ?  Going by any of your recent predictions should I assume the opposite ? 

[Gurn]

16 minutes ago, Alflives said:

, Benn,

Since signing his $9,500,000  8 yr deal Benn has scored

79 points             82 games

53                        78 games

39                        69 games

35                        52

46                        82

78                        82 games.

 

perhaps long term deals are not good deals?

 

[Ghostsof1915]

The real issue is Loui E has traumatized CDC so much that any hockey player pushing 28-30, CDC just wants to get rid of him. They automatically think 30 something players are expendable. It's not about windows. It's about building a team. Teams need different players to bring different skills to the club. We've seen in other teams you can be 30 and over and still be a valuable piece. The paranoia is Miller hits 30 and starts to produce only 30 points and starts declining even further. Loui was probably a mistake from the get go. He was coming off of a good year, and the Canucks didn't have any vets. They wanted to give the Twins a winger that would complement them before they retired.

 

Repeat after me. Not all late 20s-early 30's players are Loui E. If you're worried about players getting $8 million a year? What's the option? Turn into Arizona and have a revolving door of players that you let go because they get too expensive?

[Gurn]

7 minutes ago, Ghostsof1915 said:

What's the option?

Signing players to shorter deals, is an option.

 

8 minutes ago, Ghostsof1915 said:

Repeat after me. Not all late 20s-early 30's players are Loui E.

And not all players are Joe Pavelski.

 

Age related decline is a thing, it happens.

signing people to long deals at around the age the decline starts is not a good deal.

[bishopshodan]

56 minutes ago, Boudrias said:

If the return is good I am still into moving Miller. At 30 he simply does not meet the timeline of the core. Moving him and Meyers or other s would prpvide the CAP space the team needs. 

At 30... he is the perfect age and type of all round, point producing, gritty player for a vet leadership needed when we raise the grail in 3 years. 

 

Perfect.

[Boudrias]

35 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Do Pavelski, Benn, and other older guys around the league got the timelines of their teams? 
Miller is a high end player who is big, mean, skilled, and proven to be a ppg guy. The rest of our core is young and coming right now into their primes. We just added Hronek, another high end player, who is also entering his best years. 
IMHAO keeping Miller (after dumping the elephant) is the right move for the current timeframe of our core. 

You could very well be right Alf. Miller likely helps this roster make playoffs next year. My concern is whether that is enough considering the possible downside. Is the issue the quality of player Miller will be in 3-4 years or the increased depth of what a trade would bring back to the Canucks? As fans we like to look at the org depth with rose coloured glasses IMHO. You point out the Stars as an example of older players who are performing well. Fair enough. My concern is that the Canucks do not have the same level of performance from their prospects. Moving Miller would broaden that depth and could make the overall team stronger.

 

Every summer Canuck fans speculate on how good all the team players and prospects are or will be. IMO a major + takeaway was the progress in Abby and the Canuck org being prepared to actually develop players in Abby. I am encouraged by the new coaches headed by Tocchet it suggests that Allvin has a better approach. Like most of us I am hoping Allvin can swing some trades before the draft that moves out some CAP and allows him to add to our d-core. If he is able to accomplish that then maybe keeping Miller will be a option. Bottom line is that Miller could easily be one of those moved.    

[chon derry]

11 minutes ago, Gurn said:

Signing players to shorter deals, is an option.

 

And not all players are Joe Pavelski.

 

Age related decline is a thing, it happens.

signing people to long deals at around the age the decline starts is not a good deal.

I made the comparison of millers contract to OELs decline. Nobody can predict the future about miller. Like wise nobody knows what’s hampered OELs play. Is it his age? Has he been playing injured ? Both?  So when these factors come into play one can’t discount any of said factors NOT happening to miller ,heck his style is more aggresive than OELs wouldn’t that make his play be negatively affected as OELs ? Mind you that’s as bold a prediction as saying he’ll be a valuable point producing player through the entirety of his contract. No one knows. That’s the scary part. 

[Gurn]

4 minutes ago, chon derry said:

I made the comparison of millers contract to OELs decline. Nobody can predict the future about miller. Like wise nobody knows what’s hampered OELs play. Is it his age? Has he been playing injured ? Both?  So when these factors come into play one can’t discount any of said factors NOT happening to miller ,heck his style is more aggresive than OELs wouldn’t that make his play be negatively affected as OELs ? Mind you that’s as bold a prediction as saying he’ll be a valuable point producing player through the entirety of his contract. No one knows. That’s the scary part. 

Miller's deal, to me is:

a bit too much 

to a bit too old player

for way too long.

 

If we were an actual contending team, or even a 'pretender' team; I'd  be inclined to ok with the deal. However the Canucks aren't even an assured wild card team yet.

 

When cooking, ingredients are important, but so is when you put the ingredients into the pot.

 

[Ghostsof1915]

2 minutes ago, Gurn said:

Miller's deal, to me is:

a bit too much 

to a bit too old player

for way too long.

 

If we were an actual contending team, or even a 'pretender' team; I'd  be inclined to ok with the deal. However the Canucks aren't even an assured wild card team yet.

 

When cooking, ingredients are important, but so is when you put the ingredients into the pot.

 

We talking Miller or Horvat?  Or both?   I'd prefer shorter contracts myself. But with players and agents these days that's the trick.

[Ghostsof1915]

36 minutes ago, Gurn said:

Signing players to shorter deals, is an option.

 

And not all players are Joe Pavelski.

 

Age related decline is a thing, it happens.

signing people to long deals at around the age the decline starts is not a good deal.

Yes, it's a thing. The question is what is the rate of decline? Is it gradual and something the team can live with and still get a useful player (Think Sedin's the last few years) ? Or is it the off the cliff type that Loui had?

[Alflives]

16 minutes ago, Boudrias said:

You could very well be right Alf. Miller likely helps this roster make playoffs next year. My concern is whether that is enough considering the possible downside. Is the issue the quality of player Miller will be in 3-4 years or the increased depth of what a trade would bring back to the Canucks? As fans we like to look at the org depth with rose coloured glasses IMHO. You point out the Stars as an example of older players who are performing well. Fair enough. My concern is that the Canucks do not have the same level of performance from their prospects. Moving Miller would broaden that depth and could make the overall team stronger.

 

Every summer Canuck fans speculate on how good all the team players and prospects are or will be. IMO a major + takeaway was the progress in Abby and the Canuck org being prepared to actually develop players in Abby. I am encouraged by the new coaches headed by Tocchet it suggests that Allvin has a better approach. Like most of us I am hoping Allvin can swing some trades before the draft that moves out some CAP and allows him to add to our d-core. If he is able to accomplish that then maybe keeping Miller will be a option. Bottom line is that Miller could easily be one of those moved.    

Miller is a great player on a team friendly deal. certainly he has a lot of trade value. But we just added another key player in Hronek. Our core is mostly younger and very good. They are entering their prime years. I see us being a top 10 team in the league next season. 105 points. And with Demko, and our core being so good we will we see playoff success too. 

We no longer have Benning. We have competent management in now (again). The new management reminds me a lot of Gillis. Not the nicest people (like Benning seemed to be) but very good at what they do (which Benning wasn't). 

Say hello to winning! 

[Alflives]

4 minutes ago, Ghostsof1915 said:

We talking Miller or Horvat?  Or both?   I'd prefer shorter contracts myself. But with players and agents these days that's the trick.

I wonder how Dubas is feeling about having Matthews contract coming up after only a five year term? And how did Benning do with only a 3 year term for Petey?  And Benning only signed Hughes to six. Miller getting 7 years x 8 per is a team friendly deal for us. 

[chon derry]

5 minutes ago, Gurn said:

Miller's deal, to me is:

a bit too much 

to a bit too old player

for way too long.

 

If we were an actual contending team, or even a 'pretender' team; I'd  be inclined to ok with the deal. However the Canucks aren't even an assured wild card team yet.

 

When cooking, ingredients are important, but so is when you put the ingredients into the pot.

 

Watching last nites game there is a lot of veteran presence in the series comparative the Canucks are retooling a younger team.  Acquiring players averaging 25 or slightly younger Allvin says. During the next couple of seasons the team does need some veteran presence , it’s the final 4 years of millers contract that’ll be the boat anchor. But and it’s a big but , if there going to achieve success in these next 4 years maybe we shouldn’t worry about those last 4 years?  That would mean a cup win within the next 4 years and then who cares about millers contract. I think that’s a pretty big ask. One can hope thou. 

[Gurn]

5 minutes ago, chon derry said:

Watching last nites game there is a lot of veteran presence in the series comparative the Canucks are retooling a younger team.  Acquiring players averaging 25 or slightly younger Allvin says. During the next couple of seasons the team does need some veteran presence , it’s the final 4 years of millers contract that’ll be the boat anchor. But and it’s a big but , if there going to achieve success in these next 4 years maybe we shouldn’t worry about those last 4 years?  That would mean a cup win within the next 4 years and then who cares about millers contract. I think that’s a pretty big ask. One can hope thou. 

I just see them doing stupid stuff to try and make the play offs.

I see a few suggesting trading the 11th over all for cap space- which we do need.  Folks will say it takes years to most drafted players into the NHL.

So I can foresee a future where Miller has 3 yrs left on his deal, and is producing at a .5 per game clip- but we have no young guy to pick him up, by playing better than the young guy's ELC.

 

Sure- maybe they actually win a cup in the next few years.

Only need to

add a competent back up goalie

have Myers and OEL return to top 4 level d performance- or replace them.

have adequate 5/6/7 th d men

added size up front- and on d

added snarl up front, and on d

added quality penalty killers - so E.P. and Hughes can get more 5 on 5 time.

develop the 2nd unit power play

find  a good quality 3rd center

decided on a adequate 4rth line center

add over all team speed

 

and develop the farm/depth so that they can survive a few injuries.

 

I'm hoping for the best, but not expecting it.

[Timråfan]

9 minutes ago, Gurn said:

I just see them doing stupid stuff to try and make the play offs.

I see a few suggesting trading the 11th over all for cap space- which we do need.  Folks will say it takes years to most drafted players into the NHL.

So I can foresee a future where Miller has 3 yrs left on his deal, and is producing at a .5 per game clip- but we have no young guy to pick him up, by playing better than the young guy's ELC.

 

Sure- maybe they actually win a cup in the next few years.

Only need to

add a competent back up goalie

have Myers and OEL return to top 4 level d performance- or replace them.

have adequate 5/6/7 th d men

added size up front- and on d

added snarl up front, and on d

added quality penalty killers - so E.P. and Hughes can get more 5 on 5 time.

develop the 2nd unit power play

find  a good quality 3rd center

decided on a adequate 4rth line center

add over all team speed

 

and develop the farm/depth so that they can survive a few injuries.

 

I'm hoping for the best, but not expecting it.

add a competent back up goalie: check, Silovs

have Myers and OEL return to top 4 level d performance- or replace them. : Check in season 24/25

have adequate 5/6/7 th d men:  check, in abundence

added size up front- and on d : Here it still needs

added snarl up front, and on d : still need maybe

added quality penalty killers - so E.P. and Hughes can get more 5 on 5 time:  Nahh

develop the 2nd unit power play: check, Hronek and OEL back in business is the key

find  a good quality 3rd center: Räty is the key her

decided on a adequate 4rth line center: check

add over all team speed, check

 

not so much to get, with a bit of luck only size and snarl can be an issue if not Tocchet got a solution for that.

[Gurn]

After having a coffee, I realize:

this is not the appropriate thread to re hash the team.

We now return you to your regular scheduled play off thread.

[chon derry]

3 minutes ago, Gurn said:

After having a coffee, I realize:

this is not the appropriate thread to re hash the team.

We now return you to your regular scheduled play off thread.