Jim Bennings legacy without the OEL trade. Grade him out of 10.

[AnthonyG]

9 hours ago, DSVII said:

 

You've lost the plot my friend. Take care.

 

Do try and answer those questions when you have a chance. I'm genuinely curious.

I’ve lost the plot? Buddy you guys compare a GM who was handed a cup contending roster to a GM who had to deal with the aftermath of selling the entire future and failed to provide prospects and any real hope for a future outside of Horvat. 
Alf could have done the same job as Gillis. It didnt take rocket science to toss away picks and prospects to add to

Daniel

Henrik

Edler

Salo

Burrows

Kesler

Hansen

Luongo

Schneider

Raymond

 

 comparing a GM who had to rebuild from absolutely nothing to a GM who had the green light to go all in is absolutely ludicrous. Give your head a shake man

 

Gillis impact on the future was devastating. Benning at least put a bright light at the end of the tunnel, but you lack the patience to wait and see it through. Its just like when the twins struggled immensely from their draft year til they were 24 turning 25. Without the WCE, they would have been ruined and possibly moved out or gone back home. Bennings picks had to step in and produce right away because the guys who could have stayed another couple years, chose to retire early leaving no choice but to throw the kids in and let them play.

Their is plenty of talent under 25 that still have yet to make their mark. Have some bloody patience.

 

[canucklehead44]

9 hours ago, Timråfan said:

Ok, you still don’t analyse the drafting right.

It’s a lottery after the first picks. 
Everyone knows that but you don’t even mention it.

 

Benning can be compared to other GMs with loyts of higher picks.

The rest of the GMs can join the club where luck is the main factor.

The GM actually has very little to do with drafting, outside of the top 10. Benning (although might be the fault of Aqua) went against the scounts pick of Larkin and picked Virtanen. 

He hated the McCann pick, to the point of throwing his scouts under the bus, and tosses McCann away for nothing and he becomes a 40 goal scorer. 

 

And who did he bring in that was so brilliant? Brackett was hired by Gillis, and the rest of the guys (Delorme, Gradin) have been around for a long time. 

 

2015 Boeser was a good pick, but BPA was Konecny and mock drafts had us taking Carlo. I'd trade Boeser for either of those guys in a hearbeat. 

In 2016 we take Juolevi over Tkachuk. Very stupid at the time, aged even worse. 

2017 Benning wants Cody Glass. Becomes a huge controvery - but thankfully Delorme saves the day and we select EP. 

2018 Hughes was consensus

 

2019 - Podkolzin and Hoglander were BPA - no issue here. 

2020 - Brackett is gone, Benning trades away picks and we have no pick in the top two rounds during a rebuild

 

2021 Only a 2nd round pick in the first four rounds. Creating a massive gap in the pipeline

I think Benning gets way too much credit when it comes to drafting. I think we could have had a potato as a GM and our picks would have been as good if not better. 

 

I also believe player development is also a big part of a GM's role, and Mike Gillis made the brilliant move of orchestrating the purchase of an AHL team. The relationship with the Chicago Wolves was one reason why our player development took a hit. Also during Benning's tenure he was quick to dismiss or demote a lot of prospects. Jordan Schroeder for example was an infitenly better player than Linden Vey but we tossed aside Schroeder to pay a 2nd for Vey, gift him with premium minutes only to have him absolutely suck. 

[Toews]

22 hours ago, AnthonyG said:

I try to explain.. and I’ll get to my point about a RHD… 
how do you rebuild with…

Bennings trade chips for “rebuilding/retooling” whatever the hell you want to call it

Kesler

Bieksa

Burrows

Hansen

most of these guys didnt even last another 2 seasons. Where was the v

You all agree we needed to rebuild…. How the hell do you expect one to “re” anything with those kind of “valuable” assets?

16 hours ago, AnthonyG said:

The Gillis era did absolutely nothing to extend our window to win. He ran this organization right into the ground in 5 years.

Meanwhile Boston who beat us in the finals continued to be a dominant organization for over a decade AFTER beating us. Gillis did what? Nothing. 
such a great GM he never got another job offer and went to working as a professor at UVIC. Lmfao

You are twisting yourself into a pretzel to defend Benning. On one hand you argue that much of the talent on that roster was aging out of the NHL and then you blame Gillis for not "extending our window". Boston's core was younger than the Canucks, Bergeron, Krecji, Marchand, Lucic were just coming into their prime. Chara was getting up there in years but still had a few good years left in him. Thomas was on the way out but the Bruins had a franchise goalie in Rask who was ready to take over. The Bruins were in a good position to retool, the Canucks were clearly an aging team and there was nothing Gillis could have done that could have stopped father time. After the disastrous Tortorella year, they should have rebuilt and Gillis had the foresight to see that coming. Instead the ownership hired Benning to do a retool which predictably failed. 

 

Also the same logic applies to Benning that you used against Gillis, if Benning was such a great GM you would think he would have had an interview for a front office job. Instead he is sitting on his couch counting the millions that he earned swindling this team into giving him 8 years on the job. A mediocre GM like Dubas lasted like a couple of weeks before he was snapped up, why hasn't Benning the draft whisperer not even been interviewed for a job?

[NewbieCanuckFan]

4 minutes ago, Toews said:

You are twisting yourself into a pretzel to defend Benning. On one hand you argue that much of the talent on that roster was aging out of the NHL and then you blame Gillis for not "extending our window". Boston's core was younger than the Canucks, Bergeron, Krecji, Marchand, Lucic were just coming into their prime. Chara was getting up there in years but still had a few good years left in him. Thomas was on the way out but the Bruins had a franchise goalie in Rask who was ready to take over. The Bruins were in a good position to retool, the Canucks were clearly an aging team and there was nothing Gillis could have done that could have stopped father time. After the disastrous Tortorella year, they should have rebuilt and Gillis had the foresight to see that coming. Instead the ownership hired Benning to do a retool which predictably failed. 

 

Also the same logic applies to Benning that you used against Gillis, if Benning was such a great GM you would think he would have had an interview for a front office job. Instead he is sitting on his couch counting the millions that he earned swindling this team into giving him 8 years on the job. A mediocre GM like Dubas lasted like a couple of weeks before he was snapped up, why hasn't Benning the draft whisperer not even been interviewed for a job?

I think is "connections" will get him a job (likely not a GM) in the NHL somebody.  He's part of the 'old boys network'.  That often trumps merit (who you know).  Frankly, I wouldn't trust Benning behind the counter at McDonalds.

Edited June 11, 2023 by NewbieCanuckFan

[iinatcc]

8 minutes ago, AnthonyG said:

I’ve lost the plot? Buddy you guys compare a GM who was handed a cup contending roster to a GM who had to deal with the aftermath of selling the entire future and failed to provide prospects and any real hope for a future outside of Horvat. 
Alf could have done the same job as Gillis. It didnt take rocket science to toss away picks and prospects to add to

Daniel

Henrik

Edler

Salo

Burrows

Kesler

Hansen

Luongo

Schneider

Raymond

 

 comparing a GM who had to rebuild from absolutely nothing to a GM who had the green light to go all in is absolutely ludicrous. Give your head a shake man

 

Gillis impact on the future was devastating. Benning at least put a bright light at the end of the tunnel, but you lack the patience to wait and see it through. Its just like when the twins struggled immensely from their draft year til they were 24 turning 25. Without the WCE, they would have been ruined and possibly moved out or gone back home. Bennings picks had to step in and produce right away because the guys who could have stayed another couple years, chose to retire early leaving no choice but to throw the kids in and let them play.

Their is plenty of talent under 25 that still have yet to make their mark. Have some bloody patience.

 

If what Gillis did was so easy why did Nonis get fired? Why didn't ownership just say he "with this team anyone could build a contender, let's just let Nonis keep his job".

 

Benning had 8 years to rebuild the team. Prospects or no, you would think some progress would have achieved in both building a playoff team and the farm system. So Benning was left with nothing, it's not like he left the organization better off. Canucks are currently ranked 3rd last in prospects (https://thehockeywriters.com/nhl-farm-system-rankings/) and the team has not made the playoffs in 3 years. You would think 7 or 8 years results would have been better.

 

 

[iinatcc]

6 minutes ago, Toews said:

You are twisting yourself into a pretzel to defend Benning. On one hand you argue that much of the talent on that roster was aging out of the NHL and then you blame Gillis for not "extending our window". Boston's core was younger than the Canucks, Bergeron, Krecji, Marchand, Lucic were just coming into their prime. Chara was getting up there in years but still had a few good years left in him. Thomas was on the way out but the Bruins had a franchise goalie in Rask who was ready to take over. The Bruins were in a good position to retool, the Canucks were clearly an aging team and there was nothing Gillis could have done that could have stopped father time. After the disastrous Tortorella year, they should have rebuilt and Gillis had the foresight to see that coming. Instead the ownership hired Benning to do a retool which predictably failed. 

 

Also the same logic applies to Benning that you used against Gillis, if Benning was such a great GM you would think he would have had an interview for a front office job. Instead he is sitting on his couch counting the millions that he earned swindling this team into giving him 8 years on the job. A mediocre GM like Dubas lasted like a couple of weeks before he was snapped up, why hasn't Benning the draft whisperer not even been interviewed for a job?

I honestly think he's related to Benning for some reason or Benning himself 

[NewbieCanuckFan]

20 minutes ago, iinatcc said:

If what Gillis did was so easy why did Nonis get fired? Why didn't ownership just say he "with this team anyone could build a contender, let's just let Nonis keep his job".

 

Benning had 8 years to rebuild the team. Prospects or no, you would think some progress would have achieved in both building a playoff team and the farm system. So Benning was left with nothing, it's not like he left the organization better off. Canucks are currently ranked 3rd last in prospects (https://thehockeywriters.com/nhl-farm-system-rankings/) and the team has not made the playoffs in 3 years. You would think 7 or 8 years results would have been better.

 

 

Which translates into *HIGHER* draft picks (even if you lose the lottery).  Something neither Nonis nor Gillis had to work with outside of ONE top ten pick.

 

edit:  ok two, but the other was Luc Bourdon.

[ilduce39]

14 hours ago, AnthonyG said:

He did not win. Boston won. And Boston continued dominating. Vancouver was dead in the water 3 years after appearing in the finals with no hope in hell. No future. Nothing. Done. Dead. Thanks Gillis for almost winning a cup, but it cost the future

I’ve always found a lot of the discussion around Gillis was positive because he oversaw some great teams then got fired in short order.
 

His best moves were Hamhuis, Ehrhoff, Malhotra plus Horvat and his mistakes were Ballard, Booth, Roy, Pahlsson, Hodgson/Kassian and overall poor drafting.

 

He should have been given the opportunity to rebuild but I think ownership wanted one last run with the Sedins - and to be fair Gillis’ later acquisitions and drafting sure didn’t help extend the window.

 

I think he was decent and had some nice ideas / patience when moving Schneider and Luongo.  But he also, clearly benefited from an all star core with elite players at every position and the best coach (hired by Nonis) in club history. 
 

Benning, meanwhile, inherited the worst combination of on ice talent and prospects since the old expansion teams and an owner who wanted it turned around in a hurry.  He didn’t do a good job overall but Petey, Hughes, Demko, Boeser and Miller are some pretty big highlights.  
 

Should have been let go after allowing Tanev, Toffoli and Markstrom to walk for nothing and before the OEL trade… but oh well.

[NewbieCanuckFan]

4 minutes ago, ilduce39 said:

I’ve always found a lot of the discussion around Gillis was positive because he oversaw some great teams then got fired in short order.
 

His best moves were Hamhuis, Ehrhoff, Malhotra plus Horvat and his mistakes were Ballard, Booth, Roy, Pahlsson, Hodgson/Kassian and overall poor drafting.

 

He should have been given the opportunity to rebuild but I think ownership wanted one last run with the Sedins - and to be fair Gillis’ later acquisitions and drafting sure didn’t help extend the window.

 

I think he was decent and had some nice ideas / patience when moving Schneider and Luongo.  But he also, clearly benefited from an all star core with elite players at every position and the best coach (hired by Nonis) in club history. 
 

Benning, meanwhile, inherited the worst combination of on ice talent and prospects since the old expansion teams and an owner who wanted it turned around in a hurry.  He didn’t do a good job overall but Petey, Hughes, Demko, Boeser and Miller are some pretty big highlights.  
 

Should have been let go after allowing Tanev, Toffoli and Markstrom to walk for nothing and before the OEL trade… but oh well.

He remains a 'work in process'.  Maybe Tocchet can develop him into more than a 'one trick pony' (eg., if he's not scoring goals - he's yet to break 30 goals in a season - he's a liability on the ice with a not cheap cap hit).  He also let Hamhuis walk for nothing.

Edited June 11, 2023 by NewbieCanuckFan

[DSVII]

1 hour ago, AnthonyG said:

I’ve lost the plot?

 

I re-summarize my posts. In fact, from all the posts you couldn't even reply to because frankly, you have no good counter argument. 

 

Your "woe is me, Benning had it so tough" arguments make no sense, because every GM had to deal with 1.) Flat Cap 2.) Expansion Draft , and JB dealing with these same circumstances, is probably in the bottom 10th percentile of the league for Wins, cap space management and draft capital accumulation. 

 

The Covid outbreak happened when the team had <10% chance of making playoffs. And had to play at a 107 point pace from February onwards to even make playoffs. The outbreak was March 30th.

 

Benning tried to make playoffs every year, he sold the farm and mortgage picks to do this since 2015. We've entered each draft with less draft capital than a 15th place team. And are capped like a top 3 team. That is Benning's fault.

 

The cap recapture was an arbitrary retro the league did, so I don't blame GMMG for that. Now as for Benning, could he have possibly made a move to avoid it? It was on the table and if he couldn't execute to stop such a big obstacle on his 2,3,4,5 year plan, then that's on him 

 

Now back to question one. Which is a twist on this thread.

 

What good did Benning do for this franchise over 8 years if you remove Petey/Hughes/Demko from the equation?

 

Quote

Buddy you guys compare a GM who was handed a cup contending roster to a GM who had to deal with the aftermath of selling the entire future and failed to provide prospects and any real hope for a future outside of Horvat. 
Alf could have done the same job as Gillis. It didnt take rocket science to toss away picks and prospects to add to

Daniel

Henrik

Edler

Salo

Burrows

Kesler

Hansen

Luongo

Schneider

Raymond

 

 comparing a GM who had to rebuild from absolutely nothing to a GM who had the green light to go all in is absolutely ludicrous. Give your head a shake man

The notion that a core is instantly guaranteed a cup without any tweaks or active management is comically ignorant. (Just ask Edmonton and Toronto how elite cores are working for them).  This 'core' missed playoffs two of the three years before GMMG came in. He also did with Dubas couldn't, and negotiate the twins to team friendly deals as UFA.

 

Putting together a stanley cup team actually does take rocket science, that's why teams have capologists and front offices. That's why Benning is being dragged through the mud throwing picks and prospects away for Clendenning, Sbisa, Sutter, Dickinson, OEL, etc...

 

Going by your logic, why didn't Benning win with Petey and Hughes and Demko in their ELCs? This core is obviously good enough to contend with. Because anything after drafting your core is basically auto pilot right? 

 

Again, back to my question number 2. Gillis only had a few months after trading Cory Schneider to restock the cupboards when it was evidently against the Owner's wishes. He put his neck on the line to try and get a rebuild going and was canned for it before he had a chance to do anything, he even had Dylan Larkin on his draft board with the #6 pick, which combined with Bo would have been a good start down the middle. What more would you have him do since he was fired? What was your expectation?

 

You're being completely ignorant of how hockey works and twisting everything to your narrative. I'm sorry to say, but Benning's rep is as one of the worst GMs in our franchise and league. And no matter how much you capitalize your words in a FACEBookMEme Argument, it's not changing that.

 

 

Let's not forget the hilarity of this moving goalpost.

 

2009-2011 - this is an auto-win cup core! 

2012-2014 - dead in the water, worthless, untradeable.

 

Quote

Gillis impact on the future was devastating. Benning at least put a bright light at the end of the tunnel, but you lack the patience to wait and see it through. Its just like when the twins struggled immensely from their draft year til they were 24 turning 25. Without the WCE, they would have been ruined and possibly moved out or gone back home. Bennings picks had to step in and produce right away because the guys who could have stayed another couple years, chose to retire early leaving no choice but to throw the kids in and let them play.

Their is plenty of talent under 25 that still have yet to make their mark. Have some bloody patience.

On the contrary, this market was screaming for patience. Accumulating draft picks when we weren't good and not rush any of the kids.

 

What Benning did in making his win now trades is not patience.

Throwing Virtanen, McCann, Hoglander, Podz straight into the NHL is not patience.

 

Every aspect of this org, from the scouting staff (Brackett), the training staff (Burnstein), the front office (Gilman) has been rotted to the core by Benning. And you cheer this on. 

 

It will take 5-10 years to get rid of the rot that Benning has left on this franchise. And you know what. I am very patient about it. I'm not going anywhere. 

 

Quote

leaving no choice but to throw the kids in and let them play.

There was a choice. Sign cheap UFAs and rebuild. That is an excuse.  Benning was able to deploy 30-35% of the cap to his original contracts. he had the flexibility. He was just plain bad.

 

He ended up paying premiums from a position of strength (Sutter, OEL, to a lesser extent JT) because the concept of cap space as an asset was alien to him. While teams now are squeezing us to get out of his mistakes (Dickinson,Garland,myers)

 

 

 

Anyways, this has been a fun morning, cheerio! 

Edited June 11, 2023 by DSVII

[Fred65]

10 hours ago, DSVII said:

 

You've lost the plot my friend. Take care.

 

Do try and answer those questions when you have a chance. I'm genuinely curious.

This is like the Trumpers. You can shower them with facts but they continue to believe fantasy

[ilduce39]

7 minutes ago, NewbieCanuckFan said:

He remains a 'work in process'.  Maybe Tocchet can develop him into more than a 'one trick pony' (eg., if he's not scoring goals - he's yet to break 30 goals in a season - he's a liability on the ice with a not cheap cap hit).  He also let Hamhuis walk for nothing.

I agree Boeser’s legacy is still being written - but if Malhotra is a major star for Gillis after not even a full healthy season, I think Boeser counts for Benning.   He’s also a pretty good distributor and good on the boards if he does have some work to do defensively.
 

Closing in on top 20 all time Canuck scoring with a #23 overall pick is pretty good work. 

[Fred65]

2 minutes ago, ilduce39 said:

I agree Boeser’s legacy is still being written - but if Malhotra is a major star for Gillis after not even a full healthy season, I think Boeser counts for Benning.   He’s also a pretty good distributor and good on the boards if he does have some work to do defensively.
 

Closing in on top 20 all time Canuck scoring with a #23 overall pick is pretty good work. 

Wih all these skills you'd think he'd be easy to trade, but no one wants him. The real BB is not the BB that some make him out to be

[ilduce39]

1 minute ago, Fred65 said:

Wih all these skills you'd think he'd be easy to trade, but no one wants him. The real BB is not the BB that some make him out to be

No one is easy to trade right now. Let alone anyone with a near 7 mil contract.  Good or not.

[NewbieCanuckFan]

9 minutes ago, ilduce39 said:

I agree Boeser’s legacy is still being written - but if Malhotra is a major star for Gillis after not even a full healthy season, I think Boeser counts for Benning.   He’s also a pretty good distributor and good on the boards if he does have some work to do defensively.
 

Closing in on top 20 all time Canuck scoring with a #23 overall pick is pretty good work.  

Maholtra was a good supporting cast member and he didn't come with a big cap hit.  Boeser isn't cheap capwise.  He's paid on what he could be.

Edited June 11, 2023 by NewbieCanuckFan

[Fred65]

6 minutes ago, ilduce39 said:

No one is easy to trade right now. Let alone anyone with a near 7 mil contract.  Good or not.

And he isn't .....good. One thing he could do is to loose some weight and be willing to sacrifice. No one is knocking on the door for a bargain pick up because he isn't .... a bargain pick up 

[ilduce39]

6 minutes ago, NewbieCanuckFan said:

Maholtra was a good supporting cast member and he didn't come with a big cap hit.  Boeser isn't cheap capwise.

Malhotra had almost one good season before he got hurt, struggled big time as a 2.5 mil 4th liner in his 2nd season and was shut down by Gillis after 9 games in his 3rd.  
 

I don’t like Boeser’s current cap hit either but he’s made a much bigger positive on-ice impact with the club than Malhotra did and it’s not particularly close.

[ilduce39]

4 minutes ago, Fred65 said:

And he isn't .....good. One thing he could do is to loose some weight and be willing to sacrifice. No one is knocking on the door for a bargain pick up because he isn't .... a bargain pick up 

He’s led the team in scoring twice and sits at around 25 all time Canuck scoring.  He’s definitely “good” and I don’t think management was ever looking to give him away.
 

Given what he’s been through I think it’s more than fair to give him a chance to get back on track under Tocchet, who seems to love him. 

[Fred65]

10 minutes ago, ilduce39 said:

He’s led the team in scoring twice and sits at around 25 all time Canuck scoring.  He’s definitely “good” and I don’t think management was ever looking to give him away.
 

Given what he’s been through I think it’s more than fair to give him a chance to get back on track under Tocchet, who seems to love him. 

I'm sorry what he's been through is no excuse. Likely every one on here has lost a parent and you know what you get up next day and go back to work. It's not nice but neither is life all the time. That excuse is getting a little long in the tooth IMHO. I'd like to be shocked wth a turn around  next season if he's still here but I have serious reservation

[NewbieCanuckFan]

1 hour ago, ilduce39 said:

Malhotra had almost one good season before he got hurt, struggled big time as a 2.5 mil 4th liner in his 2nd season and was shut down by Gillis after 9 games in his 3rd.  
 

I don’t like Boeser’s current cap hit either but he’s made a much bigger positive on-ice impact with the club than Malhotra did and it’s not particularly close.

Agree to disagree.

 

It's significantly easier to have an impact on a club that it a lottery pick team vs a team that is trying to compete in the post-season.  Vigneault wouldn't even have given Boeser more than a cup of coffee on the ice with those teams unless he learned some basic defensive ability (though that's more the fault of Boeser's previous coaches imho).

 

Heck, with our "center depth" today, Maholtra with his only one good eye might make a fight for the 4th C spot today.

Edited June 11, 2023 by NewbieCanuckFan