Jim Bennings legacy without the OEL trade. Grade him out of 10.

[NewbieCanuckFan]

1 hour ago, canuck73_3 said:

Still made the right move no matter how he got there and did so again with Hughes and previously with Demko. No need to ignore facts. 

It was more about how laughable it seems to me crediting Ron Delorme of all people for "finding Elias".  Jim Benning at least has a respectable history of amateur scouting work (re: Buffalo days, etc.,).  I'd run out of time (like Benning ) listing all the 'misses' in our own backyard while Delorme was in charge of amateur scouting in Western Canada for the Canucks.  I forgot the name of the "prospect" Delorme argued Benning or Gillis to select because said player 'had such a great looking practice".  Might've Mackenzie Stewart?

 

 

Edited June 10, 2023 by NewbieCanuckFan

[arsenalian]

55 minutes ago, iinatcc said:

I guess regular season results is the easiest to measure because all 32 teams participate in the regular season. Plus it's easier to measure w/o context, people can make fun of Kyle Dubas of never having a team that made it past the 1st round (except this year) but it's hard to measure, in raw numbers, that since the Leafs also were elimnated by teams that ended up making it to the finals (mostly). 

I get that, but that table is omitting swaths of data. I mean add Chiarelli’s Soiler years and he drops down that table a few spots, add JR’s Pittsburgh years he goes up, etc. Just a really weird chart. I guess looking at it again, it’s rookie GMs with their first teams? Anyway, doesn’t matter, the table just threw me for a loop

[AnthonyG]

On 6/8/2023 at 2:34 PM, DSVII said:

Oh yes. Let's remove possibly the single worst transaction in franchise history from the record, and then he's probably mediocre! 

 

Signing a max deal is not an indicator of a bad GM, it's knowing the context where you should and shouldn't do it. Petey is going to get a max deal and that's not likely to turn out to  a bad thing for instance.

 

The thing about Benning isn't that there is one transaction you can pin it on, but a cascade of consistently bad decisions that add up to a pile of crap. The offseason of 2020 didn't happen just because of Loui, but also because of Myers, Pearson, Sutter, Beagle, Roussel etc....it takes a holistic view to properly gauge the damage he's done to the franchise.

 

3/10 or 4/10 if i want to pin the blame on Aqua. And each point is essentially for (Petey/Hughes/Demko)

 

 

 

Gillis did no wrong though right?

smh

[DSVII]

42 minutes ago, AnthonyG said:

Gillis did no wrong though right?

smh

Not even the argument smh.

 

 

[Ballisticsports.]

4 hours ago, canuck73_3 said:

Even so he deferred to Delorme and it's worked out brilliantly, can't fault him for making the right decision even if he had to be sold on it. 

I never heard of a GM that doesn't rely on the scouts  recommendations

The GM will ask who is the BPA  now and upside

Every good GM i've heard drafting never takes the credit and says it is the scouts day and almost all the good GM go on record as saying in the 1st round you always pick the BPA

[AnthonyG]

25 minutes ago, DSVII said:

Not even the argument smh.

 

 

No its just comical the comment about the “disaster” left behind, yet his cleaning duties were farrrrrrr heavier than PA and JR are tasked with. 

Also had to deal with

a flat cap

Cap recapture

2 expansion drafts

COVID outbreak that shut the team down for an entire month mid season (never happened before and the only team ever to deal with it) along with the most insane scheduling to close out that season after a virus just ruined an entire team and ended one guys career for sure.

Little to no assets the day he took over to accelerate any type of rebuild or retool

 

What was your actual expectation for JB when he took over?

 

I’m very curious to know. 

[Ballisticsports.]

12 minutes ago, AnthonyG said:

No its just comical the comment about the “disaster” left behind, yet his cleaning duties were farrrrrrr heavier than PA and JR are tasked with. 

Also had to deal with

a flat cap

Cap recapture

2 expansion drafts

COVID outbreak that shut the team down for an entire month mid season (never happened before and the only team ever to deal with it) along with the most insane scheduling to close out that season after a virus just ruined an entire team and ended one guys career for sure.

Little to no assets the day he took over to accelerate any type of rebuild or retool

 

What was your actual expectation for JB when he took over?

 

I’m very curious to know. 

I took him for his word at the beginning

Turns out he only amassed players instead of building a team

You asked someone what their expectations of JB were?

 

How about JB own words ?

 

 Back in 2016, he laid out a timeline for when the team would be a true contender.

 

“Realistically, if you’re asking me when will the day be that we can compete with the best teams in the league, I think that [Sedin contract] timeline is fair,” said Benning. “This is year two, and by our fourth or fifth year, I hope we’ll be there with the elite teams in the league.”

The Sedins’ contracts ended and they retired without getting back to the playoffs. So MANY years late rand the Canucks are Still not there with the elite teams. They’re in all likelihood not even a playoff team. 

When asked when fans could expect the Canucks to be an elite team, Benning equivocated.

“We're gonna have to have patience. When you talk about drafting, developing, and when these players are ready to play, stepping in,” he said. “We have some players that step in right away like Petey and Quinn and they have success right away and then there's other players like Olli Juolevi that takes a little bit longer to develop.”

In response to later questions asking for more of a plan or a timeline, Benning said that, after seven years, he needs a couple more.

 

The guy wasn't a builder

 

[Timråfan]

6 hours ago, canuck73_3 said:

lol your overvaluing of spare parts is tedious and annoying. Dahlen is a useless asset get the fk over it already. 

You still try to talk about someone else then Benning. Why?

It is Benning that showed how bad his moral compass was.

Not a player…

[AnthonyG]

1 hour ago, Ballisticsports. said:

I took him for his word at the beginning

Turns out he only amassed players instead of building a team

So what do you mean by “he only amassed players instead of building a team” 

I’d like to understand your perspective.

[Timråfan]

3 hours ago, AnthonyG said:

So what do you mean by “he only amassed players instead of building a team” 

I’d like to understand your perspective.

I try to explain.

Take the OEL trade.

We got a short player, an offensive LHD and lost a 9OA.

What we needed was a big player, and offensive RHD and players coming in on ELC.

Edited June 10, 2023 by Timråfan

[Miss Korea Bob.Loblaw]

15 hours ago, MaxVerstappen33 said:

It was bad but wasn't even the worst free agent signing of 2016. 

 

2	Kyle Okposo – RW	Islanders	Sabres	7 yrs, $42M ($6.0M AAV)
3	Loui Eriksson – RW	Bruins	Canucks	6 yrs, $36M ($6.0M AAV)
4	Milan Lucic – LW	Kings	Oilers	7 yrs, $42M ($6.0M AAV)
5	David Backes – C	Blues	Bruins	5 yrs, $30M ($6.0M AAV)
6	Andrew Ladd – LW	Blackhawks	Islanders	7 yrs, $38.5M ($5.5M AAV)

The famous 2016 free agent list:  

 

[DownUndaCanuck]

Can't ignore those bad deals, at the end of the day he has to take the blame for the bad signings and moves and desperation, but I think it's a lot more complex than just JB. 

 

Firstly, a lot of blame should go onto our scouts who decided LE and OEL were worth it. Blame our drafting/scouts for ranking Juolevi and Virtanen higher than Tkachuk and Nylander respectively. JB takes the fall on them. Conversely, he deserves credit for picking two super-stars in Hughes and Petey where a few other teams passed on them. 50% bust rate in top-10 picks is certainly not good, but Petey and Hughes should be top-3 picks so I think the drafting is a bit of a write-off. Don't forget he plucked Demko out of nowhere in the 2nd round who is now arguably a top-5 goalie.

 

One thing I respected about JB is that he would make moves when the team needed them, and instantly. Sure they were rash, but he worked quickly. If we needed a defenceman, he'd go out and sign or trade for one. It was desperate and fast but it addressed out teams needs instantly. I remember GM MG or Nonis were a bit slower in this regard, maybe a bit more patient. So far Allvin was a bit slow in doing it but he's slowly addressing our main needs.

 

JB's valuation of players was terrible, whether it be OEL or LE or anyone, and his use of picks was pretty bad. These were desperate moves, who knows if they were forced upon him by ownership or not.

 

The big thing which gets forgotten about is coaching, and I think this should be why JB got fired - not his wreckless trading. He had Desjardins and Green at the helm and they were terrible coaches. I think the main reason he lost is job is that he didn't fire Green fast enough. Go figure, Green goes and the same team (which JB had constructed) goes on to be a top-10 team in the league in 60 games of the season. If Green was canned in the off-season and we had a decent NHL coach, who knows, we could have been (and probably should have been) a playoff team and JB is still GM. We have good pieces on paper but on-ice we were shambles everywhere.

 

I wouldn't say JB is the worst GM ever, I'd say he was average, but average just isn't good enough. I was quite happy with the intention of a lot of his trades, questioned his valuation and scouting though.

 

So far Allvin has done an average job too, I don't give him credit for the Bo or Hronek trade because any buffoon can trade away a top center who is in his prime scoring at a 50 goal pace, and any idiot can trade a 1st and 2nd round pick and get some sort of value back. He's attempted a lot of shrewd low-value deals as well, like the acquisitions of Studnicka and Bear who were useless to their former teams, as sort of projects, and again - no credit there because they're basically waiver pick ups. I like the way he's addressing our needs though - the Hronek deal was JB-esque and we have to see if our scouting paid off as to whether he fits our team structure or not. Again, a big plus for Allvin is coaching - he's gotten Toccket, Foote and Gonchar in because he could see we're a mess defensively. I'll be cautious - it looks good on paper but these guys don't have great coaching track records. It would make sense that they work well but their coaching records are pretty brief compared to their playing records so we'll see. I know PA's been GM for a while but we still have to wait to see how all this stuff pans out - Raty, Hronek and our defensive coaches.

 

That being said next year is massive for Allvin. I think it's simple - make the playoffs and he's a great GM. Fail to make the playoffs and we're in big, big trouble.

[DSVII]

13 hours ago, AnthonyG said:

No its just comical the comment about the “disaster” left behind, yet his cleaning duties were farrrrrrr heavier than PA and JR are tasked with. 

Also had to deal with

a flat cap

Cap recapture

2 expansion drafts

 

The only thing comical about this whole thing is the amount of fluff you're trying to buffer JB with. 

 

The bolded would be more convincing if 31 other GMs also didn't go through the same thing, with a fair share of them thriving in that environment. This is an excuse in the purest form and does not mitigate anything on Benning's part.

 

Quote

COVID outbreak that shut the team down for an entire month mid season (never happened before and the only team ever to deal with it) along with the most insane scheduling to close out that season after a virus just ruined an entire team and ended one guys career for sure.

Two things about the outbreak:

 

1.) It happened March 30th, by then the season was more than half over and lost. The Canucks had a sub 10% chance of making playoffs one month before the outbreak and needed to be playing at a 107 pace from February onwards to make playoffs. Benning's prized acquisition in Toffoli almost single handedly sinking our season. It sucked, but it was not the reason why we missed playoffs. The 2020 offseason was. Benning lost the 2021 year before it even began because he 'ran out of time'. 

 

2.) If anything, the Covid outbreak highlighted Benning's shortcomings as a leader even more. Where was his leadership when that happened? It took JT Miller stepping up a week after the outbreak and telling the media that the team was uncomfortable playing and getting the league to reschedule and give the team the rest they needed.

 

Quote

Little to no assets the day he took over to accelerate any type of rebuild or retool

He inherited a 100+ point team that made playoffs the following year. With moveable assets like Kesler, Hamhuis and Garrison and 30%-35% of the cap to play with (by the start of the 2015-16 season, roughly $26M of the $73M in annual team cap hit were new contracts signed by Benning) . That's more than enough cap flexibility for any rebuild/retool. Plus A future captain in Bo #1 goalie in Markstrom, a top pairing in Edler/Tanev.

 

Even when he chose to sit on the assets like Burrows and Hansen till they depreciated to nothing, he still got assets for them, as opposed to now where Canucks have to pay to get Benning's contracts off the books.

Give me the 2015 team and the upcoming drafts to rebuild/retool with over what JR/PA took over any day. Benning made this team miss out on a generation of talent. 

 

I'll pre-empt you as well. Yes, Gillis failed to provide Benning with a prospect pool in the few months he had left in his time here when decided to rebuild against Aquilini's wishes. The above still left Benning a pretty impressive template to start with and put his mark on the team.

 

Quote

What was your actual expectation for JB when he took over?

 

I’m very curious to know. 

1.) Up til 2015, go for it, then rebuild.

2.) Be mindful of a buyer and seller's market. Don't trade away picks and sign cheap veterans to mentor the picks you do get. Buy low, sell high.

3.) Develop the prospects you draft rather than rush them

4.) Manage the cap properly and see cap space as a weapon to use when rebuilding.

5.) When rebuilding, enter each draft with more draft capital than a playoff team

 

Believe it or not, I started out as pro-Benning, defended him up until 2016. Walking away from that year with less assets than a playoff team while you're third last was inexcusable. It felt like every other team was either gunning for the cup or rebuilding with intent. Canucks under Benning were just....there.

 

I'm very curious with you as well, a reverse of this thread's premise.

 

1.) Can you say what long term good Benning has done for the club without mentioning three draft picks? Petey/Hughes/Demko? Because that's really it after 8 years of futility.

 

2.) What did you expect Gillis to leave Benning with on the farm considering he's only a year removed from trying to go for it as a President's trophy winner and trading picks away for one last shot in 2013? He only had time to do one rebuild move trading Schneider away for Bo, and trying to rebuild against the owner's wishes which literally got him fired? What more could he have done in your eyes?

Edited June 10, 2023 by DSVII

[AnthonyG]

8 hours ago, Timråfan said:

I try to explain.

Take the OEL trade.

We got a short player, an offensive LHD and lost a 9OA.

What we needed was a big player, and offensive RHD and players coming in on ELC.

I try to explain.. and I’ll get to my point about a RHD… 
how do you rebuild with…

Bennings trade chips for “rebuilding/retooling” whatever the hell you want to call it

Kesler

Bieksa

Burrows

Hansen

most of these guys didnt even last another 2 seasons. Where was the v

You all agree we needed to rebuild…. How the hell do you expect one to “re” anything with those kind of “valuable” assets?

 

drafting Tryamkin who ran away home, McCancer, Virtanen (mismanaged), Juolevi who had unforeseeable injuries, Gadjovich who he lost on waivers and Lind to the expansion draft was all beneficial to a rebuilding organization?

 

 

The jury is still out on guys like Woo, Rathbone, Karlsson, Klimovich, Jurmo and many others. 
 

No fan here has gone through a rebuild. This is the worst stretch of hockey this fan base has ever gone through thanks to strong drafting in the past that made for seamless transitions into the new era each and every time, up until Nonis and especially Gillis, failed heavily to draft and develop the new era of Canucks that would take over for the twins. This is what the major set back was for JB who was expected to be a playoff team, rebuild at the same time and be a contender in under 5 years. You look at almost every single cup winner the last 30 years, it take a minimum of 8 years on average to start competing and then contending when rebuilding without doing a complete tear down.

Edmonton, Florida, Buffalo, Tampa, Chicago, Hell VGK if you break down those career paths, took problably an average of 10 years to get where they are in their careers, this is just a few teams to mention. 

 

How do you acquire a top 4 RHD which is a very rare and tough commodity in the NHL, with little to no valuable trade chips outside of your newly drafted core or your 1st round pick? A top 4 RHD is either going to be found through free agency, or you are going to pay more than what you gave up for OEL. Lets be real, RHD will cost you more. 

 

This fan base has zero patience because we are so used to being successful. The Snepst, Gradin and Smyl era to The Linden/Bure era into the WCE into the twins….. into the Pettersson/Hughes era… 18 years a part in drafts….. every other era was a seamless transition, up until the twins retired. Burke made his impact on the future, Nonis and Gillis failed miserably to make an impact on the future. They had almost no bearing on the new era, Pettersson is a Benning guy, along with Hughes and Demko and this is the new era. Have some bloody patience, our core is mostly under 25. The twins took til they were Petterssons age to become stars and even then, they still were nowhere near the point production Pettersson is at. There was no support for the twins in their final years from legitimate impactful youth players, Boeser and Horvat were not taking over the reigns….  Have some bloody patience, we are just now witnessing EP Airlines taking off. We have MANY years of good hockey ahead. You guys act like this is the end.

[Timråfan]

17 minutes ago, AnthonyG said:

I try to explain.. and I’ll get to my point about a RHD… 
how do you rebuild with…

Bennings trade chips for “rebuilding/retooling” whatever the hell you want to call it

Kesler

Bieksa

Burrows

Hansen

most of these guys didnt even last another 2 seasons. Where was the v

You all agree we needed to rebuild…. How the hell do you expect one to “re” anything with those kind of “valuable” assets?

 

drafting Tryamkin who ran away home, McCancer, Virtanen (mismanaged), Juolevi who had unforeseeable injuries, Gadjovich who he lost on waivers and Lind to the expansion draft was all beneficial to a rebuilding organization?

 

 

The jury is still out on guys like Woo, Rathbone, Karlsson, Klimovich, Jurmo and many others. 
 

No fan here has gone through a rebuild. This is the worst stretch of hockey this fan base has ever gone through thanks to strong drafting in the past that made for seamless transitions into the new era each and every time, up until Nonis and especially Gillis, failed heavily to draft and develop the new era of Canucks that would take over for the twins. This is what the major set back was for JB who was expected to be a playoff team, rebuild at the same time and be a contender in under 5 years. You look at almost every single cup winner the last 30 years, it take a minimum of 8 years on average to start competing and then contending when rebuilding without doing a complete tear down.

Edmonton, Florida, Buffalo, Tampa, Chicago, Hell VGK if you break down those career paths, took problably an average of 10 years to get where they are in their careers, this is just a few teams to mention. 

 

How do you acquire a top 4 RHD which is a very rare and tough commodity in the NHL, with little to no valuable trade chips outside of your newly drafted core or your 1st round pick? A top 4 RHD is either going to be found through free agency, or you are going to pay more than what you gave up for OEL. Lets be real, RHD will cost you more. 

 

This fan base has zero patience because we are so used to being successful. The Snepst, Gradin and Smyl era to The Linden/Bure era into the WCE into the twins….. into the Pettersson/Hughes era… 18 years a part in drafts….. every other era was a seamless transition, up until the twins retired. Burke made his impact on the future, Nonis and Gillis failed miserably to make an impact on the future. They had almost no bearing on the new era, Pettersson is a Benning guy, along with Hughes and Demko and this is the new era. Have some bloody patience, our core is mostly under 25. The twins took til they were Petterssons age to become stars and even then, they still were nowhere near the point production Pettersson is at. There was no support for the twins in their final years from legitimate impactful youth players, Boeser and Horvat were not taking over the reigns….  Have some bloody patience, we are just now witnessing EP Airlines taking off. We have MANY years of good hockey ahead. You guys act like this is the end.

Hmm, I take that long post as you agree with me about how bad Benning tried to build a team. 

[canuck73_3]

16 hours ago, Ballisticsports. said:

I never heard of a GM that doesn't rely on the scouts  recommendations

The GM will ask who is the BPA  now and upside

Every good GM i've heard drafting never takes the credit and says it is the scouts day and almost all the good GM go on record as saying in the 1st round you always pick the BPA

Of course but he wasn't an authoritarian here on drafting here though. Nor should he get shit on for every miss and not given credit for every hit. 
 

The group as a collective had hits and misses. And it does show intelligence and humility to have a guy you would like to draft but defer to the scouts recommendation. 
 

Credit to the staff including Benning for collectively coming to the right pick no matter how it came about. 

[AnthonyG]

3 hours ago, Timråfan said:

Hmm, I take that long post as you agree with me about how bad Benning tried to build a team. 

He built a better team than Nonis and Gillass combined.

[Alflives]

Just now, AnthonyG said:

He built a better team than Nonis and Gillass combined.

Sure Benning was great! Gillis teams only won two President’s trophies. Benning’s great team won three! Gillis’ team only got to game seven of the Cup Final. Benning’s best team celebrated a parade down Georgia! Gillis only got voted by his peers as GM of the year once. Benning won 8 times! 

[Timråfan]

12 minutes ago, AnthonyG said:

He built a better team than Nonis and Gillass combined.

Hm, explain and do it in a fair way like a GM that can draft a lot of better than 10OA has a much better chans to get a star than someone who draft later when the lottery starts.

[Alflives]

Just now, Timråfan said:

Hm, explain and do it in a fair way like a GM that can draft a lot of better than 10OA has a much better chans to get a star than someone who draft later when the lottery starts.

Yup. Gillis won two Presidents’ trophies, GM of the year, and his club got to game seven of the Cup Final. Benning