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Bourque Vs. Lidstrom


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#1 VanNuck

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 01:26 PM

Just recently, pundits have been beginning to tout Niklas Lidstrom as the second greatest blueliner behind Bobby Orr, in lieu of his seven Norris trophies and longevity. I actually go one step further and would tout him as better than Orr himself, but that is another subject for another time. But there is still another blueliner who deserves acknowledgement: Ray Bourque, the Bruins’ other great blueliner.

Harry Sinden, who had coached both Bourque and Orr, indicated that Bourque had been the better defensive defenseman of the two, so that ought to count heavily for Bourque.

Like Lidstrom, Bourque too had good vision and intuition, which served him well on defense, but he had many other assets: he was faster, more physical, and a better shooter. He was also more potent offensively, averaging around 80 points per season, until his last three or four seasons – during which time, he still scored around 50 points. Lidstrom, well the best offensive season he ever had was 80 points – he is nowhere near on pace for catching Bourque.

Bourque has won only five Norris trophies, but I feel he deserved a few more – especially in 1984, after a 31-goal, 93-point season, but the Norris instead went to Rod Langway who never scored more than three goals in a season. He never won the Cup until his final season, unlike Triple Gold Club member Lidstrom, but that had more to do with their teams as a whole – and timing. Lidstrom’s Red Wings were paramount in the league, while Bourque’s Bruins in their best days were stuck behind the powerhouse Oilers.

So what do you guys think? Who is the better defender, Bourque or Lidstrom?

#2 Spitfire_Spiky

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 01:30 PM

I'd go with Lidstrom for an all around defensemen and Bourque as the offensive defenseman. You also gotta realize when Bourque put up his big numbers was while the league average for goals was much higher than it today for Lidstrom.
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#3 Teemu Selänne

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 01:37 PM

Lidstrom easy!

Players often get glorified long after they've retired.

4 Stanley Cups. Led OG defenseman in points & won gold. SEVEN Norris trophies. 258 playoff games. WC Gold, Silver and Bronze (for SWEDEN).

#4 Shift-4

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 01:46 PM

Coin flip for me
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#5 ajhockey

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 02:08 PM

It is close, but I'd have to say Lidstrom.

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#6 mau5trap

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 02:51 PM

Lidstrom

Okay next topic:

Apples Vs. Oranges

Go

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#7 Madness

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 02:57 PM

Lidstrom.

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#8 -Vintage Canuck-

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 03:13 PM

Lidstrom by a hair.

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#9 Spitfire_Spiky

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 03:18 PM

Lidstrom

Okay next topic:

Apples Vs. Oranges

Go


Well that depends on the type of apple.
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#10 Kubrick

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 03:31 PM

Another great Lidstrom stat:

Never played a game for the Boston Bruins.
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#11 Rink on Renfrew

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 03:51 PM

Hmmm well this is a tough one for me. I was very young when #77 played, plus the coverage just wasn't there when Ray played.

Defenseman had a lot more freedom and smaller goalies back in the day so a 80 point season would most likely average 65 or less in this era/dead puck era.

Lidstroms hockey IQ is off the charts, not a slight on Bourque but I'd side with Lidstrom, he makes everything so easy for his teammates.

#12 Strawberries

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 04:00 PM

Lidstrom is the best dman ever to play the game imo
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#13 Wolfman Jack

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 04:11 PM

Bourque

Among his numerous other records and honors are the following:
  • Retired third (second among defencemen), and is currently eighth (fourth among defencemen), in all-time games played with 1,612.
  • Retired second, and is currently fourth, in all-time assists with 1,169; this is still a record for defencemen.
  • Is eleventh in all-time points scored with 1,579.
  • Is first in all-time points scored by a defenceman with 1,579.
  • Is first in all-time defence goals scored with 410.
  • The career leader in shots on goal with 6,206, nearly one thousand ahead of the second leading shooter, Marcel Dionne.[18]
  • Led the NHL in shots in 1984, 1987, and 1995.
  • Is third in all-time cumulative plus-minus with 528, behind Larry Robinson and Orr.[3]
  • Won the Norris Trophy in 1987, 1988, 1990, 1991, and 1994.
  • Won the King Clancy Memorial Trophy in 1992.
  • Received the Lester Patrick Trophy in 2003.
  • Named a NHL First Team All-Star in 1980, 1982, 1984, 1985, 1987, 1988, 1990, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994, 1996, and 2001.
  • Named a Second Team All-Star in 1981, 1983, 1986, 1989, 1995 and 1999.
  • Became only the sixth defenceman in professional history to score 30 goals in a season (1984).
  • Became only the third defenceman in professional history to reach the 1,000 NHL points milestone (1992)
  • Is the Bruins' all-time career leader in games played (1,518), assists (1,111) and points (1,506), also ranking fourth in goals and first in assists with a single team (any position).
  • Registered his 1,528th point Oct. 25, 2000, vs. Nashville, passing Paul Coffey as the NHL's all-time leader among defencemen.
  • Registered his 1,137th assist Dec. 21, 2000, vs. L.A. Kings, passing Coffey for second place on the NHL's all-time assists list and first among defencemen.
  • Named to play in the All-Star Game for the 19th consecutive season, passing Wayne Gretzky for the league record, 2001; Bourque also appeared in the All-Star Game in every season that it was held during his career (there was no game in 1987 or 1995).
  • Was named the Most Valuable Player of the All-Star Game in 1996.
  • Is third all-time in playoff assists and tenth all-time in playoff points.
  • In 1998, three years before the end of his career, he was ranked number 14 on The Hockey News' list of the one hundred greatest hockey players of all time. He was the highest-ranking player who had not yet won a Stanley Cup, the next highest being No. 38-ranked Dionne.[19]
  • Stanley Cup champion — 2001.

Edited by Persona Non Grata, 30 March 2012 - 04:22 PM.

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#14 -Vintage Canuck-

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 04:12 PM

Lidstrom is the best dman ever to play the game imo


Bobby Orr?

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#15 Grapes-N-Canucks

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 04:32 PM

Bobby Orr then Lidstrom then oranges

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#16 Amish Rake Fighter

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 04:44 PM

Orr dominated all 3 zones and all situations, fought and won the scoring title as a defenceman

/thread

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#17 Madness

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 06:40 PM

Orr dominated all 3 zones and all situations, fought and won the scoring title as a defenceman

/thread


The thread is "Bourque vs. Lidstrom".

Edited by Madness, 30 March 2012 - 06:40 PM.

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#18 uber_pwnzor

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 11:03 AM

Just recently, pundits have been beginning to tout Niklas Lidstrom as the second greatest blueliner behind Bobby Orr, in lieu of his seven Norris trophies and longevity. I actually go one step further and would tout him as better than Orr himself, but that is another subject for another time. But there is still another blueliner who deserves acknowledgement: Ray Bourque, the Bruins’ other great blueliner.

Harry Sinden, who had coached both Bourque and Orr, indicated that Bourque had been the better defensive defenseman of the two, so that ought to count heavily for Bourque.

Like Lidstrom, Bourque too had good vision and intuition, which served him well on defense, but he had many other assets: he was faster, more physical, and a better shooter. He was also more potent offensively, averaging around 80 points per season, until his last three or four seasons – during which time, he still scored around 50 points. Lidstrom, well the best offensive season he ever had was 80 points – he is nowhere near on pace for catching Bourque.

Bourque has won only five Norris trophies, but I feel he deserved a few more – especially in 1984, after a 31-goal, 93-point season, but the Norris instead went to Rod Langway who never scored more than three goals in a season. He never won the Cup until his final season, unlike Triple Gold Club member Lidstrom, but that had more to do with their teams as a whole – and timing. Lidstrom’s Red Wings were paramount in the league, while Bourque’s Bruins in their best days were stuck behind the powerhouse Oilers.

So what do you guys think? Who is the better defender, Bourque or Lidstrom?


First off, Bourque played during the 80s, so much for the "better offensive d-man".
Second: Lidström was should have won AT LEAST two Norris Trophys during the 90s.
Third: did Bourque win a Conn Smyth? No? Then there you go.

#19 Captain Aerosex

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 12:39 PM

Lidstrom, but it's very close.

Bourque's higher numbers came during a much higher scoring era. As the dead puck era came in, his numbers became more similar to Lidstrom's. He was more physical, but Lidstrom's sheer genius kinda neutralizes that, and I think the Swede is better defensively.

Then you take into consideration that Lidstrom has won a Conn Smythe, 3 more Stanley Cups, 2 more Norris trophies, and is a member of the Triple Gold Club. However, Bourque has an incredible individual legacy as the highest-scoring defence man ever, the third highest career +/-, and many other records.

I'd say in sheer ability, Lidstrom edges him out. Individual legacy, Bourque comes out on top. As an x-factor, Lidstrom has won more and at different levels. So I'm just barely giving this one to Lidstrom. 2 legendary players.
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#20 oldnews

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 02:47 PM

Bourque - better statistics while playing in a different era / Lidstrom - more successful while playing on a better team.
This is a tough one. Denis Potvin. :bigblush:

#21 vancanfan

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 03:43 PM

Tough call, both great in their era.

Paul Coffey was more exciting for me, effortless stride, wore skates too small so his feet felt like a part of the skate... hated the Oilers but was a big PC fan.


Orr #1

Then a dog fight for 2.

#22 Toews

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 04:07 PM

1. Orr
2. Harvey
3. Shore
4. Bourque
5. Lidstrom

#23 Amish Rake Fighter

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 04:08 PM

The thread is "Bourque vs. Lidstrom".


Silence !

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#24 Buddhas Hand

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 11:15 PM

Bourque

Among his numerous other records and honors are the following:

  • Retired third (second among defencemen), and is currently eighth (fourth among defencemen), in all-time games played with 1,612.
  • Retired second, and is currently fourth, in all-time assists with 1,169; this is still a record for defencemen.
  • Is eleventh in all-time points scored with 1,579.
  • Is first in all-time points scored by a defenceman with 1,579.
  • Is first in all-time defence goals scored with 410.
  • The career leader in shots on goal with 6,206, nearly one thousand ahead of the second leading shooter, Marcel Dionne.[18]
  • Led the NHL in shots in 1984, 1987, and 1995.
  • Is third in all-time cumulative plus-minus with 528, behind Larry Robinson and Orr.[3]
  • Won the Norris Trophy in 1987, 1988, 1990, 1991, and 1994.
  • Won the King Clancy Memorial Trophy in 1992.
  • Received the Lester Patrick Trophy in 2003.
  • Named a NHL First Team All-Star in 1980, 1982, 1984, 1985, 1987, 1988, 1990, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994, 1996, and 2001.
  • Named a Second Team All-Star in 1981, 1983, 1986, 1989, 1995 and 1999.
  • Became only the sixth defenceman in professional history to score 30 goals in a season (1984).
  • Became only the third defenceman in professional history to reach the 1,000 NHL points milestone (1992)
  • Is the Bruins' all-time career leader in games played (1,518), assists (1,111) and points (1,506), also ranking fourth in goals and first in assists with a single team (any position).
  • Registered his 1,528th point Oct. 25, 2000, vs. Nashville, passing Paul Coffey as the NHL's all-time leader among defencemen.
  • Registered his 1,137th assist Dec. 21, 2000, vs. L.A. Kings, passing Coffey for second place on the NHL's all-time assists list and first among defencemen.
  • Named to play in the All-Star Game for the 19th consecutive season, passing Wayne Gretzky for the league record, 2001; Bourque also appeared in the All-Star Game in every season that it was held during his career (there was no game in 1987 or 1995).
  • Was named the Most Valuable Player of the All-Star Game in 1996.
  • Is third all-time in playoff assists and tenth all-time in playoff points.
  • In 1998, three years before the end of his career, he was ranked number 14 on The Hockey News' list of the one hundred greatest hockey players of all time. He was the highest-ranking player who had not yet won a Stanley Cup, the next highest being No. 38-ranked Dionne.[19]
  • Stanley Cup champion — 2001.


wow , when you put t like that !

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#25 shimy1

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 02:28 AM

Well that depends on the type of apple.


Question:

Which bear is best?

#26 VanNuck

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 05:52 PM

I'd go with Lidstrom for an all around defensemen and Bourque as the offensive defenseman. You also gotta realize when Bourque put up his big numbers was while the league average for goals was much higher than it today for Lidstrom.


Good arguement right there, but I got to pause you. Siden described him as one of the best defensive defensemen of his time. Plus, he was still offensively strong in the dead-puck era 90s.

#27 VanNuck

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 05:56 PM

Lidstrom, but it's very close.

Bourque's higher numbers came during a much higher scoring era. As the dead puck era came in, his numbers became more similar to Lidstrom's. He was more physical, but Lidstrom's sheer genius kinda neutralizes that, and I think the Swede is better defensively.

Then you take into consideration that Lidstrom has won a Conn Smythe, 3 more Stanley Cups, 2 more Norris trophies, and is a member of the Triple Gold Club. However, Bourque has an incredible individual legacy as the highest-scoring defence man ever, the third highest career +/-, and many other records.

I'd say in sheer ability, Lidstrom edges him out. Individual legacy, Bourque comes out on top. As an x-factor, Lidstrom has won more and at different levels. So I'm just barely giving this one to Lidstrom. 2 legendary players.


Lidstrom's hockey IQ made me compare him to Gretzky and call him a better blueliner than Orr. Never saw much of Bourque in his best days, as he played in Boston, but Bourque has a similar IQ, but with better physical features.Bourque never won the Conn Smythe, but that's because he never won the Cup, until his final year. Had he won in 1990, he very well might have won the Conn Smythe too.

#28 Toews

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 09:06 PM

I hate to pull this thread off track but where would you guys place Eddie Shore? Shore played for the defenseman and won 4 Harts (That's right 4 freaking Harts) in the 30s. Now before you dismiss it saying "lolol 30s thats like so long ago", compare it to Hart trophy now. I personally value 4 Harts well above the awards that Lidstrom one.

What is truly even more remarkable is that if you attempt to make a list of top 10 all time defenseman, more than half will end up being Bruins or Habs. Pretty amazing imo.

Edited by Toews, 10 April 2012 - 09:06 PM.





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