Jump to content

Welcome to canucks.com Vancouver Canucks homepage

Photo

[Speculation] Cox: Becoming difficult to imagine a scenario in which Kessel remains a Leaf.


  • Please log in to reply
112 replies to this topic

#61 Coconuts

Coconuts

    Canucks First-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,041 posts
  • Joined: 06-July 09

Posted 28 January 2013 - 11:34 PM

Given what Toronto gave up to get him I can't imagine them trading him away unless he makes it clear to management he's got no interest signing in Toronto once his contract expires.
  • 0

Posted Image

Posted ImagePosted Image


#62 Mookie Wilson

Mookie Wilson

    Canucks Regular

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,013 posts
  • Joined: 13-January 09

Posted 28 January 2013 - 11:35 PM

Given what Toronto gave up to get him I can't imagine them trading him away unless he makes it clear to management he's got no interest signing in Toronto once his contract expires.


It was Burke who made that trade, not Nonis. Nonis has no stake in those lost picks; I don't think he'd consider it relevant. It's a sunk cost.
  • 1

#63 Coconuts

Coconuts

    Canucks First-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,041 posts
  • Joined: 06-July 09

Posted 28 January 2013 - 11:49 PM

It was Burke who made that trade, not Nonis. Nonis has no stake in those lost picks; I don't think he'd consider it relevant. It's a sunk cost.

True, true. What do you think Toronto would want for him?

I wouldn't want him in Vancouver, as we're going to have to shed salary and sign guys as it is.
  • 0

Posted Image

Posted ImagePosted Image


#64 Mookie Wilson

Mookie Wilson

    Canucks Regular

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,013 posts
  • Joined: 13-January 09

Posted 29 January 2013 - 12:21 AM

True, true. What do you think Toronto would want for him?

I wouldn't want him in Vancouver, as we're going to have to shed salary and sign guys as it is.


He's only 25 and has had 4 consecutive 30-goal seasons. And he's put up good numbers playing alongside non-elite players in Toronto.

On the other hand, he's fairly criticized as one-dimensional, and will be a UFA after next season.

But dependable goal scorers are hard to acquire. If he's traded by this summer, I reckon he's worth at least a top prospect and 1st round draft choice.

EDIT: a top prospect and 1st round pick is roughly equal to what the Leafs gave up for Kessel at the time of the trade. Problem is they then lost a boatload of games and the picks they gave up turned into Seguin and Hamilton.

Edited by Mookie Wilson, 29 January 2013 - 12:42 AM.

  • 0

#65 Teemu Selšnne

Teemu Selšnne

    Canucks Franchise Player

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,199 posts
  • Joined: 06-July 06

Posted 29 January 2013 - 12:27 AM

He's only 25 and has had 4 consecutive 30-goal seasons. And he's put up good numbers playing alongside non-elite players in Toronto.

On the other hand, he's fairly criticized as one-dimensional, and will be a UFA after next season.

But dependable goal scorers are hard to acquire. If he's traded by this summer, I reckon he's worth at least a top prospect and 1st round draft choice.


If he had a reliable defense and goalie, it wouldn't matter as much if he was one-dimensional. It would matter, but he wouldn't need to be nearly as sheltered with Bieksa, Hamhuis, Edler, Tanev and Schneider or Luongo standing tall behind him compared to Scrivens or Reimer.. On the Canucks he would also face less first pairings, as the Sedins would continue to get all the attention..

Not saying Vancouver has the right pieces, but if they did..

He could also run the 2nd PP...

Booth - Kessel - Kassian/Burrows
  • 0

#66 oldnews

oldnews

    Canucks Franchise Player

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 14,274 posts
  • Joined: 30-March 11

Posted 29 January 2013 - 01:09 AM

I wonder if Boston would give up either Seguin or Hamilton for Kessel. I seriously doubt it. I wouldn't.

Not sure why Philly would have any interest whatsoever in Kessel - the last thing they need is another right wing, let alone a one way wonder who'll make life harder for Bryzgalov.

If I were Toronto I'd give Jay Feaster a call - he may be their best bet haha.
  • 0

#67 Coconuts

Coconuts

    Canucks First-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,041 posts
  • Joined: 06-July 09

Posted 29 January 2013 - 01:24 AM

He's only 25 and has had 4 consecutive 30-goal seasons. And he's put up good numbers playing alongside non-elite players in Toronto.

On the other hand, he's fairly criticized as one-dimensional, and will be a UFA after next season.

But dependable goal scorers are hard to acquire. If he's traded by this summer, I reckon he's worth at least a top prospect and 1st round draft choice.

EDIT: a top prospect and 1st round pick is roughly equal to what the Leafs gave up for Kessel at the time of the trade. Problem is they then lost a boatload of games and the picks they gave up turned into Seguin and Hamilton.


Fair points. I wonder though, is Nonis willing to get rid off his young scoring winger and commit to a true rebuild? Unlike Burke, who seemed be trying to just get them in to the playoffs, Nonis might do just that.

Where do you think he would end up? Toronto would likely try to ship him out West.
  • 0

Posted Image

Posted ImagePosted Image


#68 Kassian

Kassian

    Canucks Prospect

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,328 posts
  • Joined: 25-April 11

Posted 29 January 2013 - 01:55 AM

If Kessel doesn't get it together;

To TOR:
Hansen
Corrado
Luongo

To VAN:
Kessel
Holzer

The sedins would finally have a true sniper, im sure gillis at least will inquire.
  • 0

Posted Image


#69 D-Money

D-Money

    Canucks Franchise Player

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 12,935 posts
  • Joined: 14-February 06

Posted 29 January 2013 - 10:41 AM

I wonder if Boston would give up either Seguin or Hamilton for Kessel.††I seriously doubt it.††I wouldn't.

Not sure why Philly would have any interest whatsoever in Kessel - the last thing they need is another right wing, let alone a one way wonder who'll make life harder for Bryzgalov.

If I were Toronto I'd give Jay Feaster a call - he may be their best bet haha.


Kessel at least would give Calgary another winger who can put the puck in the net regardless of who is at center.

Man, how good would Toronto look going forward had they not made that Kessel trade? It couldn't have gone worse for them, with both Seguin and Hamilton looking even better than the players picked ahead of them.

I actually think Kessel would be a great fit in Vancouver, but I don't think we have the assets to get him. Like I said, if TO trades Phil, it's a full-on rebuild, so they will only want top pick, prospects, and young studs in return. It would take something like Guance + Corrado (+?) to get it done, and we are too thin at quality youth to make a trade like that.

But I could see a young team with a ton of assets, who seem to be ahead of schedule on the rebuild and want to solidify themselves to compete now. Ottawa would be an obvious candidate, but of course since it's the Leafs that will never happen.

Islanders? Predators? If they could somehow convince Heatley to go to TO, the Wild would jump at it (to not only improve their roster but help their cap situation for next year), but no way does Dany agree to that.
  • 0
Posted Image

#70 WHL rocks

WHL rocks

    Canucks First-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,615 posts
  • Joined: 09-May 10

Posted 29 January 2013 - 11:42 AM

Why would Calgary trade for Kessel? The chance of Kessel signing an extension with the Flames would be zero.

I think Nonis should trade him in the off season or even at the upcoming trade deadline. Kessel will leave as UFA so TO might as well get what they could for him. Plus it would put the Kessel trade in the rear view.
  • 0

#71 elvis15

elvis15

    Canucks Hall-of-Famer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 21,158 posts
  • Joined: 27-February 07

Posted 29 January 2013 - 02:22 PM

If Kessel doesn't get it together;

To TOR:
Hansen
Corrado
Luongo

To VAN:
Kessel
Holzer

The sedins would finally have a true sniper, im sure gillis at least will inquire.

I say no. Holzer is a decent prospect but not as exciting for us as Corrado could be. Lu and Hansen for Kessel? The Leafs would love that as a return if they felt they couldn't keep Kessel.

I liked Kessel when he was with Boston, I don't even mind him with Toronto. He has his faults for sure, but can definitely score, but I wouldn't want to pay him much more if any than what his current deal is because of his faults. For that reason alone I don't think he's a good return.
  • 0

c3c9e9.pnganimalhousesig.jpg

Tanev is going to EDM. I can put my life savings down on it

 


#72 ConnorFutureGM

ConnorFutureGM

    Comets Regular

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 327 posts
  • Joined: 05-March 11

Posted 29 January 2013 - 08:26 PM

Luongo FOR Kessel straight up.

All star for all star

Problem child for problem child
  • 0

#73 Mookie Wilson

Mookie Wilson

    Canucks Regular

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,013 posts
  • Joined: 13-January 09

Posted 29 January 2013 - 08:33 PM

Luongo FOR Kessel straight up.

All star for all star

Problem child for problem child


I'd take that.

Same cap hit too.

EDIT: we'd need one of their goalies though.

Edited by Mookie Wilson, 29 January 2013 - 08:35 PM.

  • 0

#74 Pears

Pears

    Canucks All-Star

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 16,344 posts
  • Joined: 14-November 11

Posted 29 January 2013 - 10:19 PM

Luongo FOR Kessel straight up.

All star for all star

Problem child for problem child

Fits each teams needs. Good deal.
  • 0

In my eyes drouin is overrated he can score in the qmjhl but did nothing in last two gold medal games that canada lost. Fox will be better pro than him talk to me in five yrs

Gaudreau has one NHL goal whereas all your "prized" prospects have none.

   ryan kesler is going to the chicago blackhawks ...       quote me on it


#75 MoneypuckOverlord

MoneypuckOverlord

    Canucks First-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,437 posts
  • Joined: 24-September 09

Posted 29 January 2013 - 10:25 PM

Luongo FOR Kessel straight up.

All star for all star

Problem child for problem child


I will take this too. Problem is LUongo willing to go to Toronto, as we recently heard through twitter that he didn't want to go to Toronto. But this trade will only be done, in the off season.
  • 0

Players Nikolaj Ehlers have been compared too by the fan base of the Vancouver Canucks.

 

1 Pavel Bure

2 Markus Naslund

3 Nathan Mackkinon

4 Jonathan Drouin.

5 Jonathan Tavares

 

http://bleacherrepor...d-top-prospects

combine results.  Ehlers 5'11 162 lbs of solid rock.  


#76 Tortorella's Rant

Tortorella's Rant

    Canucks First-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,207 posts
  • Joined: 11-April 12

Posted 29 January 2013 - 10:31 PM

What a disaster. They're going to get an even lesser return than what they paid to get him in the first place. NOT a good way to 'build' a team.
  • 0
Posted Image

#77 oldnews

oldnews

    Canucks Franchise Player

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 14,274 posts
  • Joined: 30-March 11

Posted 29 January 2013 - 11:17 PM

Luongo FOR Kessel straight up.

All star for all star

Problem child for problem child


Yeah, right - and then Kessel for Eberle straight up - just what the Oilers need.
Otherwise, no thanks.
  • 0

#78 Mookie Wilson

Mookie Wilson

    Canucks Regular

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,013 posts
  • Joined: 13-January 09

Posted 29 January 2013 - 11:38 PM

I will take this too. Problem is LUongo willing to go to Toronto, as we recently heard through twitter that he didn't want to go to Toronto. But this trade will only be done, in the off season.


Good job not posting that in the Luongo news thread.
  • 0

#79 D-Money

D-Money

    Canucks Franchise Player

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 12,935 posts
  • Joined: 14-February 06

Posted 30 January 2013 - 08:46 AM

Again I say: If Kessel gets traded, the Leafs will have zero interest in Luongo. At that point, it will be full-on rebuild for the Leafs.

I don't think they are going that route yet. If they were, they wouldn't have committed big money to a guy who has only put up the points to earn it when he plays with Kessel.
  • 0
Posted Image

#80 Hobble

Hobble

    Canucks All-Star

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 15,662 posts
  • Joined: 27-June 07

Posted 30 January 2013 - 10:09 AM

No way they get a return equivalent of Seguin and Hamilton.
  • 1

#81 D-Money

D-Money

    Canucks Franchise Player

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 12,935 posts
  • Joined: 14-February 06

Posted 30 January 2013 - 10:53 AM

If I'm Nonis, I see 2 options. I either get my team a goalie now, and compete now, so hopefully Kessel will re-sign.

Or, I trade both Kessel and Phaneuf, and tank this short season. There are three reasons this can pay off:

1) High picks this year in a DEEP draft, shot at MacKinnon or Jones, plus...
2) Bevy of decent young players and picks in return for Kessel and Phaneuf, plus...
3) Lots of cap room with a ton of UFA's and less league-wide cap room to sign them (s/b some bargains)

In this way, Nonis can accomplish more for the long-term good of the franchise in 6 months than Burke did in his whole term.
  • 0
Posted Image

#82 Ossi Vaananen

Ossi Vaananen

    Canucks Third-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,878 posts
  • Joined: 25-April 12

Posted 30 January 2013 - 11:13 AM

Wow Toronto is a mess. Where are all you Burke butt buddies now? The organization which he has constructed the last 4 years has accomplished nothing and is looking at losing the All-star they paid their future for.

So Kessel, after receiving criticism for not scoring 5 games in is now looking like he could be dealt ... the guy they paid Seguin and Hamilton for. If he's not dealt he might not re-sign next year, meaning they get nothing for him. Right now 2/3 of their highest paid forwards are Lupul and Grabovski, both making over 5.2m. Even if they attempt a rebuild I can't see either of these contracts being moved for that kind of cap hit.

So the best they could do is possibly deal Kessel for a lesser return than what they paid for him, then wait out the contracts of Grabovski and Lupul to expire, giving them cap space to sign some FAs which almost always fail in the Toronto market (think Blake, Connolly), and once all that is done THEN they can start tanking for a rebuild. I love the mess that is the Toronto organization, as it blatantly shows you cannot run a business with loud mouth truculence.
  • 0

2d7ye0p.jpg

 

Credit to -Vintage Canuck-


#83 sampy

sampy

    Canucks Regular

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,052 posts
  • Joined: 05-May 07

Posted 30 January 2013 - 11:31 AM

If I'm Nonis, I see 2 options. I either get my team a goalie now, and compete now, so hopefully Kessel will re-sign.

Or, I trade both Kessel and Phaneuf, and tank this short season. There are three reasons this can pay off:

1) High picks this year in a DEEP draft, shot at MacKinnon or Jones, plus...
2) Bevy of decent young players and picks in return for Kessel and Phaneuf, plus...
3) Lots of cap room with a ton of UFA's and less league-wide cap room to sign them (s/b some bargains)

In this way, Nonis can accomplish more for the long-term good of the franchise in 6 months than Burke did in his whole term.


The draft isn't the same. If you tank the season there is no guaranteed lottery pick anymore. In other words, what the Oilers did won't likely ever happen again.

Like Detroit GM Holland said 'if you make the playoffs, you have a chance'. The Leafs are not far off competing for a bottom spot. IMO a Lu trade would push them in.

Lu, Raymond, Sauve, Ebbett, 2nd
For
Kessel, Bozak

Edited by sampy, 30 January 2013 - 11:31 AM.

  • 0

#84 D-Money

D-Money

    Canucks Franchise Player

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 12,935 posts
  • Joined: 14-February 06

Posted 30 January 2013 - 11:34 AM

If Nonis clears enough cap room, he'll be one of the only GMs in the league with enough cap room (and budget) to sign both Getzlaf and Perry at full market value. Most teams will have trouble getting under the falling cap. And a lot of small market teams will be taking advantage of the lower cap floor. So this may be one of the only years where free agent supply exceeds demand.

Toronto has 16 million of cap room now. Clearing Kessel and Phaneuf's contracts gives them room to do pretty much whatever they want. This will definetly be a unique opportunity, should they take advantage of it.
  • 0
Posted Image

#85 D-Money

D-Money

    Canucks Franchise Player

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 12,935 posts
  • Joined: 14-February 06

Posted 30 January 2013 - 11:44 AM

The draft isn't the same. If you tank the season there is no guaranteed lottery pick anymore. In other words, what the Oilers did won't likely ever happen again.

Like Detroit GM Holland said 'if you make the playoffs, you have a chance'. The Leafs are not far off competing for a bottom spot. IMO a Lu trade would push them in.

Lu, Raymond, Sauve, Ebbett, 2nd
For
Kessel, Bozak


Think about what you're suggesting. Toronto wants to go for the playoffs, acquires Luongo, and...trades away their franchise scorer and their top 2-way center?

How does that improve their team overall? How is that anything but a sideways move, at best? All it does is make them an older and more boring non-playoff team.
  • 0
Posted Image

#86 Pears

Pears

    Canucks All-Star

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 16,344 posts
  • Joined: 14-November 11

Posted 30 January 2013 - 12:38 PM

If I'm Nonis, I see 2 options. I either get my team a goalie now, and compete now, so hopefully Kessel will re-sign.

Or, I trade both Kessel and Phaneuf, and tank this short season. There are three reasons this can pay off:

1) High picks this year in a DEEP draft, shot at MacKinnon or Jones, plus...
2) Bevy of decent young players and picks in return for Kessel and Phaneuf, plus...
3) Lots of cap room with a ton of UFA's and less league-wide cap room to sign them (s/b some bargains)

In this way, Nonis can accomplish more for the long-term good of the franchise in 6 months than Burke did in his whole term.

Kessel for Luongo and Raymond
Phaneuf for O'Reilly and a 1st?
  • 0

In my eyes drouin is overrated he can score in the qmjhl but did nothing in last two gold medal games that canada lost. Fox will be better pro than him talk to me in five yrs

Gaudreau has one NHL goal whereas all your "prized" prospects have none.

   ryan kesler is going to the chicago blackhawks ...       quote me on it


#87 sampy

sampy

    Canucks Regular

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,052 posts
  • Joined: 05-May 07

Posted 30 January 2013 - 12:40 PM

Think about what you're suggesting. Toronto wants to go for the playoffs, acquires Luongo, and...trades away their franchise scorer and their top 2-way center?

How does that improve their team overall? How is that anything but a sideways move, at best? All it does is make them an older and more boring non-playoff team.


I see what you are saying but I think the trade makes the Leafs better. Substantially better in goal, Raymond is having a bounce back year and could help in the goals department, a mid tier prospect, role player, and a high pick.
But yeah I agree with you, doesn't help them out too much long term.
  • 0

#88 elvis15

elvis15

    Canucks Hall-of-Famer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 21,158 posts
  • Joined: 27-February 07

Posted 30 January 2013 - 02:42 PM

If Nonis clears enough cap room, he'll be one of the only GMs in the league with enough cap room (and budget) to sign both Getzlaf and Perry at full market value. Most teams will have trouble getting under the falling cap. And a lot of small market teams will be taking advantage of the lower cap floor. So this may be one of the only years where free agent supply exceeds demand.

Toronto has 16 million of cap room now. Clearing Kessel and Phaneuf's contracts gives them room to do pretty much whatever they want. This will definetly be a unique opportunity, should they take advantage of it.

I'd generally agree, apart from your earlier point about needing to tank. If they move enough of their top pieces, they'll lose games by default, nevermind having to try and do so.

Granted that assumes it's not addition by subtraction when you move Kessel and Phaneuf, but it's something I'd at least suggest to the ownership - if you think you have a chance at Perry and Getzlaf in the summer as UFAs.
  • 0

c3c9e9.pnganimalhousesig.jpg

Tanev is going to EDM. I can put my life savings down on it

 


#89 ManUtd

ManUtd

    Canucks Regular

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,689 posts
  • Joined: 21-July 10

Posted 30 January 2013 - 03:15 PM

Kessel for Luongo and Raymond
Phaneuf for O'Reilly and a 1st?


Avs already gave up their first last year. Hard to believe they would do so again in a much deeper draft. Also Phaneuf's contract would mess up their salary structure significantly more than what O'Reilly is asking for. While Phaneuf would finally give them a legit top pairing guy to play with Johnson he is overpaid and if they seem to be refusing to give O'Reilly between 3 and 4 why on earth would they be alright paying 6.5 for Phaneuf? In the end a top 6 center who will likely become a selke candidate for years to come and a first in a very deep draft is a huge overpayment for Phaneuf who will most likely walk when his contract ends next year.
  • 0

rsz_avs.jpg


#90 D-Money

D-Money

    Canucks Franchise Player

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 12,935 posts
  • Joined: 14-February 06

Posted 30 January 2013 - 03:22 PM

Avs already gave up their first last year. Hard to believe they would do so again in a much deeper draft. Also Phaneuf's contract would mess up their salary structure significantly more than what O'Reilly is asking for. While Phaneuf would finally give them a legit top pairing guy to play with Johnson he is overpaid and if they seem to be refusing to give O'Reilly between 3 and 4 why on earth would they be alright paying 6.5 for Phaneuf? In the end a top 6 center who will likely become a selke candidate for years to come and a first in a very deep draft is a huge overpayment for Phaneuf who will most likely walk when his contract ends next year.


Agreed.

However, Colorado would definitely consider offering Stastny and a pick/prospect. Salaries would be a wash, and opens up a top-6 spot for O'Reilly (thus justifying the type of salary he is looking for).
  • 0
Posted Image




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users

Canucks.com is the official Web site of The Vancouver Canucks. The Vancouver Canucks and Canucks.com are trademarks of The Vancouver Canucks Limited Partnership.  NHL and the word mark and image of the Stanley Cup are registered trademarks and the NHL Shield and NHL Conference logos are trademarks of the National Hockey League. All NHL logos and marks and NHL team logos and marks as well as all other proprietary materials depicted herein are the property of the NHL and the respective NHL teams and may not be reproduced without the prior written consent of NHL Enterprises, L.P.  Copyright © 2009 The Vancouver Canucks Limited Partnership and the National Hockey League.  All Rights Reserved.