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Ok Vigneault......lets talk.


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#31 Baggins

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 01:01 AM

May I be so bold as to say to you coach, considering your track record with younger players of recent, to offer you some advice.

Please for the love of Gawd don't f#@k-up Corrado's confidence. Don't sit him, don't play head games with him. Let him play. He looks good.

Please!!

I mean it must be tempting, after making Kassian a complete basket-case of late, for you to beak off non-sensically about some shortcomings but, it would behoove you to zip it and let the kid play. No Hodgsonesque questioning of his committment to play, no Grabneresque......oh bloody hell, you get it.

#26- Petri Skriko's old number, Great Tursas Beard!!! Love it!!

Peace.


AV doesn't "hate prospects" he just likes to win more than likes coddling them.

if you pull your head out of your butt you'll see AV's treatment of prospects is quite simple: play well both directions and you'll get ice time. This isn't something new. He did it with Burrows, Kesler, Hansen and Raymond and they're all better for it. Hansen and Raymond are prime examples of AV. Moved down lines and benched for poor defensive play in their early years and now both are reliable penalty killers and play a solid two way game. It's how you win games and AV likes to win. Look no further than Tanev on the D side of it. The notion he hates prospects is a complete fallacy.
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#32 BedBeats™2.0

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 01:35 AM

AV doesn't "hate prospects" he just likes to win more than likes coddling them.

if you pull your head out of your butt you'll see AV's treatment of prospects is quite simple: play well both directions and you'll get ice time. This isn't something new. He did it with Burrows, Kesler, Hansen and Raymond and they're all better for it. Hansen and Raymond are prime examples of AV. Moved down lines and benched for poor defensive play in their early years and now both are reliable penalty killers and play a solid two way game. It's how you win games and AV likes to win. Look no further than Tanev on the D side of it. The notion he hates prospects is a complete fallacy.


Im still wondering why this myth has ever sustained traction. Most of this core were very young when he took over. That alone should just cease that fallacy.

Even further, AV has said over and over and over again in the media for years, that is how the team runs.

Execute, stick to your role and you get ice time.

He has been helped by the organization here and in the minors with Gilman and Arnie hand picking they guys that are most ready to fill in.

For me, Gordon and Corrado have just been a major suprise.

To see them hold their own, even if just for a short while, is a great testament about well this team is run. Both those players bought in, and shined.

Sorry AV whiners, when 2 green kids with talent are called up and are noticable for positive reasons, it is partially due to coaching.

AV/MG (i have a theory that this was probably Ryan Walter's idea, and some other teams do the same.) have developed the tradition of taking the prospects in groups, and have them with the team during the playoffs.

It be cool if people would just widen their scope a bit, do a little research and pay closer attention and not be seduced by the groupthink of misinformation that runs rampant with the online fanbase.
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#33 PistolPete13

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 01:48 AM

At the end of the day, coaches are coaching for their jobs. This little factoid means that they play the players they feel will give them the best chance to win. Veterans such as bieksa and edler have proven to Av over years of service that they can get the job done. Some rookie who gives certain fans a hard on because he's their new shiny toy does not mean that Av will play them.

THIS IS THE NHL! when will some fans realize this? We're a rich team. If rookies dont produce, we sign players that will. If rookies come in and develop, and they play well, then yes, they will become a part of this team.

Tanev is young and was playing over our top Dman because he was reliable. Corrado had the same treatment tonight. He played well and was rewarded. Coaches in the NHL dont have time for nerves unless they're out of the playoffs (such as Forsberg in Nashville). I understand that some fans may not feel this way, but we are a top tier organization in the NHL and rookies need to earn their keep if they want to stay with the big club, and if they have trouble with that, they can go play with a lesser organization (like umberger in Columbus, Hodgson in Buffalo and grabner in New York). But please, chill out. Veterans that have proven they can get the job done for many years are given more room for error than some rookie who the coach hardly knows. Why is this so hard to understand for some people?


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#34 PistolPete13

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 01:49 AM

At lost some common sense. Nice post
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#35 CHIPS

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 01:50 AM

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#36 CanucksJay

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 07:51 AM

At the end of the day, coaches are coaching for their jobs. This little factoid means that they play the players they feel will give them the best chance to win. Veterans such as bieksa and edler have proven to Av over years of service that they can get the job done. Some rookie who gives certain fans a hard on because he's their new shiny toy does not mean that Av will play them.

THIS IS THE NHL! when will some fans realize this? We're a rich team. If rookies dont produce, we sign players that will. If rookies come in and develop, and they play well, then yes, they will become a part of this team.

Tanev is young and was playing over our top Dman because he was reliable. Corrado had the same treatment tonight. He played well and was rewarded. Coaches in the NHL dont have time for nerves unless they're out of the playoffs (such as Forsberg in Nashville). I understand that some fans may not feel this way, but we are a top tier organization in the NHL and rookies need to earn their keep if they want to stay with the big club, and if they have trouble with that, they can go play with a lesser organization (like umberger in Columbus, Hodgson in Buffalo and grabner in New York). But please, chill out. Veterans that have proven they can get the job done for many years are given more room for error than some rookie who the coach hardly knows. Why is this so hard to understand for some people?


I agree with what you are saying about AV playing players who he thinks will give him the best chance to win but I'm questioning whether he is making the right choices.
I like Bieksa (Edler not as much) but when those 2 are constantly making mistakes and AV throws them out on the ice time after time, he really ISNT giving himself the best chance to win.
He is blinded by his own biasness and so are you.
When Edler got walked around yesterday, if that was Corrado, despite the awesome game he was having, his ass would be stapled to the bench after that (esp in the 3rd)

That kind of coaching hampers development and in a sense, AV let his bias in going with vets result in perhaps playing a vet (who thinks he has a better chance to win with) over a player that is actually playing better and giving the team a better chance to win.

Now if Corrado got dangled multiple times, I can understand him being benched but it seems like AV has a super short fuse for rookies which might actually be screwing himself over from icing the best team.

I'm not saying Corrado, Tanev, Kassian, Shroeder are saviors but I do have a sneaking suspicion that they are capable of playing better with better coaching and opportunities which would help the team perform even better than they are now.

For example, Ebett over Schroeder?

What does Ebett bring over Jordan besides age?

Jordan has better hockey sense, skills, speed, just as reliable defensively, and would make a line of Kassian and Weise much better than Ebett.

Edited by CanucksJay, 23 April 2013 - 07:57 AM.

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#37 hockeyking

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 10:56 AM

I agree with what you are saying about AV playing players who he thinks will give him the best chance to win but I'm questioning whether he is making the right choices.
I like Bieksa (Edler not as much) but when those 2 are constantly making mistakes and AV throws them out on the ice time after time, he really ISNT giving himself the best chance to win.
He is blinded by his own biasness and so are you.
When Edler got walked around yesterday, if that was Corrado, despite the awesome game he was having, his ass would be stapled to the bench after that (esp in the 3rd)

That kind of coaching hampers development and in a sense, AV let his bias in going with vets result in perhaps playing a vet (who thinks he has a better chance to win with) over a player that is actually playing better and giving the team a better chance to win.

Now if Corrado got dangled multiple times, I can understand him being benched but it seems like AV has a super short fuse for rookies which might actually be screwing himself over from icing the best team.

I'm not saying Corrado, Tanev, Kassian, Shroeder are saviors but I do have a sneaking suspicion that they are capable of playing better with better coaching and opportunities which would help the team perform even better than they are now.

For example, Ebett over Schroeder?

What does Ebett bring over Jordan besides age?

Jordan has better hockey sense, skills, speed, just as reliable defensively, and would make a line of Kassian and Weise much better than Ebett.

edler and Bieksa are proven top-4 defensemen and have already earned his trust while Corrodo hasn't by his performance last night I believe he has stared off on the right foot. Ebett is more defensively reliable than jordan honestly I think that is the only reason he ever gets a contract because he is defensively reliable.
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#38 Nordiques_fan

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 11:05 AM

Why do players fail? MAYBE BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT AS GOOD AS ORIGINALLY THOUGHT?


You beat me to it. That's always what I thought.Why isn't Shirokov playing 1st line on some NHL team right now? Maybe because he's not good enough, right? Or is it AV's fault?This guy is the best coach we've ever had, he's the best with rookies, has had quite an impact on many players in this team, including the Sedins, and he will bring us a Cup this year. True.
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#39 RyanKeslord17

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 12:31 PM

Is that why Edler and Bieksa take their ice times for granted? Because they earned it when they were younger but now that they are vets, they can make mistakes and continue to be thrown out on the ice?

Sorry for the sarcasm.
Just pointing out that maybe he should treat people equally or it might be considered favoritism or perhaps "ageism".

When younger players get benched for every little mistake and then see their vets make tons of glaring mistakes yet still being given ice time might actually hamper their development and result in negative feelings toward the organization.

Gillis has always said the best players will play. Now what kind of a message would it send it he says that and if a rookie is playing better than a vet but gets benched as soon as he makes a mistake?


Good point indeed, but that's the way our coach operates, like it or not. And, to be fair, Edler and Bieksa are vets on this team, and have been apart of our d core for a while now. Showing faith and confidence in them is what AV always wants to do. They earned their ice time in earlier years and have shown what they can do..seniority helps in this case. AV goes by this, some coaches don't.
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#40 CanucksJay

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 12:38 PM

Good point indeed, but that's the way our coach operates, like it or not. And, to be fair, Edler and Bieksa are vets on this team, and have been apart of our d core for a while now. Showing faith and confidence in them is what AV always wants to do. They earned their ice time in earlier years and have shown what they can do..seniority helps in this case. AV goes by this, some coaches don't.


Yeah I agree with what you say but it sends the wrong message to the players when they say things like the best players will play but don't act by it.
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#41 BedBeats™2.0

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 01:40 PM

I agree with what you are saying about AV playing players who he thinks will give him the best chance to win but I'm questioning whether he is making the right choices.


26-13-7.

NW Division Champion. 5 years in a row now.

Playoff bound.

I like winning. Its fun. and enjoyable as a fan.

Edited by BedBeats™2.0, 23 April 2013 - 01:40 PM.

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#42 Monty

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 01:51 PM

I think out of all the repetitive threads, I let out the biggest sigh when I see an AV thread pop up.
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#43 CanucksJay

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 02:00 PM

26-13-7.

NW Division Champion. 5 years in a row now.

Playoff bound.

I like winning. Its fun. and enjoyable as a fan.


Yeah winning is fun. but it would be even more fun if we won the cup.
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#44 Monty

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 02:01 PM

Yeah winning is fun. but it would be even more fun if we won the cup.


So the Aquilini's should fire AV and hire what available Stanley Cup winning coach? Mike Keenan?
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#45 BedBeats™2.0

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 02:05 PM

So the Aquilini's should fire AV and hire what available Stanley Cup winning coach? Mike Keenan?


They should hire any available coach in the recent past who has been fired for failure.

Better yet, pluck some coach who has yet to ever come up the ranks as an assistant in NHL, but is winning in the AHL.

;)
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#46 CanucksJay

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 02:12 PM

actually Aqulini wouldn't be doing the hiring...
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#47 BedBeats™2.0

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 02:17 PM

Yeah winning is fun. but it would be even more fun if we won the cup.


Yessiree.
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#48 Lidstrom

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 02:22 PM

From what I've seen, AV has always played the best players that give us a chance to win. Just because a player is younger or has more potential doesn't mean they deserve more ice-time. It is what he has preached since day 1. Its not AV's job to develop young players. What did we spend millions of dollars on player development on? His job is to win and with 5 straight NW titles, he's probably the best coach we have ever had. I'm grateful he is still our coach.

I hope the fans wanting him fired have an average age of 14, which would save some credibility of Canuck fans in my eyes.
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#49 DIBdaQUIB

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 02:58 PM

His track record of young players:

Schneider
Burrows
Kesler
Tanev
Hansen
Raymond

To a lesser extent (but have seen their emergence under AV):
Sedins
Bieksa

Not sure how you can pin Kassian on AV (making him a basket-case is a joke) he is a professional hockey player if he can't stand his coaches criticism he shouldn't be playing (my guess is he can and he will be better for it). You don't just throw a player on the first line because of his potential... he has to earn it... if you people had your way Minny would have ran away with the division and we would be fighting for a playoff spot right now.


I agree for the most part and I think Kassian understands he has to play consistently and earn his ice time.

What bothers me how AV appears so reluctant to throw the kid a bone. At last night's presser, he gushed all over COrrado's play (deservedly so) but when asked about Kass (who scored the game winning goal playing against Duncan Keith) his only comment was "he pplayed alright", accompanied with a look of pain on his face for having to even say that.

Young players lack maturity and confidence. Kass is a big kid who will be more effective the more he knows he is trusted and appreciated. It's just the way young guys are.

Would it really have killed AV to say "Kass showed some good stuff tonight and scored a big goal for us. We'll need him to step up in teh playoffs"? Something like that could really motivate a young kid like Kass.
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#50 CanucksJay

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 03:01 PM

From what I've seen, AV has always played the best players that give us a chance to win. Just because a player is younger or has more potential doesn't mean they deserve more ice-time. It is what he has preached since day 1. Its not AV's job to develop young players. What did we spend millions of dollars on player development on? His job is to win and with 5 straight NW titles, he's probably the best coach we have ever had. I'm grateful he is still our coach.

I hope the fans wanting him fired have an average age of 14, which would save some credibility of Canuck fans in my eyes.


Actually this is the problem... even some of the AV supporters understand that in AV's world, the best players don't play. The younger players are on a shorter leash and are benched much sooner then vets who have "earned" their spot.

That's why you see players being treated differently within the same team like Edler and Bieksa vs a youngin like Tanev, Kassian or Shroeder.

So that in a sense means he's not practicing what he is preaching.

What he should then say is, if you are young, "I will be extra hard on you until I feel you "get it" and then I will give you more margin for errors like how I treat the vets.

Don't say the best players will play when you keep throwing out vets on the ice when they are making mistakes.
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#51 CanucksJay

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 03:03 PM

I agree for the most part and I think Kassian understands he has to play consistently and earn his ice time.

What bothers me how AV appears so reluctant to throw the kid a bone. At last night's presser, he gushed all over COrrado's play (deservedly so) but when asked about Kass (who scored the game winning goal playing against Duncan Keith) his only comment was "he pplayed alright", accompanied with a look of pain on his face for having to even say that.

Young players lack maturity and confidence. Kass is a big kid who will be more effective the more he knows he is trusted and appreciated. It's just the way young guys are.

Would it really have killed AV to say "Kass showed some good stuff tonight and scored a big goal for us. We'll need him to step up in teh playoffs"? Something like that could really motivate a young kid like Kass.


Totally agree. I said this in the other thread as well. Remember when Kassian scored that last minute goal against Edmonton and was super excited? What was AV's comment? The goal didn't mean anything?

Lol way to motivate your young guys
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#52 TheCammer

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 03:29 PM

Shirokov's failed due to Coaching and Management.

Grabner had no place here either way.

Now to get back to what I was saying before, Schneider was made in the AHL. He came into the NHL ready and poised to be a star. Nothing to do with coaching.

And the Sedins are cause of Crow. They were PPG before AV.

Hit +1 instead of quote. Didn't mean too.

Shirokov failed because he was simply lazy and not that good. Nothing to do with coaching and management.
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#53 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 04:36 PM

Hit +1 instead of quote. Didn't mean too.

Shirokov failed because he was simply lazy and not that good. Nothing to do with coaching and management.


I think he was unfairly treated in 10/11 when he came up and played well and was sent down right away, despite playing better than others.
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#54 CanucksJay

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 04:45 PM

I think he was unfairly treated in 10/11 when he came up and played well and was sent down right away, despite playing better than others.


I agree with this. Shirokov was NOT a prototypical AV player and as a result, wasn't treated fairly.

Shirikov had a certain elusiveness to him that was similar to Huselius. He had good vision and good hockey sense.

AV likes guys that pound the ice when they skate like a Kesler or Hansen. He doesn't like the shifty guys that look like they are floating lol.

Shiro should have just changed his style and put a grimace on his face as he chopped up and down the ice.
And then when he hit the red line, he should dump it in and go for a change.

This way, he would have stayed in AV's good books.
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#55 AllEyezOnMe

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 05:17 PM

I agree with what you are saying about AV playing players who he thinks will give him the best chance to win but I'm questioning whether he is making the right choices.
I like Bieksa (Edler not as much) but when those 2 are constantly making mistakes and AV throws them out on the ice time after time, he really ISNT giving himself the best chance to win.
He is blinded by his own biasness and so are you.
When Edler got walked around yesterday, if that was Corrado, despite the awesome game he was having, his ass would be stapled to the bench after that (esp in the 3rd)

That kind of coaching hampers development and in a sense, AV let his bias in going with vets result in perhaps playing a vet (who thinks he has a better chance to win with) over a player that is actually playing better and giving the team a better chance to win.

Now if Corrado got dangled multiple times, I can understand him being benched but it seems like AV has a super short fuse for rookies which might actually be screwing himself over from icing the best team.

I'm not saying Corrado, Tanev, Kassian, Shroeder are saviors but I do have a sneaking suspicion that they are capable of playing better with better coaching and opportunities which would help the team perform even better than they are now.

For example, Ebett over Schroeder?

What does Ebett bring over Jordan besides age?

Jordan has better hockey sense, skills, speed, just as reliable defensively, and would make a line of Kassian and Weise much better than Ebett.


Schroeder may be better for the regular season rather then post season. We're trying to get bigger in the lineup not smaller, and since we have a small but effective player in roy their is no need to put Schroeder in the playoffs especially because of his age and experience. Ebbett may not be a goal scorer but he has the speed,forechecking ability and hitting whereas Schroeder does not (right now). If we lack scoring in the post season then I'm all in for Schroeder centering a line with Raymond/Hansen or playing on the 4th line but right now ebbett is just fine.
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#56 canacks1970

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 06:13 PM

May I be so bold as to say to you coach, considering your track record with younger players of recent, to offer you some advice.

Please for the love of Gawd don't f#@k-up Corrado's confidence. Don't sit him, don't play head games with him. Let him play. He looks good.

Please!!

I mean it must be tempting, after making Kassian a complete basket-case of late, for you to beak off non-sensically about some shortcomings but, it would behoove you to zip it and let the kid play. No Hodgsonesque questioning of his committment to play, no Grabneresque......oh bloody hell, you get it.

#26- Petri Skriko's old number, Great Tursas Beard!!! Love it!!

Peace.




Well I guess you weren't around when Iron Mike ran the show then. So has A.V hurt Tanav's confident in any way to suggest he will treat Corrado any differently.
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#57 CanucksJay

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 07:22 PM

Schroeder may be better for the regular season rather then post season. We're trying to get bigger in the lineup not smaller, and since we have a small but effective player in roy their is no need to put Schroeder in the playoffs especially because of his age and experience. Ebbett may not be a goal scorer but he has the speed,forechecking ability and hitting whereas Schroeder does not (right now). If we lack scoring in the post season then I'm all in for Schroeder centering a line with Raymond/Hansen or playing on the 4th line but right now ebbett is just fine.


Schroeder listed as 5'8 175
Ebbett listed as 5'9 174.

I don't think size is the difference here.

They are both small.
Fair enough though if you think Ebbett has the edge defensively and thats why he plays over Schroeder.

My logic was just that while Schroeder might lack "just slightly" in defensive play over Ebbett, he is much more capable of making his linemates play better than Ebbett and instead of defending a 1 goal lead with Ebbett, Schroeder might be the one to set up Kassian or Booth to give the Canucks a 2 or 3 goal lead.
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#58 Erik Karlsson

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 07:27 PM

Schroeder listed as 5'8 175
Ebbett listed as 5'9 174.

I don't think size is the difference here.

They are both small.
Fair enough though if you think Ebbett has the edge defensively and thats why he plays over Schroeder.

My logic was just that while Schroeder might lack "just slightly" in defensive play over Ebbett, he is much more capable of making his linemates play better than Ebbett and instead of defending a 1 goal lead with Ebbett, Schroeder might be the one to set up Kassian or Booth to give the Canucks a 2 or 3 goal lead.


I agree, Ebbett might be an inch taller and a tiny bit better defensively but Schoeder's speed and offensive skills make up for that. He's also more aggressive then Ebbett imo. I'm sure he would learn a lot by watching Roy play too.
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#59 ilduce39

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 08:01 PM

I argue against the myth that Vignault isn't good for prospects whenever I can.

"Tanev"

What a basketcase. AV totally ruined that kid's career.
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T-Bone said:
remind them all of Tbone, remeber me for how I lived, not how I was banned
*sig too big

#60 6string

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 08:29 PM

did kassian even get a shift in the third period last night against chicago, he scored a power forward kinda goal by going strong to the net and postioning himself for a pass, he should of been rewarded for his heads up play....

yes there were many penalties in the third and even corrado saw pp time, but not kassian. in a 3-0 at the time the canucks had 2 power plays and often with a big lead the opposing team gets chippy and start to run at our stars ( sedins ) while killing a pp. with a comfortable lead of 3-0 you put big kass up front to keep them honest and send a frigggin message you are gonna have to answer to him!

just remember the scf in 2011 the bruins had their way with the sedins and we had no answer for that!
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