Canuck Surfer Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 There is the widely accredited concept that Detroit is the epitome of developing players? To be fair; Detroit has always had the fortune to find stars in the draft. Scouting is most certainly one of, if not the biggest factors in their long term success.Yzerman, Fedorov, Lidstrom, Datsyuk, Zetterberg... Some late round finds legit stuff of legend for their scouts. But they have also had 4 or 5 year stretches where only one, maybe two draft picks made their squad. Yeah, that they were stacked was a factor. So lets look at that, I don't see that it is fair to add development to that credit? Being stacked, players have had to seriously outplay vets to get on the squad. I suppose that is a pretty good development problem, or message? And as above, the ones who passed mustard were in fact stars. I suggest coups of modern scouting, not development. But a lot of picks and prospects ended up moving on cuz they could not pass the test. See Ville Leino. They just ended up being what they actually were; mediocre prospects! The real truth? For as long as I can remember they rounded out their team with veterans. No team has been better at signing / hanging on to or acquiring by trade veteran stars (sometimes fading elsewhere) who became remarkably productive again with reduced roles to extend their careers. Rafalski, Vyacheslav Fetisov, Bertuzzi, Shanahan, Chelios, Dallas Drake, Brett Hull, Hasek, Luc Robitaille, Fredrik Olausson, Larionov, Larry Murphy..., even role players like Cleary and Kris Draper are all examples. More recently guys like Modano and Brad Stuart. Alfredsson and Weiss in todays world are live examples of the real Detroit model! Not all worked out, see the return of Samuelsson who was brought back to push promising Nyquist for a roster spot in 2012/13. Nor has Nyquist yet developed into one of those stars.Those veterans all took roles a prospect pencilled themselves in to. In my opinion suggesting Detroit is built on player development is a bit of an overrated myth? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 Personally I think the "Detroit model" isn't as simple as "good player development". It's more about minimizing the width and depth of the valleys while maximizing the peaks in the natural growth of a team core as it starts, improves/matures and declines/ages. Ideally you have overlapping cores so that as one's peaking another's just declining. To do that you need smart management, good drafting/development, signing/retaining quality vets etc. It's not just one thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lmm Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 JR that is exactly why the Canuck have never won. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisbanks Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 the detroit model is that they have guys that know what they are doing running the team... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronalds.Kenins41 Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 Well consider this. We haven't missed the playoffs once since we have been using this model. Although we might this year cause Tort's isn't Detroit model. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sam13371337 Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 detroits overrated Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronalds.Kenins41 Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 JR that is exactly why the Canuck have never won; Management can't do anything right Got Em Right Ehrhoff Sundin Samuelson Torres Malhotra Hamhuis Garrison Lapierre Higgins Hodgson Stanton Santorelli Richardson Tanev Lack Promise Players Shinkaruk Horvat Kassian(just beginning) Gaunce Lain Jensen(just beginning) McNally Dalpe Schroeder Mistakes Ballard Booth Sturm Roy Pahlson That's just off the top of my head. Please go into any previous canucks management and find that many good finds, good signings and good trades. People over criticize gillis for his few mistakes and want him fired but trust me this guy finds way more good players compared to bad. If gillis ever gets fired you will see him land a job quickly and go onto more success elsewhere. Vancouver fans never know what they have till it's gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bookie Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 In regards to the veteran thing, Babcock talked a bit about that on the recent 24/7. He said that one of the biggest things he stresses is the older players impressing upon the rookies the importance to work as hard as possible every time they are on the ice, whether its a game or a practice or just a skate. He also said it applies to himself and the management as well, to show the veterans/star players that they are always working hard to put them in the best position to win, and they showed him jogging around the concourse. I remember it got a real LOL out of me because directly afterwards they cut to that scene of Randy Carlyle failing to operate a toaster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tragoedia Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 JR that is exactly why the Canuck have never won. To be fair though, they have only started using this model in recent years. We haven't seen the second wave fully come in yet. If Horvat makes the team next year our second wave will be looking pretty decent, with Kassian, Horvat, Lack, Tanev, Stanton, and possibly Gaunce or Jensen we don't look bad for young players. A possible young UFA might be signed this offseason as well. We also have some extra pieces that may or may not fit in next season, but still are assets of this point (of varying values). These being Shroeder, Dalpe, Welsh, Lain, Archibald, and such. None of these are high value prospects, but still have some value either to keep or add into a trade deal. The Sedins, although their offense has detoriated this season (no sign whether this is injuries, slump, lack of chemistry/ moral, just an anomaly, or indicitive of the future yet), are still producing 65-70 pts, decent first line numbers. Our lack of secondary scoring is the real killer at the moment from the second line. But the cap goes up next season and I think we will see the start of either the last portion of the Sedin era or the final portion. Whether they are superstars for 4 more years or just team leaders and offense producers remains to be seen, but this team is not done yet. Hopefully by the time they retire the team will have rebuilt as new (4 years to do that without tanking hopefully). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baka Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 Only Datsyuk and Zetterberg were steals. Outside of that nothing else was that unbelievable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ManUtd Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 Being stacked, players have had to seriously outplay vets to get on the squad. I suppose that is a pretty good development problem, or message? And as above, the ones who passed mustard were in fact stars. Mustard? Awesome. Never seen that before. Made my day. Edit: I was with you up until then but now that's all I can think about so I can't really say whether I agree with the whole thing or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klaus Daimler Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 Ehrhoff Sundin Samuelson Torres Malhotra Hamhuis Garrison Lapierre Higgins Hodgson Stanton Schroeder Santorelli Richardson Tanev Lack Promise Players Shinkaruk Horvat Kassian(just beginning) Gaunce Lain Jensen(just beginning) McNally Mistakes Ballard Booth Sturm Roy Pahlson That's just off the top of my head. Please go into any previous canucks management and find that many good finds, good signings and good trades. People over criticize gillis for his few mistakes and want him fired but trust me this guy finds way more good players compared to bad. If gillis ever gets fired you will see him land a job quickly and go onto more success elsewhere. Vancouver fans never know what they have till it's gone. Are you Jesus? I think you're Jesus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronalds.Kenins41 Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 Are you Jesus? I think you're Jesus. "Woke up and, Saw Jesus, I think I must be drunk" 38 seconds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 No real myth here that's been 'debunked' imo. Is it a myth that Detroit excels in player development? Don't think you've really made your case. Look at the players they've drafted that are on their roster. Do they add some moneyball veterans that are undervalued but come back and produce in Detroit? Apparently, and that would indicate the ability to see value where others don't necessarily - not unlike their ability to find gems late in the draft. It would also suggest a coaching staff that knows how to get the best out of players, knows how to use those players to their strengths, and a scouting staff that identifies players that are probably being under/mis-utilized. Making the playoff for a few decades in a row - many times as very high seeds - and generally picking in the bottom half of the draft for 21 straight years - while perenially managing to retool their team nevertheless - that is pretty solid evident that the Detroit model is anything but a myth. The proof is in the pudding. They've been pudding themselves in the playoffs since Tomas Tatar was born. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Surfer Posted January 24, 2014 Author Share Posted January 24, 2014 Personally I think the "Detroit model" isn't as simple as "good player development". It's more about minimizing the width and depth of the valleys while maximizing the peaks in the natural growth of a team core as it starts, improves/matures and declines/ages. Ideally you have overlapping cores so that as one's peaking another's just declining. To do that you need smart management, good drafting/development, signing/retaining quality vets etc. It's not just one thing. I agree with Chris below; JR's point is one of the shrewdest I've seen on CDC. Possibly / probably what MG was trying to accomplish (possibly 1 year late?) when he mentioned "reset"at the beginning of last off season. Some misinterpreted that as we would blow up the core. In fact we were just prioritizing setup of the next peak? And that may take till next year or 2015. JR that is exactly why the Canuck have never won. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Surfer Posted January 24, 2014 Author Share Posted January 24, 2014 No real myth here that's been 'debunked' imo. Is it a myth that Detroit excels in player development? Don't think you've really made your case. Look at the players they've drafted that are on their roster. Do they add some moneyball veterans that are undervalued but come back and produce in Detroit? Apparently, and that would indicate the ability to see value where others don't necessarily - not unlike their ability to find gems late in the draft. It would also suggest a coaching staff that knows how to get the best out of players, knows how to use those players to their strengths, and a scouting staff that identifies players that are probably being under/mis-utilized. Making the playoff for a few decades in a row - many times as very high seeds - and generally picking in the bottom half of the draft for 21 straight years - while perenially managing to retool their team nevertheless - that is pretty solid evident that the Detroit model is anything but a myth. The proof is in the pudding. They've been pudding themselves in the playoffs since Tomas Tatar was born. What are their impact players currently whom they have drafted? Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Howard, Kronwall and perhaps Franzen... Thats not crash hot, elite status of Zetterberg and Pavel already noted. Nor is their vault of picks (hailed on CDC) coming to any rescue ATM. Tatar, Abdelkader, Eaves, Nyquist, Jurco, Emmerton? Their last cup? Definitely better; add Lidstrom, Filppula, McCarty, Samuelsson, Hudler, Ericsson, Kopecky... 02'Cup winner was anchored by Yzerman, Federov and Lidstrom. But its core had Hasek, Shanahan, Robitaille, Hull and Chelios. Thats 5 hall of famers not drafted by Detroit. Sure Datsyuk had 35 points, Holmstrom 25. I'm not calling that a cup built on player development. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
etsen3 Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 Here's another one: is the so-called "Detroit model" even a "model"? It's not like they pioneered the concept of having competitive teams year in and year out rather than tanking. Every team wants to do this and has wanted to do this since the beginning of time, it's just that Detroit has been successful at it due to good drafting and acquisitions. They don't rebuild because they don't have to. It's harder for a team to do this nowadays due to the salary cap and draft format obviously, but I don't think you can call it a "model" when really it's just being good at what you do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 What are their impact players currently whom they have drafted? Come on Surfer, you haven't done your homework. 9 of their top 10 scorers are their own draft picks. Their starting goaltender is their own pick. Zetteburg Datsyuk Kronwall Franzen Tatar Abdelkader Nyquist Andersson Smith Kindl Helm Dekeyser undrafted fa Ericsson Sheahan Jurco Glendening Emmerton Lashoff Almquist Marchenko Ouellet Howard Mrazek All their own 'products'. 22 players on their roster. As for their 'vault' of prospects that you belittle, I'm going to venture to say that you aren't qualified to assess it - and probably don't have quite the idea of who the 'no names' (ironically) in their prospect pool are that their scouts, with a record that speaks for itself, do. Their playoff success speaks for itself as well. I guess you missed last year's playoffs where their failing impact players and lack of young talent merely put them in a 7th game overtime with the Hawks in the second round. Some folks around here had already pencilled in their demise midseason. I don't really see your point, or why you'd try to make one like this. Call it a 'system', 'model', approach, group, braintrust, or whatever you want - they've made it work with a consistency that any team would want to emulate. Anthony Mantha at 20th overall is the highest pick they've had since Kindl at 19th in 2005, the one time they've had a pick in the top 20 since 1991. So you can go with the Edmonton 'model' if you want Surfer, but Detroit's would be more than welcome here. Yeah, they make the most of what they have to work with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil_314 Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 Got Em Right Don't forget LUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU! Mistakes Ballard Booth well, we bought low on him for Sturm and Sammy, so it's more of a calculated gamble; the 3rd rounder's also Cassels Sturm Roy Pahlson That's just off the top of my head. Please go into any previous canucks management and find that many good finds, good signings and good trades. People over criticize gillis for his few mistakes and want him fired but trust me this guy finds way more good players compared to bad. If gillis ever gets fired you will see him land a job quickly and go onto more success elsewhere. Vancouver fans never know what they have till it's gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silfverberg Snipes Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 I think the main thing that Detroit does right is that they place value in skill. Over the last decade they have consistently had the ability to out-talent teams that were clearly less skilled and less poised than them. These are things that can not happen when your depth players include Santorelli, Higgins, Richardson, Booth and a bunch of fourth liners. Sometimes grit and heart just isn't good enough. Moral of the story? Aging Skill > Gritty Youth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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