Burkini ban in France, sexist or liberating?

[Toews]

 

Are France’s burkini bans sexist, or liberating?

FILE - In this Aug.4 2016 file photo made from video, Nissrine Samali, 20, gets into the sea wearing a burkini, a wetsuit-like garment that also covers the head, in Marseille, southern France. France’s Socialist prime minister Manuel Valls is expressing support for local bans of burkinis, saying the swimwear is based on the “enslavement of women” and therefore not compatible with French values. (Associated Press)

By Angela Charlton | AP 

Europe

August 17

PARIS — Male officials are dictating what women can wear on French beaches — and people across a wide swath of French society say that’s a good thing.

Decrees issued by several mayors this month ban the body-encompassing burkini swimsuit, which France’s secular political class says subjugates women and is incompatible with a country whose motto celebrates equality and freedom.

To many Muslim women, that’s pure hypocrisy. They see the burkini bans themselves as sexist, not to mention racist and a reactionary backlash to terrorism fears.

Even though it’s only worn by a tiny minority, the burkini — a wetsuit-like garment that covers the torso, limbs and head — has prompted a national discussion about Islam and women’s bodies. At least five towns have banned them this summer, and others are threatening to follow suit.

Prime Minister Manuel Valls says the swimsuit reflects a worldview based on “the enslavement of women.” In an interview published Wednesday in the La Provence newspaper, he said the belief that women are “impure and that they should therefore be totally covered” was part of an “archaic vision.”

“That is not compatible with the values of France,” Valls said.

Much of the French political class, from the left to the far right, agrees — including the government’s proudly feminist women’s affairs minister.

“The burkini is ... a particular vision of the place of the woman. It cannot be considered only as a question of fashion or individual liberty,” Laurence Rossignol said on Europe-1 radio.

But Rim-Sarah Alouane, a religious freedom expert at the University of Toulouse, says the anti-burkini brigade is relying on outdated ideas about Islam to stigmatize France’s No. 2 religion.

“Women’s rights imply the right for a woman to cover up,” said Alouane, a Muslim who was born and raised in France. The burkini “was created by Western Muslim women who wanted to conciliate their faith and desire to dress modestly with recreational activities.

“What is more French than sitting on a beach in the sand? We are telling Muslims that no matter what you do ... we don’t want you here,” she said.

Local mayors cite multiple reasons for their burkini bans, including the difficulty of rescuing bathers in copious clothing. But their main justification is security concerns after a season marred by deadly Islamic extremist attacks.

Critics warn the bans could enflame religious and social tensions in a country already on edge.

Full Article:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/french-prime-minister-backs-local-burkini-bans-urges-calm/2016/08/17/98889804-644b-11e6-b4d8-33e931b5a26d_story.html

 

Picture of the offending garment...

 

 

[aGENT]

What a silly waste of governmental power.

[Toews]

@Mustapha 

 

I am fairly confident you will be one of three or so posters that won't find this absolutely retarded. So let's hear your version of why this isn't the stupidest ban ever.

[cabinessence]

7 minutes ago, Toews said:

@Mustapha 

 

I am fairly confident you will be one of three or so posters that won't find this absolutely retarded. So let's hear your version of why this isn't the stupidest ban ever.

Wll, you've already formed your opinion on his opinion, even before he expressed an opinion. Not bass solo worthy.

[Jägermeister]

Why not put effort into actually combating cultural oppressiveness and sexism, rather than telling people what swim suits they can and can't wear?

 

Just an attempt to fix the optics of a problem without doing anything to fix the underlying issue.

[nuckin_futz]

[Nucker 67]

If a woman chooses to wear this, why is it offensive? Maybe she's cold.

[RWMc1]

So, I guess Ninja costumes are out of the question then. Do they celebrate Halloween in France?

 

 

[-Stammer-]

great, now feminists are going to give people their daily dose of "why we need feminism"

[VanGnome]

Purely from a devil's advocate point of view:

 

1. A wetsuit is a functional piece of equipment used when scuba diving, it serves a specific purpose not an ideological one

2. A burkini is an ideologically imposed outfit who's sole purpose is nothing more than an attempt to cover as much skin as possible, again for ideological purposes and beliefs

3. A wetsuit is body conforming, and is a one piece design which leaves no ability for concealment

4. A burkini is a two piece outfit, appears to be generally loose fitting and as such could be used in such a way to conceal weaponry

 

Saying nothing of the choice of a Muslim (or any) woman to wear this or not, France is well within their rights to do this if they feel what the Burkini symbolizes clashes with France's own ideals and values; moreover when you look at the optics of terrorism abroad (which we are very much sheltered from here in Canada), this is another valid reason.

 

France and the surrounding region has endured terrible things in recent history due to terrorism and it's appropriation of Islamic faith in the process. This is not an indictment that any woman who chooses to wear a Burkini is a terrorist, so much as it is a precaution against those who would use women indoctrinated by the terrible appropriation of Islam and propaganda of terrorism to commit acts against innocent populations of civilians.

Keep in mind this is not a knee jerk precaution, France has recent precedent for being concerned by these possibilities. If the same were to be proposed in Canada or the USA, I would definitely have second thoughts about the motivations behind such a decision.

[Toews]

18 minutes ago, cabinessence said:

Wll, you've already formed your opinion on his opinion, even before he expressed an opinion. Not bass solo worthy.

I specifically mentioned him because his opinion deviates away from the consensus in topics such as these. It's obvious why this is the dumbest idea ever. We need dissenting opinions or there is little discussion value on this topic. 

[taxi]

I understand the ban on full face covers. There are reasons we need to be able to identify people in our society. However the "Burkina" ban is just a way to tell Muslim families they aren't welcome at the beach. Pure fascism. 

[Shift-4]

Sexist?

Directives regarding swimwear in France are not unique to women.

 

http://www.thegoodlifefrance.com/speedos-versus-trunks-in-swimming-pools-in-france/

 

https://blog.canvasholidays.co.uk/2015/04/06/the-rules-of-swimming-attire-in-france/

 

http://www.economist.com/blogs/gulliver/2011/07/swimming-rules

[HerrDrFunk]

26 minutes ago, shadowgoon said:

Purely from a devil's advocate point of view:

 

1. A wetsuit is a functional piece of equipment used when scuba diving, it serves a specific purpose not an ideological one

2. A burkini is an ideologically imposed outfit who's sole purpose is nothing more than an attempt to cover as much skin as possible, again for ideological purposes and beliefs

3. A wetsuit is body conforming, and is a one piece design which leaves no ability for concealment

4. A burkini is a two piece outfit, appears to be generally loose fitting and as such could be used in such a way to conceal weaponry

 

Saying nothing of the choice of a Muslim (or any) woman to wear this or not, France is well within their rights to do this if they feel what the Burkini symbolizes clashes with France's own ideals and values; moreover when you look at the optics of terrorism abroad (which we are very much sheltered from here in Canada), this is another valid reason.

 

France and the surrounding region has endured terrible things in recent history due to terrorism and it's appropriation of Islamic faith in the process. This is not an indictment that any woman who chooses to wear a Burkini is a terrorist, so much as it is a precaution against those who would use women indoctrinated by the terrible appropriation of Islam and propaganda of terrorism to commit acts against innocent populations of civilians.

Keep in mind this is not a knee jerk precaution, France has recent precedent for being concerned by these possibilities. If the same were to be proposed in Canada or the USA, I would definitely have second thoughts about the motivations behind such a decision.

Oh, Lord. That argument has so many holes in it's logic it's sadly hilarious. If they're that worried about it, why not just make all of France's beaches nude only then? I could smuggle a weapon in surf shorts and a tank top. 

[Hugor Hill]

Racist.

 

p.s. Racist.

 

 

[cabinessence]

1 hour ago, nuckin_futz said:

As soon as people in wetsuits are tied to misogyny and hate of western values, I'm sure they might be banned too. How about as soon as you can go swimming in Saudi Arabia in a bikini, we reconsider the ban?

[nuckin_futz]

10 minutes ago, cabinessence said:

As soon as people in wetsuits are tied to misogyny and hate of western values, I'm sure they might be banned too. How about as soon as you can go swimming in Saudi Arabia in a bikini, we reconsider the ban?

Saudi Arabia has zero to do with the argument.

 

If the French women in question all showed up in wet suits I get the feeling you'd still flip your sh*t.

[Hugor Hill]

13 minutes ago, cabinessence said:

As soon as people in wetsuits are tied to misogyny and hate of western values, I'm sure they might be banned too. How about as soon as you can go swimming in Saudi Arabia in a bikini, we reconsider the ban?

They actually have designated Western people swimming pools that Western people can go with their bikinis / swim trunks.

 

 

[Mr.DirtyDangles]

On 2016-08-22 at 11:05 AM, -Stammer- said:

great, now feminists are going to give people their daily dose of "why we need feminism"

Feminism is another word for "Stick hot needles in your eyes."

[elvis15]

1 hour ago, J.R. said:

What a silly waste of governmental power.

That will do absolutely nothing. It won't empower women, it won't stop terrorism, it won't do anything but further segregate women who would otherwise feel ok to go to the beach if they can wear one of these and force them to stay at home.

 

What empowering women is about is giving them the freedom to have the choice to wear what makes them feel comfortable. This does the opposite of that in the guise of freeing women from the oppression of a certain religion and reducing the risk of a terrorist attack.