Rise of far right in Europe

[CBH1926]

17 hours ago, Toews said:

This is hypocritical of you. You claim to be concerned with what is occurring in Germany. I also feel concern over what is occurring currently in the US. My point with that post was to say that while recently fringe parties are becoming more popular in Germany, it still pales in terms of numbers to most other countries. Inevitably Germany was always going shift towards the right as their history becomes less and less relevant to today's voters. Is it concerning to me? I am not entirely sure, perhaps a German would be able to better address that question. I doubt we are going to see an reincarnation of the Austrian painter any time soon, people can be shortsighted but not that shortsighted.

This was a thread about election in Germany, you are the one that brought up another country.

As a European, and a person that lost lot of family members to those same Germans, you can see why I would be interested.

 

You also brought up the argument, why worry about Germany when there are bigger issues in the USA.

Sure DT is acting like a petulant child, but that still doesn't change the fact that AfD got into Bundestag.

 

[Scottish⑦Canuck]

2 hours ago, CBH1926 said:

This was a thread about election in Germany, you are the one that brought up another country.

As a European, and a person that lost lot of family members to those same Germans, you can see why I would be interested.

 

You also brought up the argument, why worry about Germany when there are bigger issues in the USA.

Sure DT is acting like a petulant child, but that still doesn't change the fact that AfD got into Bundestag.

 

Not really. We don't live in the 1940s.

[Alflives]

7 minutes ago, Scottish⑦Canuck said:

Not really. We don't live in the 1940s.

Does it really matter the decade, or century?  People, unfortunately, can become controlled mindless drones in any time period.  Look at the insanity currently occurring in the USA.  The stupidity, on all sides, is quite scary. 

[Warhippy]

3 hours ago, Lateralus91 said:

@Warhippy and anyone who's interested. Just saw this article on Twitter and I found it to be very accurate on Merkel's foreign policy in the age of Trump, Putin, Erdogan and Brexit.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/24/world/europe/germany-merkel-europe.html?smid=tw-nytimes&smtyp=cur

Thanks for the link man.

 

Very interested 

[Toews]

6 hours ago, CBH1926 said:

This was a thread about election in Germany, you are the one that brought up another country.

As a European, and a person that lost lot of family members to those same Germans, you can see why I would be interested.

 

You also brought up the argument, why worry about Germany when there are bigger issues in the USA.

Sure DT is acting like a petulant child, but that still doesn't change the fact that AfD got into Bundestag.

 

Yes I brought up another country as a point of reference. I did not try and make it about the United States. I was engaging in dialogue with you regarding your concern about the rise of right wing elements in Germany. It was you that decided to frame my response as an obsession.

 

I sympathize with your loss and again I have never said you should not care about the state of Germany. I am not Jewish so I cannot relate to what you feel towards Germany. Personally I have family in different parts of the world so I do follow certain countries closer than others. But all in all I am concerned with what is occurring everywhere whether it be Europe, the Middle East, Asia, Australia etc. We live in a global community now, people who state that I should not be concerned with what is occurring in say New Zealand are narrow-minded and their apathy is a major obstacle in the progress of the human race. This attitude that you should not be concerned with anything past your borders or the actions of your country is why in the past we have let atrocities occur and why now we continue to let them occur.

 

No actually it was you that decided to interpret my response that way. I already provided context for that post which you seem to have ignored entirely. But I will repeat it again, Germany still is further away from embracing far-right elements than other countries. I simply used the US as a point of comparison. Let me ask you, what exactly are you concerned about? You have brought up a certain Austrian painter in this thread. Are you concerned that Germany is headed down the same path as the 1930s? If so I think that's fairly absurd, Germans have a heightened wariness of never repeating their history and going down that path. A German in this thread has compared the AFD to the Republican Party, consider the level of opposition that the AFD gets in Germany compared to the Republican Party in US. 

 

I have not mentioned Trump's name even once in this thread. Its funny that you accuse me of only caring only when the subject is Trump when you are the one who keeps bringing him up in our discourse. I simply don't share your level of concern with the AFD getting seats in the Bundestag. Aren't you always stating that Germany has let their citizens down by letting in too many migrants into their country? Isn't the goal of the AFD to curb this issue? Seems to me like you should be more in support of AFD than against if you feel that Germany has a failure of an immigration policy. 

[Violator]

I doubt the jews in germany have anything to worry about when it comes to the goverment.They should be more worried about right wing extremism that is currently expanding throught europe.

[Lateralus91]

For what it's worth. The latest developments with the SPD likely becoming the opposition leader and CDU, FDP and Green Party the government coalition... the big topic come next election could very well be more social politics. I'll explain why. CDU and FDP are largely pro-business and haven't concerned themselves too much with social issues. And similar to the US we also have the problems with the poor getting poorer and the rich getting richer. If the SPD is smart enough - and I think they will - they will work on exactly that to be their main argument in their programme next election and work out an elaborate social plan that speaks to the bases of many parties.

 

That could lead to a coalition of SPD, Left and Green Party to get a majority. Now, in the past SPD largely refused to work with the Left, because they had more radical tendencies in the past. But their new party leaders are more moderate in their approach and the SPD will likely be willing to work with them.

 

Another thing that's going to be interesting to see is how the refugee topic will develop. 4 years from now most will have settled in. The numbers of refugees coming to Germany are already decreasing. Which leads me to the assumption that it won't be as big a topic as it is now. That would also mean less voters for AfD.

[Warhippy]

8 hours ago, Lateralus91 said:

For what it's worth. The latest developments with the SPD likely becoming the opposition leader and CDU, FDP and Green Party the government coalition... the big topic come next election could very well be more social politics. I'll explain why. CDU and FDP are largely pro-business and haven't concerned themselves too much with social issues. And similar to the US we also have the problems with the poor getting poorer and the rich getting richer. If the SPD is smart enough - and I think they will - they will work on exactly that to be their main argument in their programme next election and work out an elaborate social plan that speaks to the bases of many parties.

 

That could lead to a coalition of SPD, Left and Green Party to get a majority. Now, in the past SPD largely refused to work with the Left, because they had more radical tendencies in the past. But their new party leaders are more moderate in their approach and the SPD will likely be willing to work with them.

 

Another thing that's going to be interesting to see is how the refugee topic will develop. 4 years from now most will have settled in. The numbers of refugees coming to Germany are already decreasing. Which leads me to the assumption that it won't be as big a topic as it is now. That would also mean less voters for AfD.

I spoke earlier about this same issue.  In the order f 1.1 million people entered Germany over the last 2 years or so

 

All the media and the...more "ethnically interested" people here in North America can key in to are the crime rates and whteher or not they are migrant related.

 

Adding over a million people or the population of a major city to any area/country is going to have profound effects.

 

They completely ignore the crimes happening in their own cities and instead point fingers at other countries and blame migrants.  Fabricate and perpetuate the myth of no go zones and more.

 

I feel as though a lot of the bumps in the process as you stated over the next 4 years will have abated after people start integrating in to your society.

[Lancaster]

On 9/23/2017 at 6:53 AM, Toews said:

Why not? By all means you are free to express your thoughts on this forum. Just like I think the fact that your are recommending a YouTube channel as a source to be completely absurd.

 

"Black Pigeon Speaks" 

 

I am sure he thinks he is edgy and he discusses a lot of material that the "MSM refuses to cover". Everything will likely have a healthy dose of anti-Semitic conspiracy peddling, Islamaphobia and sexism. Save yourself the time folks and don't give these scumbags anymore hits.

He's a Vancouverite who has since moved to Japan.  

Not anti-Semetic, Islamaphobic or anything.... just points out a lot of stuff that's happen in the world (using news and stuff), using statistics, and stuff too.  

[joe-max]

3 hours ago, Warhippy said:

I spoke earlier about this same issue.  In the order f 1.1 million people entered Germany over the last 2 years or so

 

All the media and the...more "ethnically interested" people here in North America can key in to are the crime rates and whteher or not they are migrant related.

 

Adding over a million people or the population of a major city to any area/country is going to have profound effects.

 

They completely ignore the crimes happening in their own cities and instead point fingers at other countries and blame migrants.  Fabricate and perpetuate the myth of no go zones and more.

 

I feel as though a lot of the bumps in the process as you stated over the next 4 years will have abated after people start integrating in to your society.

Interestingly, the AfD got most votes in the federal states that either have (by far) the lowest proportion of foreigners (less than 4% in Brandenburg, Sachsen, Sachsen-Anhalt, Thüringen) or are the wealthiest (Bayern, Baden-Württemberg).

[Warhippy]

21 minutes ago, joe-max said:

Interestingly, the AfD got most votes in the federal states that either have (by far) the lowest proportion of foreigners (less than 4% in Brandenburg, Sachsen, Sachsen-Anhalt, Thüringen) or are the wealthiest (Bayern, Baden-Württemberg).

If that demographic holds true it really is interesting.

 

My take was simply any time you add the population of Calgary to any area there will be problems in the early going

[Lateralus91]

23 minutes ago, joe-max said:

Interestingly, the AfD got most votes in the federal states that either have (by far) the lowest proportion of foreigners (less than 4% in Brandenburg, Sachsen, Sachsen-Anhalt, Thüringen) or are the wealthiest (Bayern, Baden-Württemberg).

 

1 minute ago, Warhippy said:

If that demographic holds true it really is interesting.

 

My take was simply any time you add the population of Calgary to any area there will be problems in the early going

 

http://www.zeit.de/politik/deutschland/2017-09/german-election-alternative-for-germany-angela-merkel?utm_content=zeitde_redpost+_link_sf&utm_campaign=ref&utm_source=twitter_zonaudev_int&utm_medium=sm&wt_zmc=sm.int.zonaudev.twitter.ref.zeitde.redpost.link.sf

 

A few stats on the AfD and the election. English link, but from a German newspaper.

[joe-max]

1 hour ago, Warhippy said:

If that demographic holds true it really is interesting.

 

My take was simply any time you add the population of Calgary to any area there will be problems in the early going

It again shows how right-wing populism works. Use general dissatisfaction, fuel fears, provide simple answers for complex problems. Voilà. 13%. 

[Kragar]

10 minutes ago, joe-max said:

It again shows how right-wing populism works. Use general dissatisfaction, fuel fears, provide simple answers for complex problems. Voilà. 13%. 

Fixed.  Populism is populism.

[CBH1926]

23 hours ago, Scottish⑦Canuck said:

Not really. We don't live in the 1940s.

What I am interested in, is really none of your business or concern.

Especially in regards to my family!

[CBH1926]

21 hours ago, Toews said:

Yes I brought up another country as a point of reference. I did not try and make it about the United States. I was engaging in dialogue with you regarding your concern about the rise of right wing elements in Germany. It was you that decided to frame my response as an obsession.

 

I sympathize with your loss and again I have never said you should not care about the state of Germany. I am not Jewish so I cannot relate to what you feel towards Germany. Personally I have family in different parts of the world so I do follow certain countries closer than others. But all in all I am concerned with what is occurring everywhere whether it be Europe, the Middle East, Asia, Australia etc. We live in a global community now, people who state that I should not be concerned with what is occurring in say New Zealand are narrow-minded and their apathy is a major obstacle in the progress of the human race. This attitude that you should not be concerned with anything past your borders or the actions of your country is why in the past we have let atrocities occur and why now we continue to let them occur.

 

No actually it was you that decided to interpret my response that way. I already provided context for that post which you seem to have ignored entirely. But I will repeat it again, Germany still is further away from embracing far-right elements than other countries. I simply used the US as a point of comparison. Let me ask you, what exactly are you concerned about? You have brought up a certain Austrian painter in this thread. Are you concerned that Germany is headed down the same path as the 1930s? If so I think that's fairly absurd, Germans have a heightened wariness of never repeating their history and going down that path. A German in this thread has compared the AFD to the Republican Party, consider the level of opposition that the AFD gets in Germany compared to the Republican Party in US. 

 

I have not mentioned Trump's name even once in this thread. Its funny that you accuse me of only caring only when the subject is Trump when you are the one who keeps bringing him up in our discourse. I simply don't share your level of concern with the AFD getting seats in the Bundestag. Aren't you always stating that Germany has let their citizens down by letting in too many migrants into their country? Isn't the goal of the AFD to curb this issue? Seems to me like you should be more in support of AFD than against if you feel that Germany has a failure of an immigration policy. 

Let me start by saying that my family is not and was not Jewish, I am not sure where you got that idea from.

As far as my concerns go, I am concerned about the rise of the far right in Europe.

Lot of other people, that don't get their news from the onion, are concerned as well

 

I mentioned AH to make a point about taking years for him to rise to power.

In 1919 handful of WW1 German veterans, started this party that ended up causing tens of millions of deaths.

In 4 years AFD went from 4.7% to almost 13%, in eastern parts of Germany they got 20% plus votes.

 

As far as AdF goes, to compare them to the republicans is inaccurate and baseless.

Everyone refers to them as far right with ties to nazis, right now people that are protesting in Germany are using term "no to nazis"

Opinion of some random guy from Germany that they are like GOP, is irrelevant to this matter.

Also lot of former NPD voters from Germany have switched to AFD, 

 

Torsten Krauel who is the political chief for Die Welt has compared the rise of AfD to 1933.

Sure people disagree, but he brings some interesting points.

Its nice to hear that you follow world affairs, but you did bring USA political situation into this, which I pointed out.

 

Since you mentioned my views on German immigration, let me help you out.

I have always criticized Western Europe in regards to their integration of the immigrants.

Also Germany has used its economic power to bully other smaller EU countries.

 

Your last point that I should be more supportive of AFD. 

I take that as a cheap shoot, and won't waste my time to respond to that.

 

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-germany-election-afd/far-right-party-likened-to-nazis-to-shake-up-german-parliament-idUSKCN1BS0H0

 

https://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article168996285/Vom-heilsamen-Zwang-eines-Wahldesasters.html

 

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/09/25/german-far-right-afd-party-raises-concerns-about-nazi-ideology-of-the-past-warns-ex-merkel-official.html

 

https://www.thelocal.de/20170924/far-right-afd-marches-into-parliament-with-strong-election-results

 

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2017/09/german-election-afd-170921080912611.html

Edited September 26, 2017 by CBH1926
Notes

[Toews]

5 hours ago, CBH1926 said:

Let me start by saying that my family is not and was not Jewish, I am not sure where you got that idea from.

As far as my concerns go, I am concerned about the rise of the far right in Europe.

Lot of other people, that don't get their news from the onion, are concerned as well

 

I mentioned AH to make a point about taking years for him to rise to power.

In 1919 handful of WW1 German veterans, started this party that ended up causing tens of millions of deaths.

In 4 years AFD went from 4.7% to almost 13%, in eastern parts of Germany they got 20% plus votes.

 

As far as AdF goes, to compare them to the republicans is inaccurate and baseless.

Everyone refers to them as far right with ties to nazis, right now people that are protesting in Germany are using term "no to nazis"

Opinion of some random guy from Germany that they are like GOP, is irrelevant to this matter.

Also lot of former NPD voters from Germany have switched to AFD, 

 

Torsten Krauel who is the political chief for Die Welt has compared the rise of AfD to 1933.

Sure people disagree, but he brings some interesting points.

Its nice to hear that you follow world affairs, but you did bring USA political situation into this, which I pointed out.

 

Since you mentioned my views on German immigration, let me help you out.

I have always criticized Western Europe in regards to their integration of the immigrants.

Also Germany has used its economic power to bully other smaller EU countries.

 

Your last point that I should be more supportive of AFD. 

I take that as a cheap shoot, and won't waste my time to respond to that.

 

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-germany-election-afd/far-right-party-likened-to-nazis-to-shake-up-german-parliament-idUSKCN1BS0H0

 

https://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article168996285/Vom-heilsamen-Zwang-eines-Wahldesasters.html

 

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/09/25/german-far-right-afd-party-raises-concerns-about-nazi-ideology-of-the-past-warns-ex-merkel-official.html

 

https://www.thelocal.de/20170924/far-right-afd-marches-into-parliament-with-strong-election-results

 

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2017/09/german-election-afd-170921080912611.html

My apologies, perhaps I misinterpreted your past statements regarding Hiter and Germany and assumed that you had lost family in the Holocaust. 

 

I am simply not sure how much of the concern over the AfD's rise is justified and whether it is just fear mongering. Germans have a heightened sense of wariness over the far-right. But far-right doesn't automatically mean Nazis. It doesn't mean that those that support the AfD began to support them because they support ethnic cleansings and other Nazi ideology. 

 

People have compared Trump to Hitler, people have compared his rise to that of Nazis. It doesn't mean the comparison has much merit, fear mongering and demonization from hysterical elements of the left distorts what reality actually looks like. It seems many that do not like what AfD stands for are quick to throw around the term Nazis because it helps them demonize those that voted for them.

 

I brought up the US situation as a point of comparison. Nothing more was said, it was you that decided to frame it as an obsession.

 

I am not demonizing your views regarding Europe's immigration policy. I have concerns regarding the issue as well. I am pro-immigration and pro-refugees but if tomorrow Canada decided to let 1M+ refugees just waltz into the country then I would absolutely be against such a move. If my country is going to accept refugees then they should have a clear plan on how to deal with them and how to make sure that they have an opportunity at success. That is why we have limits in Canada to how many refugees and immigrants can enter the country. 

 

Well it wasn't meant as a "cheap shot". The only person who has been hostile in our discussion has been you. It was you that you that decided to refer to a mere comparison as an obsession. It was you that decided to accuse me of only caring when the subject was Trump despite the fact that I had never mentioned his name in this thread at all. I also don't appreciate you telling me what I care or don't care about when you do not know me personally. Just because I post on certain subjects more often on this forum does not mean that I do not care about other issues. I also don't appreciate you up voting a post by someone referring to me as "not a Canadian". But whatever man...

 

As far as what I meant... AfD wants changes to the immigration policy, you do not have to be anti-Muslim or anti-immigration to support them. Maybe those that voted for them hope that they can swing Germany's immigration policy more to the center. You might perceive them as something close to the Nazis but I do not. I think the rise of the AfD is just a natural reaction to Germany's immigration policy. I did not mean you any offense when I made that comment. Perhaps your views regarding the AfD are more on point than mine but until I can see that the 13% that voted for them are Nazis or Nazi sympathizers I am not going to be all that convinced. 

 

I dislike all elements of the far-right and especially the alt-right movement but I have always believed that people turn towards extremist and fringe groups because the mainstream has let them down. As @Lateralus91 stated Germany's mainstream political parties need to address the growing divide between the rich and the poor. If they were to effectively address these concerns in the next election then I think you will see support of these fringe political parties begin to dwindle again.

[Lateralus91]

If I compare the AfD to the US Republicans I do do that with all its consequences. Most of them are really center-right and voters that used to vote CDU but don't vote for them as they've swayed more to the left in recent years. CDU's recent "slogan" is "Die Mitte". Literally "the center". There is a political vacuum where the CDU used to operate. That's being filled unfortunately by the AfD.

I think anyone can agree that the US Republicans have a fraction among their voters who are right wing and racist and would fulfill the term "Nazi" with their political views here in Germany. So does the AfD, no question about that. And yes, that part is dangerous. But there has been a recent survey among AfD voters which stated that upwards of 60% (as far as I remember) think the party leaders of AfD don't distance themselves enough from that right wing (I'll try to dig up the survey for you). And I think that's another parallel to the Republicans at the moment. Trump is way more radical in his views than most of Republican voters. But that goes to show that there is a considerable amount of protest voters among them and not all 13% are right wing loons and Nazis.

Edited September 26, 2017 by Lateralus91

[Lateralus91]

http://wahl.tagesschau.de/wahlen/2017-09-24-BT-DE/umfrage-aussagen.shtml

 

 

View of AfD voters on their own party

 

99% "understood better than others that people don't feel safe anymore"

99% "like it that the party wants to reduce influence of Islam on Germany"

96% "like it that the party wants to reduce the migration of refugees"

85% "Is the only party that caters to my desire to protest"

55% "does not distance itself enough from right wing extremist positions"

[Scottish⑦Canuck]

12 hours ago, CBH1926 said:

What I am interested in, is really none of your business or concern.

Especially in regards to my family!

 

You said that comparing the AfD to the Republicans is baseless, which is fair enough. But then you compare the rise of the far right in Germany in 2016 to the rise of "an Austrian painter" in the 1930s. That in itself an absurd comparison. Hence the 1940s comment.

 

It's of concern to anyone who chooses to reply to you. You brought it into the public view by posting about it in the first place, so enough of the faux offence.