The Status of This Year's Team is Clear: A Big Head's Take

[EdgarM]

2 hours ago, Attila Umbrus said:

For sure they are, the Sedins still dictate a lot of what goes on behind closed doors. Plus it's not like Green can play the north/south style he wants to with them. So he's handcuffed and has to adjust his game plan for them, because they cannot even remotely play that way. I don't blame either side. But I relish the day we move on from this style of play and go back to a more aggressive form of hockey. I loved my 94 Canucks, they weren't the best team, but full of heart and tough as nails, but they also could put the puck in the net. This team needs more piss and more vinigar...to put it politely...

Sadly the Sedins were mentored by another "gentlemanly" Swede in Naslund. This team has not been the same since the '94 Canucks lead by Linden. I am looking forward to when we can "move on" to another style of play by our beloved Canucks.

[Baggins]

On 1/12/2018 at 1:55 PM, EdgarM said:

Sadly the Sedins were mentored by another "gentlemanly" Swede in Naslund. This team has not been the same since the '94 Canucks lead by Linden. I am looking forward to when we can "move on" to another style of play by our beloved Canucks.

 

I'd say the teams style doesn't have anything to do with the Sedins at all. I'd say the likes of Kesler, Burrows, Lappierre, Bieksa, Hordichuk, and several others over the years refute that notion. The Sedins are simply who they have always been. Just as those others I named were who they always were: hitters/agitators. The Sedins have never been big hitters or drop the gloves kind of guys and there's plenty of other players around the league that are the same way. The Sedins are neither coach nor GM to dictate how others on the team play. We're simply lacking in those types of aggressive/physical/agitator type players now. And that's certainly not the fault of the Sedins. They didn't create the current roster.

 

The teams "style of play" is dictated by the coach according to the personnel he's given by the GM. Just as the '94 teams style had less to do with Linden than it did the types of players on the team. That team had quite a few players that played physical and always had. It also had several, other than Gino, with a willingness to drop the gloves.

[LimitedEdition]

On 1/11/2018 at 9:56 PM, Horvats_Big_Head said:

After a great start to the year, which saw a remarkable uptick in quality of play versus previous years, the boys caught the injury bug. They are now 2-11 without Horvat in the lineup. Boeser has been an absolute stud, he and the Sedins can't carry this team. So the results are to be expected. 

 

That leaves us in the position we are now, tanking for a shot at the #1 pick and drafting our #1 D man that has eluded this franchise since birth. Yes, Horvat may come back in time and the team could get healthy for a miracle run at the playoffs, but this is very unlikely. We should be tanking which means trading our top UFA assets at the deadline. This would include trading Vanek (a 2nd?) and Gudbranson (3rd?) no question. 

 

This does NOT include trading one of our top young Defensemen, BEN HUTTON. Hutton needs to stay, as we are still not sure if Juolevi will amount to much. I sure think he will but Ben Hutton is our insurance piece. Plus he still could get better. Defensemen progress slower than forwards sometimes. Ben is just in a slump right now and will improve. Trade the vets and all of our useless prospects, such as Cassels. We traded Subban and that was great, but we now have too many prospects who we know will not amount to anything. 

 

Overall, it has been a very good first half of the season. Some of the most exciting Canucks hockey I've seen in over 5 years. And we are tanking for just one more year, then next year I expect us to take another step forwards. We are about to cash in on a lot of prospects ready to take over, and boy is it going to be a great ride. 

 

I added a poll to make this thread more interesting. Again, I need to stress that we cannot trade Ben Hutton. 

Hutton is no longer one of the Canucks top young defensemen.  In my humble opinoion he has been passed by Pouliot and Stecher.

[Rob_Zepp]

On 1/11/2018 at 9:56 PM, Horvats_Big_Head said:

Hutton needs to stay, as we are still not sure if Juolevi will amount to much.

You lost all ability to respond logically to your premise with this.   First, not sure who "we" is but Hutton was a fifth round, relatively late blooming college kid who could skate but many wondered about his hockey IQ.   He seems to be mired in a 1.5 year long slump which could actually be he has gone as far as a fifth round pick with a ceiling gets.   OJ was a consensus first round pick and in the three of all D prospects in his draft year.   He is growing into an adult body but his first taste of pro hockey has been excellent (historical numbers for a U20 in that league) and he showed at WJC he is "right there" with the best of the best NHL prospects.   

[Ghostsof1915]

1 minute ago, Rob_Zepp said:

You lost all ability to respond logically to your premise with this.   First, not sure who "we" is but Hutton was a fifth round, relatively late blooming college kid who could skate but many wondered about his hockey IQ.   He seems to be mired in a 1.5 year long slump which could actually be he has gone as far as a fifth round pick with a ceiling gets.   OJ was a consensus first round pick and in the three of all D prospects in his draft year.   He is growing into an adult body but his first taste of pro hockey has been excellent (historical numbers for a U20 in that league) and he showed at WJC he is "right there" with the best of the best NHL prospects.   

RZ, the voice of sanity. 

[EdgarM]

4 hours ago, Baggins said:

 

I'd say the teams style doesn't have anything to do with the Sedins at all. I'd say the likes of Kesler, Burrows, Lappierre, Bieksa, Hordichuk, and several others over the years refute that notion. The Sedins are simply who they have always been. Just as those others I named were who they always were: hitters/agitators. The Sedins have never been big hitters or drop the gloves kind of guys and there's plenty of other players around the league that are the same way. The Sedins are neither coach nor GM to dictate how others on the team play. We're simply lacking in those types of aggressive/physical/agitator type players now. And that's certainly not the fault of the Sedins. They didn't create the current roster.

 

The teams "style of play" is dictated by the coach according to the personnel he's given by the GM. Just as the '94 teams style had less to do with Linden than it did the types of players on the team. That team had quite a few players that played physical and always had. It also had several, other than Gino, with a willingness to drop the gloves.

Although we had all of those type of players,...... who wore the "C"? I had seen Kessler get aggravated in numerous games where the enthusiasm was not the same with the rest of the team, especially in playoff games. I remember him when he would go "Beast Mode" and the rest of the team did not follow. I believe this is a major reason why he left, he did not want to be a part of it anymore and maybe the same with Bieksa. Not sure what the problem is but the common denominator seems to be the Sedins "gentlemanly" demeanor throughout that time period. Look at the frustration level Bertuzzi finally got to when the team did absolutely nothing to protect their "gentlemanly" Captain Nazzy.

Although the 94' team had some tough customers it also had smallish players who did not take any crap(Bure,Courtnall,Ronning etc.) who played hard every night. It also had players who were not aggressive(Craven,Brown,Adams) who were not the leaders but played key roles on the team. Linden put all of these elements together to make it work and it was like a wolf pack mentality where the whole team stuck up for each other which also made it look like they were more a coesive unit. In those days the "goons" rarely played in playoff games so they could not rely on them in the playoffs to provide "protection". It was up to the team to play as "wolfpack" to make it through a grueling playoff season. Something this team has lacked in recent years and probably since the 94' team which was lead by Linden. Those who remember, say was a very sad day in Canuckland when Linden was dethroned as the Captain of this team and not sure if he has had a proper replacement since then, IMHO.

 

Linden heroic in 1994 Stanley Cup Final

by John McGourty / Vancouver Canucks

December 15th, 2008

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+ Click for larger photo After all these years, Cliff Ronning lets us in on a secret that speaks glowingly of Trevor Linden's competitiveness and tenacity. "You don't know this, but Trevor Linden had cracked ribs and torn rib cartilage for the last four games of the 1994 Stanley Cup Final," Cliff Ronning said. "You can't imagine what it's like to hear your captain, in a room down the hall, screaming at the top of his lungs as they injected the needle into his rib cage. Knowing him, he probably thought we couldn't hear. He would then walk into our dressing room like nothing had happened. That was inspirational." Ronning was remembering Linden dropping his right shoulder into Brian Leetch, pushing the defenseman to the side and scoring on Mike Richter to make the score 2-1 Rangers in Game 7 of the Final. Linden couldn't will his team to victory that night, despite his two goals, in the deciding 3-2 loss. "I broke my hand in that game," Ronning recalled. "But how do I say I can't play when there's a guy who has played four games with broken ribs and torn cartilage and he's dropping his shoulder into guys to make plays? "There's a famous picture of Trevor and goalie Kirk McLean standing in exhaustion and it exemplifies what everyone on our team gave that day. It was a sad day because we lost, but it was a great day in the sense of what we had accomplished. We were not as talented a team, but how close we came! And, how close we became as friends, to this day." Ronning said the famous picture of Linden and goalie Kirk McLean, standing together in Game 7 in total exhaustion, captures the moment. The Canucks had beaten the Calgary Flames in seven games, the last three in overtime, before five-game series victories over the Dallas Stars and Toronto Maple Leafs. Linden was Vancouver's second-leading scorer in the playoffs, behind his right winger Pavel Bure, with 12 goals and 13 assists. Down 3-1 in the Final, the Canucks rallied to win Games 5 and 6.   + Click for larger photo At one point in Game 6 in Vancouver, Linden crawled on the ice to get to his bench, he was in so much pain. "Trevor and Kirk and the exhaustion in their faces exemplifies what everyone on our team gave that day," Ronning said. "Pat Quinn was inspirational to the younger players and put us in situations that we'd be accountable to each other. That's where Trevor fit in. He showed us that his accountability as a player was to the team, not to Trevor. By playing on the defensive side of the puck and taking hits to make plays, to staying in the night before a big game, Trevor set the disciplinary tone by himself. That's why we saw him as a great leader. "Quinn slowly groomed our team as he went along and he needed a captain who shared his philosophy of hard work," Ronning said. "Trevor never took a shift off. He sacrificed his body to block shots and did a lot of little things that some scorers won't do. That's what made him an excellent captain." Ronning grew up in suburban Vancouver, in Burnaby, and was overjoyed to be traded from the St. Blues to the Canucks in 1991. He had a lot riding on winning the 1994 Stanley Cup but even more in seeing his hometown take the Canucks to their heart. He knows the role Linden played in making that happen. "He's been great for this city from the day he got here until he played his last game," Ronning said. "It's not just what he did on the ice. He did so much for the community. I can feel that connection with the fans and you don't know how many sick kids he visited in hospitals. He brought this community together and I've always thought it would be interesting if he ran for mayor."   + Click for larger photo The NHL honored Linden in 1997 as the 10th recipient of the King Clancy Memorial Trophy. "Certain people have leadership skills in their makeup and it was abundantly evident in Trevor Linden," said Quinn, who named Linden team captain at age 21. "He had shown it as a young player and we were a team changing our ethic. We hadn't been a winning organization. He seemed the right guy to put in there to be our leader and captain. "He was a high-level performer who brought his level up in the big games. He didn't make mistakes and he scored important goals. Even if he wasn't a prolific scorer, he was that good, solid, two-way player that coaches love to have in the lineup. "Linden was big in that Game 7 and the whole series," Quinn continued. "There's no possible way to give more than he did. He led by example and was a monster in the final game. Woulda, coulda, shoulda, but Vancouver should have won that series. We were better in four of the seven games."

[linden17]

On ‎2018‎-‎01‎-‎11 at 9:56 PM, Horvats_Big_Head said:

After a great start to the year, which saw a remarkable uptick in quality of play versus previous years, the boys caught the injury bug. They are now 2-11 without Horvat in the lineup. Boeser has been an absolute stud, he and the Sedins can't carry this team. So the results are to be expected. 

 

That leaves us in the position we are now, tanking for a shot at the #1 pick and drafting our #1 D man that has eluded this franchise since birth. Yes, Horvat may come back in time and the team could get healthy for a miracle run at the playoffs, but this is very unlikely. We should be tanking which means trading our top UFA assets at the deadline. This would include trading Vanek (a 2nd?) and Gudbranson (3rd?) no question. 

 

This does NOT include trading one of our top young Defensemen, BEN HUTTON. Hutton needs to stay, as we are still not sure if Juolevi will amount to much. I sure think he will but Ben Hutton is our insurance piece. Plus he still could get better. Defensemen progress slower than forwards sometimes. Ben is just in a slump right now and will improve. Trade the vets and all of our useless prospects, such as Cassels. We traded Subban and that was great, but we now have too many prospects who we know will not amount to anything. 

 

Overall, it has been a very good first half of the season. Some of the most exciting Canucks hockey I've seen in over 5 years. And we are tanking for just one more year, then next year I expect us to take another step forwards. We are about to cash in on a lot of prospects ready to take over, and boy is it going to be a great ride. 

 

I added a poll to make this thread more interesting. Again, I need to stress that we cannot trade Ben Hutton. 

quit beating a dead horse. Tanking is pathetic and no respectful team does it. Drives me nuts when people say this. We aren't exactly climbing the standings as is right now. why inflict a losing attitude upon our young guys? Given the way the draft lottery goes, what makes you think we are getting the number one overall with your method?

[CroSen]

Pretty much anyone,except Boeser and maybe Horvat, should be available for trade for the right price. 

[Gurn]

Every single player, without a ntc/nmc, is tradable. It all depends on the return.

At or before the deadline I'd try trading

Vanek

Grandlund or Beartschi 

Gaunce or Chaput or Dowd.

 

Tanev or Gubranson  

Del Zotto 

 

I also would look into the possibility trading Dorsett, perhaps some team can use his cap relief to help them out?

 

 

[189lb enforcers?]

Remember when Ohlund was a Calder finalist?

And TO tried to poach him?

Would be nice to get that kind of Dman again. 

 

A modern Adam Foote, please. 

 

[Baggins]

19 hours ago, EdgarM said:

Although we had all of those type of players,...... who wore the "C"?

Henrik, kind of the whole point I was making. Henrik wearing the C has no effect on other players playing soft or not. We've had hard hitting, agitating, scrappers with Henrik as captain (how can that be?). The problem isn't Henrik as captain it's insufficient tough, hard hitters, on the roster now. Linden as captain isn't going to suddenly make Baertschi a big hitting drop your gloves kind of player. If Horvat was going to inspire that kind of change it would have likely happened just by playing on his line this long. Just as I doubt having Horvat as captain will made Joulevi a big hitting drop your gloves kind of guy. A player either has that in him or he doesn`t.

 

Naslund was here with both Linden and Messier as captains before him. Why didn`t it change him into a hard hitting scrapper? Maybe because that simply wasn`t his game.

[RonMexico]

22 minutes ago, Baggins said:

Henrik, kind of the whole point I was making. Henrik wearing the C has no effect on other players playing soft or not. We've had hard hitting, agitating, scrappers with Henrik as captain (how can that be?). The problem isn't Henrik as captain it's insufficient tough, hard hitters, on the roster now. Linden as captain isn't going to suddenly make Baertschi a big hitting drop your gloves kind of player. If Horvat was going to inspire that kind of change it would have likely happened just by playing on his line this long. Just as I doubt having Horvat as captain will made Joulevi a big hitting drop your gloves kind of guy. A player either has that in him or he doesn`t.

 

Naslund was here with both Linden and Messier as captains before him. Why didn`t it change him into a hard hitting scrapper? Maybe because that simply wasn`t his game.

 

But Henrik isn't tough though. Only reputed tough guys can be captains, like McDavid, Toews, Stamkos, Crosby, Giroux, Zetterberg, Pavelski, Karlsson, Kopitar, etc. etc.

 

 

[kloubek]

16 hours ago, gurn said:

Every single player, without a ntc/nmc, is tradable. It all depends on the return.

Exactly.  Presumably with the exception of the Sedins, out of respect.  Even WiseOne's comment about Boeser or Horvat is incorrect.  You better believe Benning would trade either for McDavid in a second. Nobody is untouchable.

 

I am not sure why Hutton is being keyed on exactly by the OP, but he's pretty irrelevant to the conversation since even if we did trade him we'd get next to nothing for him.  (And rightfully so).  I'd rather just hold onto him for depth and/or our own reclamation project because I do think he has more talent than he's shown us this season. By himself, all he'd get back is another underachiever so there is little point.

[EdgarM]

6 hours ago, Baggins said:

Henrik, kind of the whole point I was making. Henrik wearing the C has no effect on other players playing soft or not. We've had hard hitting, agitating, scrappers with Henrik as captain (how can that be?). The problem isn't Henrik as captain it's insufficient tough, hard hitters, on the roster now. Linden as captain isn't going to suddenly make Baertschi a big hitting drop your gloves kind of player. If Horvat was going to inspire that kind of change it would have likely happened just by playing on his line this long. Just as I doubt having Horvat as captain will made Joulevi a big hitting drop your gloves kind of guy. A player either has that in him or he doesn`t.

 

Naslund was here with both Linden and Messier as captains before him. Why didn`t it change him into a hard hitting scrapper? Maybe because that simply wasn`t his game.

I don't think its just all about aggression the work ethic and "team" effort have a lot to do with it too. Read the article I submitted above(Ronning onLinden) to see what I mean. Don't even mention Messier's tenure here because he was not here to help us win a cup he was simply here to cash his cheques. 

[EdgarM]

5 hours ago, RonMexico said:

 

But Henrik isn't tough though. Only reputed tough guys can be captains, like McDavid, Toews, Stamkos, Crosby, Giroux, Zetterberg, Pavelski, Karlsson, Kopitar, etc. etc.

 

 

How many have won cups on your list leading their team? Two of nine? The effort and desire to win is obvious in players such as Toews and Crosby. I can't see their team taking nights off especially during the playoffs. It takes a special player to Captain a team to victory and I am pretty sure not every Captain in the NHL are created equal. Just saying.

[RonMexico]

4 minutes ago, EdgarM said:

How many have won cups on your list leading their team? Two of nine? The effort and desire to win is obvious in players such as Toews and Crosby. I can't see their team taking nights off especially during the playoffs. It takes a special player to Captain a team to victory and I am pretty sure not every Captain in the NHL are created equal. Just saying.

Where do the Hawks and Pens sit right now? Pens are barely in the playoff picture and the Hawks are out of it. Where is their desire to win? Their captains suck at motivating them. Oh they won Cups before, what have you done for me lately?

[EdgarM]

1 minute ago, RonMexico said:

Where do the Hawks and Pens sit right now? Pens are barely in the playoff picture and the Hawks are out of it. Where is their desire to win? Their captains suck at motivating them. Oh they won Cups before, what have you done for me lately?

How many Cups did Gretzky  win after he left Edmonton?.....................................................You get my point? 

[RonMexico]

21 minutes ago, EdgarM said:

How many Cups did Gretzky  win after he left Edmonton?.....................................................You get my point? 

Unsure of relevance.

[EdgarM]

3 minutes ago, RonMexico said:

Unsure of relevance.

A Captain is not going to win a cup EVERY YEAR. None of your list of Captains Won a cup other then Toews and Crosby so what is your point you are trying to make? Most NHL Captains are not "Gentlemanly".

[TheGuardian_]

On ‎1‎/‎15‎/‎2018 at 2:15 PM, linden17 said:

quit beating a dead horse. Tanking is pathetic and no respectful team does it. Drives me nuts when people say this. We aren't exactly climbing the standings as is right now. why inflict a losing attitude upon our young guys? Given the way the draft lottery goes, what makes you think we are getting the number one overall with your method?

I am sorry but what part of losing two games for every one you win is forming a  "winning attitude"? I tell what is happening here, the Sedins are showing how to be professional while losing games. The kids, all two/three of them are learning to play regardless of the score, that the game is just like primary school sports day, you get the ribbon for participating, in this case, the money. The professionalism is in taking the losses and not letting them overwhelm them, learning to deal with media questions and go with the flow.

 

The coach shows the young guys that once you have "the contract" it is okay to slide, take games off and not be held responsible, have the contract and the guaranteed ice time or play every game. Erkisson one goal in half the season?