aGENT Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 13 minutes ago, jmahyoung said: If it's a toss-up between Hutton/Stecher/Biega and Juolevi, I think we just have to go with Juolevi right now. Give him at least 9 games. We have to see what we've got to work with. And the other guys have already gotten a year or more in the NHL. Let him show us what he brings to the team. He's not a Junior player, '9 games' means nothing. He'll be perfectly fine playing part of the season in Utica and getting recalls with injuries/after moving MDZ etc at the TDL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bloodycanuckleheads Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 3 hours ago, aGENT said: I'd hate to be your contractor if you ever built a house. Barely got the foundation, studs and roof up and you're complaining about how drafty it is. To go with your analogy... For the first 2 or 3 years, Benning said the house didn't need to be rebuilt - it was just a coat of paint away from being a mansion - despite the fact that the wood was all rotten, it was infested with rats and termites, the plumming was backing up raw sewage into the basement, the government put a lein on the entire project, a sinkhole opened up in the backyard, and there was a 10 foot gaping hole in the roof. At least now he understands there's a problem with the place... Benning's job is literally to see the big-picture - and he has shown a complete inability to do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 1 minute ago, bloodycanuckleheads said: To go with your analogy... For the first 2 or 3 years, Benning said the house didn't need to be rebuilt - Nope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Crossbar Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 9 minutes ago, aGENT said: As long as we look more like COL last season in year 2 or 3 of his current extension, than COL 2 years ago in year 2 or 3, he's fine IMO. Call that whatever kind of 'ice' you like. By year 3, the ice should be ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob_Zepp Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 7 minutes ago, bloodycanuckleheads said: To go with your analogy... For the first 2 or 3 years, Benning said the house didn't need to be rebuilt - it was just a coat of paint away from being a mansion - despite the fact that the wood was all rotten, it was infested with rats and termites, the plumming was backing up raw sewage into the basement, the government put a lein on the entire project, a sinkhole opened up in the backyard, and there was a 10 foot gaping hole in the roof. At least now he understands there's a problem with the place... Benning's job is literally to see the big-picture - and he has shown a complete inability to do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bloodycanuckleheads Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 5 minutes ago, aGENT said: Nope. For someone who posts endlessly around here, you sure don't seem to remember recent Canucks history very well. Where to even begin? Let's see, you have the Linden quote where he specifically says they haven't been able to rebuild because that would be unfair to the Sedins. And, the whole 'rebuild on the fly' thing (to avoid an actual rebuild). Oh, and the first couple years where Benning said the team was great and could compete with the best teams in the league. Quote 'Even though our record right now is not where we want it to be, I think once we get healthy we’ll be OK.' - Jim Benning That was 3 years ago. Quote The general idea seems to be that the Canucks need to rebuild, while the management team seems insistent on moving in a different direction, making moves that conflict with a rebuild and show them to be a confused bunch. Oh look, Benning wasn't rebuilding 2 years ago. Also from 2016: Quote On the radio today, Benning – a former protege of current Oilers GM Peter Chiarelli – said that his goal this year is the same it’s been since the summer. He wants to ice a competitive roster, while also giving the youth a chance to develop and grow. Benning in 2016: 'What we said is our goal every year is try to be competitive and make the playoffs.' Benning in 2015: ' Our goal is to develop young players in a winning environment, to make the playoffs, and ultimately we want to compete and win the Stanley Cup.' From 2015: Quote However, the three men said the Canucks will continue with a retool on the fly, and not go into rebuild mode, when they met the media for an end-of-season debrief on Wednesday. While not a quote from Benning, this little bit from the Hockey News sums it up rather nicely and deserves quoting here: Quote Half measures are exactly what we’ve seen from a Vancouver Canucks squad trying to straddle the line between playoff contender and rebuilder for the past few seasons. Benning’s tenure started off looking like he was committed to full measures. He dealt veteran center Ryan Kesler to the Anaheim Ducks on draft day 2014 for center Nick Bonino, defenseman Luca Sbisa and an additional selection in the first round. In the first 36 picks of the draft, the Canucks loaded up with right winger Jake Virtanen, center Jared McCann and goaltender Thatcher Demko. Having drafted Bo Horvat the year prior using a pick acquired for Cory Schneider, the Canucks appeared committed to starting things over and building the franchise the right way. But what looked like a full measure was revealed as a half measure just days after the 2014 draft, when the Canucks completely contradicted their team vision in free agency. They dropped $10 million over two years to ink right winger Radim Vrbata, and they threw $18 million over three years at goaltender Ryan Miller. And so began a series of odd, conflicting decisions over the next few seasons. I won’t list them all, as I’ve done it before, but when the same team (a) re-signs Derek Dorsett long-term, (b) trades Kevin Bieksa, (c) trades for Brandon Sutter, (d) trades Eddie Lack, (e) trades Zack Kassian, (f) trades McCann, (g) keeps youngsters like Virtanen in the NHL and (f) does not trade Vrbata or Dan Hamhuis at the 2016 deadline, then also doesn’t re-sign them…wow. Just wow. See a pattern there? You shouldn’t. There is none. It’s virtually impossible to understand the franchise’s plan. Making things worse this summer: signing coveted unrestricted free agent right winger Loui Eriksson to a six-year, $36 million contract that extends to just before his 37th birthday. It was an especially troublesome deal because, at least to those outside the Canucks organization, this ship had a massive hole in its hull. Most media outlets, including us, picked the Canucks to contend for the No. 1 overall pick in the 2017 draft. Their strange mix of aging veterans, such as Daniel and Henrik Sedin, and not-ready-for-prime-time kids like Virtanen just wasn’t working. Adding an anchor in the form of Eriksson’s contract was a disastrous move. The Canucks were the last team that should’ve pursued such a deal. What’s happened here is an internal conflict: an organization nowhere near ready to contend for a Stanley Cup has a GM evidently making moves to keep the team just competitive enough to save his job. Vancouver’s 2014-15 playoff appearance was almost a curse in that it perpetuated the misguided idea that this team was going somewhere. You can’t be truly competitive and remake an organization properly. The Toronto Maple Leafs took years to figure this out. They were a laughing stock at the end of John Ferguson Jr.’s tenure as GM and for much of Brian Burke’s and Dave Nonis’ reign. Only when they stopped trying to limp along with veterans did they start building something other franchises can actually envy. It was the “pain” coach Mike Babcock talked about. Trading away Phil Kessel, the franchise’s best player for close to a decade? That’s what you call a full measure. The reward was a terrible season, more lottery balls than any other team, and Mr. Auston Matthews. So, you can pretend that Benning wanted to rebuild from Day 1, but that's just not true. He didn't actually start rebuilding until just before the 2017 trade-deadline. Before then, he was trying to compete. Delusionally. 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Kootenay Gold Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 2 hours ago, EdgarM said: Jim Benning: JB is not perfect and I think he has some pluses and minuses. Drafting and finding young talent - A+, Trades - C+, FA signings - C- . I think his lack of knowledge or being able to work with the other GM's gives him a disadvantage in this respect. I think he has had opportunities where GM's are looking at some of our vets(Tanev, Hamhuis) and he has not been able to come up with some sort deal that will work for both parties. The consensus with FA's is the ones he acquires do not produce and they get overpaid. I think this is a year where his projects must show their worth, some of the prospects show they belong, and some FA's need to show their worth(Gagner,Ericksson). With the Sedins gone, this will have to be the year that JB's team starts to show promise of what this team is to become. Not so much as to make the playoffs but should show some kind of improvement over the last couple of years. Nikolay Goldobin: He is a reclamation project as others have already given up on him. He is not a well rounded player but he is still fairly young and has talent. I think this will be his last year to show he can stick or he will be passed on like others before him and someone else will be afforded the opportunity. I think with players such as him and others(Grabner,Yakupov) is their inconsistencies. Having the commitment for 60 minutes, 82 games has to be part of your game if you are to survive playing in the NHL. Logjam at forward? Defense? The logjam I see is in the middle of the road players and if we have to lose some of these guys then so be it. As others have said" the cream rises to the top" and the rest will be discarded for better players to come along. I would rather have the "hungry" players anyway and the "entitled" ones can move along to another team. I find your assessment of JB to be on the mark and hopefully as he gains experience as a GM his track record on trades and acquisitions improves. The two year extension should give TL and the Aquillini family a better body of evidence to evaluate him on. This team must make the playoffs; if not this year, then most certainly next year. As for Goldy and a few other middling players, they had better bring it in camp and throughout the year or the team should be moving on from them. Not much point in keeping has been's and / or never were's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 6 minutes ago, bloodycanuckleheads said: For someone who posts endlessly around here, you sure don't seem to remember recent Canucks history very well. Where to even begin? Let's see, you have the Linden quote where he specifically says they haven't been able to rebuild because that would be unfair to the Sedins. And, the whole 'rebuild on the fly' thing (to avoid an actual rebuild). Oh, and the first couple years where Benning said the team was great and could compete with the best teams in the league. That was 3 years ago. Oh look, Benning wasn't rebuilding 2 years ago. Also from 2016: Benning in 2016: 'What we said is our goal every year is try to be competitive and make the playoffs.' Benning in 2015: ' Our goal is to develop young players in a winning environment, to make the playoffs, and ultimately we want to compete and win the Stanley Cup.' From 2015: While not a quote from Benning, this little bit from the Hockey News sums it up rather nicely and deserves quoting here: So, you can pretend that Benning wanted to rebuild from Day 1, but that's just not true. He didn't actually start rebuilding until just before the 2017 trade-deadline. Before then, he was trying to compete. Delusionally. A+ for effort but unfortunately... http://lmgtfy.com/?q=not+mutually+exclusive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bloodycanuckleheads Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 I didn't expect you to admit that you're wrong. You never do... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 Just now, bloodycanuckleheads said: I didn't expect you to admit that you're wrong. You never do... I don't expect you to understand that he could both rebuild the team while also attempting to prop up the existing team as that would require non simplified, non black and white, non reductive thinking. Again: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=not+mutually+exclusive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bloodycanuckleheads Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 I like how, when you quoted me, this quote magically disappeared: Quote However, the three men said the Canucks will continue with a retool on the fly, and not go into rebuild mode, when they met the media for an end-of-season debrief on Wednesday. Now, I wonder why you would drop the quote where Benning specifically says he wasn't rebuilding? Oh right, because that quote destroys your whole position... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildcam Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 5 hours ago, thejazz97 said: Gaunce and Gagner go on waivers, Archibald probably as well. Nilsson waived/claimed or traded. Think our lineups end up looking like this: Loui Eriksson - Bo Horvat - Brock Boeser Sven Baertschi - Elias Pettersson - Nikolay Goldobin Brendan Leipsic - Brandon Sutter - Jake Virtanen Granlund - Beagle - Antoine Roussel Tim Schaller Quinn Hughes/Derrick Pouliot - Chris Tanev Alex Edler - Troy Stecher Derrick Pouliot/Erik Gudbranson - Michael Del Zotto Erik Gudbranson, Ben Hutton Markstrom Demko And AHL: Reid Boucher - Brendan Gaunce - Lukas Jasek Jonathan Dahlén - Tanner Kero - Adam Gaudette Carter Bancks - Wacey Hamilton - Tyler Motte Tanner MacMaster - Joe Labate - Zack MacEwen Michael Carcone, Alexis D'Aoust Ashton Sautner - Guillaume Brisebois Jalen Chatfield - Olli Juolevi Alex Biega - Evan McEneny Dylan Blujus Richard Bachman Ivan Kulbakov You forgot Kole Lind on the AHL team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 4 minutes ago, bloodycanuckleheads said: I like how, when you quoted me, this quote magically disappeared: Now, I wonder why you would drop the quote where Benning specifically says he wasn't rebuilding? Oh right, because that quote destroys your whole position... Probably because anything that you have in quotes gets removed by the forum software when I quote you. #conspiracy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bloodycanuckleheads Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 Yes, I know that. I just wanted to give you yet another opportunity to ignore the quote that proves you wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanadianRugby Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 5 hours ago, Mike Vanderhoek said: Jim Benning: Benning has greatly improved the teams overall depth and quality of youth I just don't see how he'd be on a short leash. If you're a fan of Benning that's cool, he's done things that are good however you have to see the other people's point of view. - Benning came in with a plan to keep the team competitive and instead we've been the worst team in the league over the last 3 years. - It's hard not to improve youth when you take over a team that is at the end of their cycle and have been trading picks away to go for it. Also since the team stinks he's picking high in every round. I don't know if he's on thin ice or not, I don't know what the owner is thinking. Hughes/Pettersson will probably determine that. However, it wouldn't be surprising if he's fired after another terrible season or a bad start 2 seasons from now. How many bottom 5 finishes until we're the next Oilers? 5 hours ago, Mike Vanderhoek said: Nikolay Goldobin: have heard more than a few times and again just now how little Goldobin is viewed even now how he is the Canucks reclamation project who maybe gets flipped for a 4th ir 5th round pick ?!? sorry what? I mean the guy was a 1st round pick, has shown slick skill, speed, and finish. Has spent time in the organization learning the defensive side of the game as well. 22 years old and a scorer's touch that will need scoring. How is he a reclamation project? If anything in a contract year, opportunity to play an offensive role, this reclamation project could pot 20 goals and make some defense look silly doing it. We saw flashes of this last year. Again, scratch my head when I hear project. Who cares if he's a 1st round pick. Yakupov was a 1st overall pick, 24 years old and now in the KHL. Goldobin has done nothing in the NHL and you're crazy overrating him. Hopefully he still develops but as of right now he has little value. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 Just now, bloodycanuckleheads said: Yes, I know that. I just wanted to give you yet another opportunity to ignore the quote that proves you wrong. You do realize that that's merely a 'marketing statement'? And from that very article: Quote But the team's brain trust says it's also aware of the need to continue injecting youth into an aging roster as it attempts to negotiate the tricky route of developing players while at the same time staying competitive. "We're trying to win. We're trying to make the playoffs," said Trevor Linden, the president of hockey operations. "We're going to do everything we can to do that. Having said that, we have a firm eye on the future. We've got to do the right things. We're going to continue to integrate young players into our lineup." But let's just ignore the statements that refute your pre (and ill) conceived notions, never mind the mountains of prospects creating the very 'log jam of forwards' this thread is concerned with. Clearly they haven't been rebuilding this whole time because, derp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canucksnihilist Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 Of interest is Goldobin and Leipsic - they require waivers if sent down. Make or break the team or trade? So keep them? Then add the 3 new FAs who aren’t going anywhere regardless of how they play... then EP, Horvat, Boeser, Dahlen, Gaudette, Virtanen, cole Cassels - all of who should be on the team or have a super good chance to make a team. and that hat leaves no room for eriksson, Baer, Gagner, Gaunce, Granlund.... so they will be traded or waived. Except thats not happening. So Dahlen Gaudette cassels can all just go to the minors no matter what. Anyways Goldobin and liepsic. How these players are treated will really tell us a lot about how this team “makes room”. Will be fun to see how they deal with it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 2 minutes ago, canucksnihilist said: Of interest is Goldobin and Leipsic - they require waivers if sent down. Make or break the team or trade? So keep them? Then add the 3 new FAs who aren’t going anywhere regardless of how they play... then EP, Horvat, Boeser, Dahlen, Gaudette, Virtanen, cole Cassels - all of who should be on the team or have a super good chance to make a team. and that hat leaves no room for eriksson, Baer, Gagner, Gaunce, Granlund.... so they will be traded or waived. Except thats not happening. So Dahlen Gaudette cassels can all just go to the minors no matter what. Anyways Goldobin and liepsic. How these players are treated will really tell us a lot about how this team “makes room”. Will be fun to see how they deal with it! All it will tell us is whether they're good enough to make the team or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bloodycanuckleheads Posted July 18, 2018 Share Posted July 18, 2018 2 minutes ago, aGENT said: You do realize that that's merely a 'marketing statement'? And from that very article: Yeah, 'the three men said ______ [at this location]' totally sounds like a marketing statement and not reporting of what the three men said (by the Globe and Mail no less)! Sure. And, I like how your quote contains things like 'We're trying to win. We're trying to make the playoffs. We're going to do everything we can to do that' and then pretending that it supports your belief that Benning was rebuilding from the start! Just brilliant! Cognitive-dissonance much? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canucksnihilist Posted July 18, 2018 Share Posted July 18, 2018 1 minute ago, aGENT said: All it will tell us is whether they're good enough to make the team or not. It’s not that simple. An over simplification doesn’t work in this case. Some factors: If they are given a chance to really make the team or not.... and if they do actually make the team if they deserve it or are waived anyways, etc. The puck stops here for this “make room” argument Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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