*Buzzsaw* Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 First of all... I am not one of those guys on this forum who endlessly complains about Virtanen being a Canuck pick and how we should have taken someone else. I think he has huge potential... its just frustrating to see it not developing. Yeah he is having a good season, getting career bests, yadda yadda... I will come out and say it: I think Jake Virtanen has all the physical skills that Bo Horvat has, and maybe more. He should be as good a player as Bo. He should be putting up points comparable to Bo. He has even better acceleration and speed. He has a little more size and hits harder. He's quite possibly a better defensive player and better in his own zone. He has just as good a shot. If you look at the goals Jake scores, many of them are from difficult angles and with the goaltender prepared... but he scores anyway because he has an accurate heavy shot... look at the goal he scored on Nilsson in the Ottawa game. Almost all his goals are scored from the periphery... in fact that is the key to Jake's failure to live up to his potential... he is a peripheral player. He is a 6' 1" 220 lb, top 5 fastest skater in the league PERIPHERAL player. What's the difference between Jake and Bo? Bo has drive. Bo is aggressive. Bo is fearless. Bo will challenge the opposition. Bo will take the puck to the net.... All qualities which Jake doesn't have or actions which Jake won't take. Why not??? It seems to me Jake has a problem with self confidence... he doesn't believe his own strength and abilities. And he doesn't have the courage to challenge the opposition and himself to raise the stakes and go for it. He also won't back up his own physical play... and that is bad for the team. In the Ottawa game he made a cheap hit, and then instead of manning up and fighting, he backed down. What was the result? Sautner and Pettersson became the target of the Sens and got cheapshots directed their way. I think the Canucks have a player who could be a real force in the league... if he wakes up and realizes he needs to change his style of play. If he doesn't, he will always be a peripheral player and an underachiever. Its the job of the coaching staff to challenge him and to make him understand he needs to change his game if he really wants to achieve his potential. ---- Fire away Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KyoNami Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 Would it really be the job of the coaching staff? If what you are saying is indeed the case, it's more of an issue he has to sort out himself. You can't teach passion or drive. That being said, I think the Jake we've seen this season is still developing, taking good steps to become a solid top 6 forward on our team. Also, he's a winger and has been out for quite a bit of the season. That surely has an impact on his point totals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
189lb enforcers? Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 I like the kid’s heavy game and grit, but he has as much hockey sense as a bag of pucks. If he wasn’t such a high first rounder, I wouldn’t even care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nuxfanabroad Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 Drop him into the BroonGoon's lineup(God forbid), & he'd likely transform into Neely 2.0, But they've got Chara(& a couple other heavies) with a pack mentality. So if we're patient here..perhaps some day we've got MacEwen, Tryamkin, & one or two more nasty types. He needs to run with such a pack. Otherwise he'll get hurt, if he's about the only guy on the team playing with a hard edge(becomes a magnet for other goons' attn). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canucksnhl Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 All good points and true. But almost all of the top power forwards in the league take 3+ years to develop into top 6 or at least produce at a top 6 rate. Simmonds 3 years Wheeler 5 years Lee 3-5 years Barkov 3 years Stone 2-3 years Wilson 6 years The few exceptions are franchise players who are captains of their respective teams: - Ovechkin - Kopitar - Getzlaf Virtanen will be just fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coryberg Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 46 minutes ago, 189lb enforcers? said: I like the kid’s heavy game and grit, but he has as much hockey sense as a bag of pucks. If he wasn’t such a high first rounder, I wouldn’t even care. Looking back at that draft there isn't much to write home about past the top 3. Here is #4-12's current output this season.... #4=Sam Bennett 69 games 12g 26p #5=Micheal Dal Colle 23 games 2g 5p #6=Jake Virtanen 64 games 14g 24p #7=Haydn Fleury 17 games 0g 1p #8=William Nylander 46 games 5g 23p #9=Nikolaj Ehlers 53 games 19g 35p #10=Nick Ritchie 57 games 9g 31p #11=Kevin Fiala 75 games 12g 37p #12=Brendan Perlini 59 games 13g 20p Jake is right there with these guys, heck he is 2nd in goals despite missing 10 games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canuck73_3 Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 1 minute ago, coryberg said: Looking back at that draft there isn't much to write home about past the top 3. Here is #4-12's current output this season.... #4=Sam Bennett 69 games 12g 26p #5=Micheal Dal Colle 23 games 2g 5p #6=Jake Virtanen 64 games 14g 24p #7=Haydn Fleury 17 games 0g 1p #8=William Nylander 46 games 5g 23p #9=Nikolaj Ehlers 53 games 19g 35p #10=Nick Ritchie 57 games 9g 31p #11=Kevin Fiala 75 games 12g 37p #12=Brendan Perlini 59 games 13g 20p Jake is right there with these guys, heck he is 2nd in goals despite missing 10 games. Ehlers and Nylander being playoff ghosts. Only players in hindsight that would have been worth taking over Jake would be Fiala and maybe Ritchie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hairy Kneel Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 I like the addition of Pearson and Lievo, those boys go to the net hard and can lead/teach Jake by example. Plus I think Jake shoots better on LW. His play making is getting better though, nice pass from the side boards tonight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canuck73_3 Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 1 minute ago, The 5th Line said: If we had Ehlers, we could trade him to whoever has Virtanen ++. Problem solved Fair point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rizzuto&hatoum Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 It took Bertuzzi 5 years before he got 50 pts, 6 yrs to 55 pts, 7yrs to 85 pts. I'll give him a couple more years but that was a good point comparing him vs Bo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JesseBlue Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 two words... travis green. That is all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BowtieCanuck Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 He seems to be progressing a lot this year and seemly finding his place on this team. Jake strikes me as one of those players who will shine in the playoffs when physicality and 'missed calls' come into play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeremyCuddles Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 3 hours ago, The 5th Line said: His injuries are a concern, in Junior he ran over everybody in sight. Drafting a player with a shoulder injury and expecting him to be this big power forward is a little silly and It seems like every time Jake gets hit he gets injured. He never really played like a powerforward, he was to good of a skater to have to play like one. I'm convinced this was a ownership/linden draft pick. Benning has gone after high iq players in the first round every year. McCann, Boeser, Juolevi, Petterson, Hughes. Virtanen is the opposite. His hockey iq is low, he relies heavily on physical attributes and going from Junior to pro was a giant step for him. Any player with that type of power and speed along with good hockey sense should be able to put up massive numbers. Like you said and I think it is underrated around the league , only because we hardly ever see it, but Jake really is a top 3 skater in this league, he's a freak of nature but his hockey iq limits him so much. It's going to take a lot of time for him to figure things out. Will we have the patience? Expecting a guy that was never a powerforward to begin with to be a powerforward in the NHL is a little silly. That's like drafting Hughes and expecting him to be a Chara. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SingleThorn Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 We should get the mods to create a 'Jake Virtanen' thread in the roster section. Would be convenient ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
40Dangles Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 I w 4 hours ago, Hairy Kneel said: I like the addition of Pearson and Lievo, those boys go to the net hard and can lead/teach Jake by example. Plus I think Jake shoots better on LW. His play making is getting better though, nice pass from the side boards tonight. I was going to say the same (LW). I 'd be curious to know how many of his goals have come from his offwing this year, it seems (anecdotally) to be a majority. The kid can snipe when he gets a good angle and a good look Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tre Mac Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 6 hours ago, 189lb enforcers? said: I like the kid’s heavy game and grit, but he has as much hockey sense as a bag of pucks. If he wasn’t such a high first rounder, I wouldn’t even care. I agree, it seems this guy can't skate and chew gum at the same time but he is getting better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tre Mac Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 5 hours ago, The 5th Line said: I'm convinced this was a ownership/linden draft pick. Benning has gone after high iq players in the first round every year. McCann, Boeser, Juolevi, Petterson, Hughes. Virtanen is the opposite. His hockey iq is low, he relies heavily on physical attributes and going from Junior to pro was a giant step for him. Don't pin this on Linden. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canacks1970 Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 7 hours ago, *Buzzsaw* said: First of all... I am not one of those guys on this forum who endlessly complains about Virtanen being a Canuck pick and how we should have taken someone else. I think he has huge potential... its just frustrating to see it not developing. Yeah he is having a good season, getting career bests, yadda yadda... I will come out and say it: I think Jake Virtanen has all the physical skills that Bo Horvat has, and maybe more. He should be as good a player as Bo. He should be putting up points comparable to Bo. He has even better acceleration and speed. He has a little more size and hits harder. He's quite possibly a better defensive player and better in his own zone. He has just as good a shot. If you look at the goals Jake scores, many of them are from difficult angles and with the goaltender prepared... but he scores anyway because he has an accurate heavy shot... look at the goal he scored on Nilsson in the Ottawa game. Almost all his goals are scored from the periphery... in fact that is the key to Jake's failure to live up to his potential... he is a peripheral player. He is a 6' 1" 220 lb, top 5 fastest skater in the league PERIPHERAL player. What's the difference between Jake and Bo? Bo has drive. Bo is aggressive. Bo is fearless. Bo will challenge the opposition. Bo will take the puck to the net.... All qualities which Jake doesn't have or actions which Jake won't take. Why not??? It seems to me Jake has a problem with self confidence... he doesn't believe his own strength and abilities. And he doesn't have the courage to challenge the opposition and himself to raise the stakes and go for it. He also won't back up his own physical play... and that is bad for the team. In the Ottawa game he made a cheap hit, and then instead of manning up and fighting, he backed down. What was the result? Sautner and Pettersson became the target of the Sens and got cheapshots directed their way. I think the Canucks have a player who could be a real force in the league... if he wakes up and realizes he needs to change his style of play. If he doesn't, he will always be a peripheral player and an underachiever. Its the job of the coaching staff to challenge him and to make him understand he needs to change his game if he really wants to achieve his potential. ---- Fire away Didn't people say the same thing about Bertuzzi ? I'm not comparing to him , But he did take some time to developed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SingleThorn Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 1 minute ago, Tre Mac said: Don't pin this on Linden. The mood of the day in 2014 was 'we're too soft'.....'no more soft Swedes'......'think playoffs, not President's Trophy'. Nylander, Kapanen and Ehlers were the victims of the mood of the day. Virtanen was a Canucks need. Don't try to find a scapegoat. It was a consensus pick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
40Dangles Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 36 minutes ago, SingleThorn said: The mood of the day in 2014 was 'we're too soft'.....'no more soft Swedes'......'think playoffs, not President's Trophy'. Nylander, Kapanen and Ehlers were the victims of the mood of the day. Virtanen was a Canucks need. Don't try to find a scapegoat. It was a consensus pick. waaa waaaa waaa we didn't get our pretty dancers who disappear in the playoffs. You know why the laughs are going no where in the playoffs? you know why the toronto media are all having a meltdown? Because why? Because the leafs are a SOFT as hell team build to dance and look pretty in the regular season and entertain by scoring pretty goals. Guess what? Anyone who knows anything about hockey, understand the playoffs are a different beast, that the rules change, that size and physicality matter all of a sudden again, that you need a mix. Whine some more man, all I see is a 22 yr old kid, getting better and better in all facets of his game every year. He's had his best offensive year this year, and hasn't even touched his ceiling. Anyone who watches the goals he scores can see he's got a sniper's finish. His passing and ability to see the ice has improved this year, and yes has a way to go but he's being more patient with the puck and making good decisions. His defensive play has been his focus until this year and he's become solid in that regard. If he hadn't have been injured he could have or come close to, breaking 20 goals. Primarily from the third line guy. Give your head a shake, the kid is going to be a hell of a player for us. Anyone objective can see the strides he's taken in his game. In 2 years if he continues on this trajectory all the whiners will be cowering in their corners. I'll take Jake over those 2 pretty boys in the playoffs 10 days out of 10. http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=149178 Some nice stats to also help you calibrate the points issues dzone starts 54.8 vs offensive zone of 45.2% - clearly green is using him in a defensive role He plays more a 3rd line role than anything else Takeaways - leads the team with 48 and missed a bunch of games, only 19 giveaways, a very nice positive ratio On ice save percentage 92.5 - 6th on the team - that says he's doing a hell of a job defensively Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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