Why the Leafs won't be better than the Canucks anytime soon...

[TheRussianRocket.]

Just a little something I wanted to get out there to the general public. With the 'news' of TO being Canada's best hockey team and people thinking the Leafs are were better than the Canucks prior to Saturdays one sided spanking, here's some food for thought which debunks why the Leafs won't be winning anytime soon and aren't "Canada's best hockey team" ( )

In the new NHL today (post 04/05 lockout), for a team to win you have to build the core players or key players from within the organization that will lead you to victory. That's been the case for the vast majority of the Cup winners and runner ups since the 04/05 season and it's no secret it is the recipe for success now in todays NHL.

Yes all teams have players who didn't start their career with the organization and were acquired one way or another - via trade or free agency - and it's perfectly fine but to a certain extent. Teams that win have an obvious mix of the 2 but the core players / key players most of the time are ones who were built and bread within the organization and it's what separates them from the rest.

Key players who were built within the organization since 04/05 who helped lead their team to a Cup:

Hurricanes won with Staal, Cole, Ward; Ducks won with Getzlaf, Perry, Penner, Kunitz, McDonald, Pahlsson; Wings won with Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Lidstrom, Kronwall, Franzen, Holmstrom, Filpulla, Hudler, Osgood; Pens won with Crosby, Malkin, Staal, Letang, Goligoski, Talbot, Orpik, Scuderi, Fleury; Hawks won with Toews, Kane, Ladd, Byfuglien, Keith, Seabrook, Versteeg, Brouwer, Hjalmarsson, Bolland, Niemi/Crawford; Bruins won with Krejci, Bergeron, Marchand, Lucic, Seguin; Kings won with Kopitar, Brown, Doughty, Voynov, Quick.

As you can see, some of the teams have few player who were bread within the organization compared to others who had a lot but the point is made that you do need them in order to succeed. It's the same story with the runner ups but I won't bother posting that. With that, let's now compare the current Canucks and Leafs rosters.

The Canucks have Daniel, Henrik, Kesler, Burrows, Hansen, Edler, Bieksa, Tanev who have all been with this organization since their respective NHL careers began. They are core players on this team and it shows what percent of the roster they compose (35%!). Now let's take a look at the Leafs; they have Bozak, Kadri, Kulemin, Reimer....out of those 4, only 2 - maybe 3 - are considered core or key players currently. Bozak and Kadri are their top 2 centres which first off shows their lack of skill in that position and Reimer has his job in jeopardy with Bernier taking over and is questionable being a key player due to that. Kulemin is a versatile winger they have and after him that's it. Never added Reilly and Gardiner because they aren't key players currently.

It is pretty sad when you see that considering their top offensemen and defensman were not bread in the organization and according to the track record of recent Cup winners and runner ups, the Leafs won't be winning anytime soon at all. Kessel, Lupul, Riemsdyk, Clarskon, Bolland, Phaneuf, Franson, Bernier were all brought in via trade or free agency and they expect them to become a top contender by doing so. No way. Like I said before, it's okay to do that to a certain extent because every team does but when the best players on your team have not been molded and bread by the organization since day 1, you will not have much success. And not to mention they've completely messed up their financial stability giving players massive contracts and some who didn't deserve anything close to it, it's going to be sad as much as I hate to say it seeing a Canadian team wash away something promising they could have had. With that, even more praise for the Canucks to keep that core together and not build a team completely from free agency or trades. If it was that easy, every team would be doing it and winning. Ask the Devils how that's turned out so far with them signing all these FA's this past Summer.

Again, speaking according to the majority of times this is the case and do not question the Oilers then, because they just plain suck lol. They screwed up when they traded away all their veterans and rushed all their picks to play and left them with no guidance with lack of experienced players. Last thing I'm going to add, Leafs barely made the playoffs this past season which was half a season and they think its acceptable to throw money away now. If anyone knows, Leafs always start off good and fade away later on the season. Now that this will be a full 82 game season, don't be surprised if they miss the playoffs or barely, barely make it.

Hope this made sense and you enjoyed lol.

[Tragoedia]

$20 million on Clarkson, Kessel, and Phaneuf.

$17.1 million ($19 million next season) on Henrik, Daniel, and Kesler.

Who would you rather have on your team?

I think it's a pretty easy answer, and it's why the Leafs won't surpass the Canucks this season.

[LostViking]

Meh, the team with the best players, coaching, chemistry, and luck with injuries/schedule is the best team. It is usually easier to acquire good players by building from within, but if a team were to land good players via other means they are still just as good. It is also well known that trying to emulate current cup winners is a great way to build a team capable of winning the cup... if they could go back in time and play in the past. Teams that build in such a manner usually get left behind. Better teams are better, there is no magic formula, but generally those that think there is end up not competing for the cup.

[Moonshinefe]

Phaneuf is massively overrated, Kessel doesn't play D, Kadri doesn't play D.... Reimer is overrated, etc.

With Torts playing the Sedins on PK and improving their defensive capabilities there's really no comparison. The Sedins are higher end scorers than those guys (Kessel is up there though) and are now playing proper D.

The Leafs really need to teach their offensive stars how to play defence if they want to take the next step. Lupul does it, but he's injured constantly.

[dangler696969]

I said before, it's okay to do that to a certain extent because every team does but when the best players on your team have not been molded and bread by the organization since day 1, you will not have much success.

Stopped reading at this sentence. This statement is utter and complete garbage. The real problem is what you alluded to after that, overpaying certain players. But they didn't draft kessel, and i'd say he's doing very well for them, not severely overpaid, and one of the reasons they are a contending team.

[Webster6]

Great post OP, now do us a favor and go make an account on the Leafs message board so you can let them know as well!

[Warhippy]

Why won't the Leafs be better can be summed up as follows.

Cap estimate raise maximum of $4.2 million.

current Leafs cap is pushing max.

Kessel $8 million contract extension kicks in.

Phanuef demanding $7 million plus

This adds $3 million to their current cap give or take a few hundred thousand while having 5 of 6 Defensemen in need of RFA QO's or UFA contracts.

This also leaves Raymond Bolland and 3 other forwards without QO's or UFA contracts.

The only possible option is a trade of John Micheal Liles and NOBODY was lining up to do the Leafs and Nonis any favours. nor will the likely do this in the off season knowing the Leafs have some decent gritty forwards and passable defencemen on the rise that could be had for cheap.

Even IF someone took JML off of the Leafs hands it would be contract for contract.

Why won't the Leafs surpass the canucks anytime soon you ask?

because according to Nonis 2+2 ='s potatoe and that is bad cap math

[CatsPajamas]

Why won't the Leafs be better can be summed up as follows.

Cap estimate raise maximum of $4.2 million.

current Leafs cap is pushing max.

Kessel $8 million contract extension kicks in.

Phanuef demanding $7 million plus

This adds $3 million to their current cap give or take a few hundred thousand while having 5 of 6 Defensemen in need of RFA QO's or UFA contracts.

This also leaves Raymond Bolland and 3 other forwards without QO's or UFA contracts.

The only possible option is a trade of John Micheal Liles and NOBODY was lining up to do the Leafs and Nonis any favours. nor will the likely do this in the off season knowing the Leafs have some decent gritty forwards and passable defencemen on the rise that could be had for cheap.

Even IF someone took JML off of the Leafs hands it would be contract for contract.

Why won't the Leafs surpass the canucks anytime soon you ask?

because according to Nonis 2+2 ='s potatoe and that is bad cap math

There is a rumor that Ottawa is interested in JML and they could also amnesty buy out him in the offseason.

[oldnews]

It starts with their overpaid 'leadership' group - Phaneuf and Kessel - two of the NHL's most over-rated players, both of whom suffer from regular lapses and vacancies - which leads to the question of the quality of their 'leadership'.

Their blueline is wanting and lacks depth.

Their prospect pool is uninspiriing - their best young players are on their roster and aside from them, they don't have much in terms of NHL ready talent - surprising given how bad they were for so long.

They are in a very precarious contract, expiring contract, cap space, asset management position. They're also spending money like teenagers who just got their allowance.

They are a terrible puck possession team - ignore corsi, fenwick, possession all you want - theirs is not a convincing winning formula.

They have a hell of a lot of work to do to sustain their recent success, let alone pretend to succeed the Canucks.

[Ghostsof1915]

As Warhippy pointed out. The contracts alone are the reason Toronto long term is going to get bit by the Kessel trade.

Yes Seguin is on Dallas right now.

But what they gave up for a star winger.

A centre who is 21, signed for $5.75 until 2018-19 who is 4 points off Kessel's point totals

A defenseman who is 20 years old, pushing 20 minutes a night, with 4 points and +4, signed an entry level contract for two more years.

A winger prospect in Knight who's 21, also on a rookie contract for 2 more years, with 5 points in 10 games in the AHL.

I'm glad it worked out technically for both teams. But long term, those two firsts and a second for Kessel. Not good.

[Moonshinefe]

As Warhippy pointed out. The contracts alone are the reason Toronto long term is going to get bit by the Kessel trade.

Yes Seguin is on Dallas right now.

But what they gave up for a star winger.

A centre who is 21, signed for $5.75 until 2018-19 who is 4 points off Kessel's point totals

A defenseman who is 20 years old, pushing 20 minutes a night, with 4 points and +4, signed an entry level contract for two more years.

A winger prospect in Knight who's 21, also on a rookie contract for 2 more years, with 5 points in 10 games in the AHL.

I'm glad it worked out technically for both teams. But long term, those two firsts and a second for Kessel. Not good.

See I'm not quite convinced. Seguin is a brilliant player, but for the Leafs, they needed a top scorer *right now*. They got that in Phil Kessel. Sure the guy isn't a great 2 way player, but there's no doubt he's an elite goal scorer in the NHL. You have to remember the Leafs have been bottom of the basement for years, they made a bold move to dig their way out of there and took it.

[Warhippy]

There is a rumor that Ottawa is interested in JML and they could also amnesty buy out him in the offseason.

Ottawa COULD buy him out yes but why would they. Toronto couldn't they're out of amnesty buyouts.

Gilbert from Florida (?) is a much better fit for Ottawa's defensive needs as scoring for them from the blue line isn't an issue. Tanev or Stanton in our group is also a much better fit.

Again as I said I do not see ANYONE let alone a divisional opponent lining up for an aging John Michael Liles with a cap hit over $4 million. Toronto already attempted to go that route.

Weber is a cheap stop gap but again Ottawa is looking for genuine forward help, not forwards masquerading as defensemen.

[elvis15]

There is a rumor that Ottawa is interested in JML and they could also amnesty buy out him in the offseason.

No they can't. They used both their buyouts this past summer on Komisarek and Grabovski. That wouldn't stop them from using a regular buyout, but then they'd still have the residual cap hit to worry about.

[elvis15]

See I'm not quite convinced. Seguin is a brilliant player, but for the Leafs, they needed a top scorer *right now*. They got that in Phil Kessel. Sure the guy isn't a great 2 way player, but there's no doubt he's an elite goal scorer in the NHL. You have to remember the Leafs have been bottom of the basement for years, they made a bold move to dig their way out of there and took it.

"They needed" is the key phrase there. It still didn't turn them into a playoff team, and they'd likely look much better now with Seguin and Hamilton adding to their other young stars in Kadri, Gardiner and Rielly. Add to that a core of Lupul, Clarkson and JVR as well as Phaneuf, Gunnarson and Franson, plus Reimer and Bernier, and they'd be better off than masking their issues as they currently stand with the instant gratification of the Kessel deal.

[Moonshinefe]

"They needed" is the key phrase there. It still didn't turn them into a playoff team, and they'd likely look much better now with Seguin and Hamilton adding to their other young stars in Kadri, Gardiner and Rielly. Add to that a core of Lupul, Clarkson and JVR as well as Phaneuf, Gunnarson and Franson, plus Reimer and Bernier, and they'd be better off than masking their issues as they currently stand with the instant gratification of the Kessel deal.

Yeah I don't disagree really, I was just pointing out that at the time, they were desperate to turn the team into a playoff team after years of bottom of the basement, so they went for a pure goal scorer. They got him. So I agree in the long term they could very have been better off with Seguin and crew, I also thought they weren't out of line in their reasoning.

[Warhippy]

"They needed" is the key phrase there. It still didn't turn them into a playoff team, and they'd likely look much better now with Seguin and Hamilton adding to their other young stars in Kadri, Gardiner and Rielly. Add to that a core of Lupul, Clarkson and JVR as well as Phaneuf, Gunnarson and Franson, plus Reimer and Bernier, and they'd be better off than masking their issues as they currently stand with the instant gratification of the Kessel deal.

100% agreed, it fell into Burkes must have splash newsmaker mode. he has done it basically every single team he has ever been in charge of. Gets the job first few seasons makes a major move.

Seguin is going to be a significant star in this league once he grows into his own, Hamilton is already trending into a solid top 4 if not future top 2 D man.

Kessel handcuffed the team demanding more money to sign an extension. Burke didn't have to make the trade he could have waited out Chiarhelli and gotten a much better deal but didn't.

His loss, Bostons gain (and a cup to boot)

[oldnews]

See I'm not quite convinced. Seguin is a brilliant player, but for the Leafs, they needed a top scorer *right now*. They got that in Phil Kessel. Sure the guy isn't a great 2 way player, but there's no doubt he's an elite goal scorer in the NHL. You have to remember the Leafs have been bottom of the basement for years, they made a bold move to dig their way out of there and took it.

The Leafs could sure use an outstanding young two way center and a teenager who managed to make the Bruins blueline - pretty much as certain a future top 4 as prospects come.

Kessel is an over-rated one trick pony - hockey is a two way game. I'd deal him in a heartbeat for Seguin alone (who has 15 points in 14 games btw - a 21 yr old with over 150 NHL points...) - if I'm the Leafs, and spend the rest of his cap hit on adding some depth to their shallow blueline (then again, Dougie Hamilton would look pretty damn good in that sense, and his ELC would fit nicely as well).

[TOMapleLaughs]

Nonis made big moves to make a big push this season. Time will tell whether that was a mistake, but right now it certainly doesn't look good for them up the middle. Hey, unless Kadri blossoms into an effective 2-way force.

[Moonshinefe]

The Leafs could sure use an outstanding young two way center and a teenager who managed to make the Bruins blueline - pretty much as certain a future top 4 as prospects come.

Kessel is an over-rated one trick pony - hockey is a two way game. I'd deal him in a heartbeat for Seguin alone (who has 15 points in 14 games btw - a 21 yr old with over 150 NHL points...) - if I'm the Leafs, and spend the rest of his cap hit on adding some depth to their shallow blueline (then again, Dougie Hamilton would look pretty damn good in that sense, and his ELC would fit nicely as well).

Well hindsight is certainly 20/20. If you were in the biggest hockey market, your job was on the line, and you didn't fortune tell how prospects would turn out.... wouldn't you have pulled the trigger? At the end of the day, if things don't improve, you lose your job.

[Moonshinefe]

Nonis made big moves to make a big push this season. Time will tell whether that was a mistake, but right now it certainly doesn't look good for them up the middle. Hey, unless Kadri blossoms into an effective 2-way force.

This team rests and dies on Lupul. If Lupul is healthy, they contend. If not, they don't.