[Official] Toronto Blue Jays Major League Baseball thread

[oldnews]

It must have been a real boost in the locker room to hear that the Jays added arms like Liriano and Benoit.  Oh yeah, and Feldman (and Bolsinger)..

 

Have to consider the Atkins/Shapiro effort a fail at this point.

 

Liriano is currently a project.  The idea that Martin catching him will restore his control is questionable at best.  Comfort/confidence in your catcher and liking his game-calling is great and all, but whether that will enable Liriano to hit his spots is another matter imo.  The fact they're willing to bank on that risk is disconcerting.  Unless they have some solid intel regarding his delivery, mechanics or some tangible indicator that they can tweak his game, it's the equivalent of a depth move when they're losing a premier starter to the bullpen. 

 

In any event, I absolutely loathe the decision to "save" Sanchez - and bringing in Liriano doesn't exactly enhance the sales job.

 

WTF are you "saving" Sanchez for?  The future?   How does bullpenning him save him from the risk of injury?   

Don't buy their line of reasoning at all - nor the counter-intuitive timing of it.

 

When is the next time the Toronto Blue Jays are going to have a lineup with the kind of punch that Bautista, EE, Donaldson, Tulo, Saunders et al bring?

Solid enough defensively with Martin, Tulo, Pillar up the middle.

 

But desperately need what Sanchez brings to the rotation imo (particularly considering what little else Atkins/Shapiro have done to strengthen the rotation), otherwise, wadr to Estrada, Stroman, Happ, there just isn't enough there in Sanchez's absence imo to have the championship potential that the lineup otherwise screams for.

Tremendous opportunity - with a mediocre management approach.

 

Oh well - I suppose Toronto is the type of city that will buy tickets regardless of how incompetent their management groups are.  Decades of pathetic, AHL quality Leafs teams have proven that you can sell any loser in that fanbase.   I suppose Rogers knows this - and with 40,000 showing up, meh, why bother going all in?

 

Is that true of the Bluejay's fans as well, or are fans just unwilling to get off the ride quite yet as there remain so many remnants of last year's contender?

 

What I do know - if I were in that locker room - if I were one of JB, EE, Tulo, JD - I'd be unimpressed with the combination of their deadline deals and the Sanchez decision.  Longer term, who knows (the prospect pick ups are nice, but this aint a rebuild), but shorter term is what matters to these guys, and if the best you can do is bring in a risky, struggling Liriano?

 

The Atkins/Shapiro effort thus far imo has been a Happ and Grilli away from abject failure.    Selling the flips of Chavez and Storen as addition by subtraction doesn't exactly impress under the circumstances.

 

Hopefully they gain some sense and realize that Sanchez in the rotation makes them respectable.  I suppose they can experiment with Liriano and see what happens, but here's that thing - if it isn't broke, don't fn fix it.  

 

 

[Miss Korea Bob.Loblaw]

39 minutes ago, oldnews said:

 

 

Oh well - I suppose Toronto is the type of city that will buy tickets regardless of how incompetent their management groups are.  Decades of pathetic, AHL quality Leafs teams have proven that you can sell any loser in that fanbase.   I suppose Rogers knows this - and with 40,000 showing up, meh, why bother going all in?

 

Is that true of the Bluejay's fans as well, or are fans just unwilling to get off the ride quite yet as there remain so many remnants of last year's contender?

 

It is the remnants of last year.  If the Yankees and Red Sox ever get their act together and start controlling the AL East again, people will stop watching the loser Blue Jays.  When Baltimore was trash, nobody went to their games.  Now that Tampa is trash, nobody is going to their games now.  Toronto has been the same and will be the same.

[Standing_Tall#37]

6 hours ago, Bob.Loblaw said:

It is the remnants of last year.  If the Yankees and Red Sox ever get their act together and start controlling the AL East again, people will stop watching the loser Blue Jays.  When Baltimore was trash, nobody went to their games.  Now that Tampa is trash, nobody is going to their games now.  Toronto has been the same and will be the same.

Could be worse... They could be like the Mariners that are currently wasting Hernadez's prime years.

[Standing_Tall#37]

I think Lariano has huge potential to succeed here. In baseball analytics actually matter... Look at his % of groundballs...

 

i think Donaldson,Tulo and Travis will help his overall success.

 Much better than Kang, Mercer and Harrison in Pittsburgh. 

[Fantomex]

4 minutes ago, Standing_Tall#37 said:

I think Lariano has huge potential to succeed here. In baseball analytics actually matter... Look at his % of groundballs...

 

i think Donaldson,Tulo and Travis will help his overall success.

 Much better than Kang, Mercer and Harrison in Pittsburgh. 

I agree, analytics. You know that stat that suggests Sanchez has been on of the most efficient starters in all of baseball this year? And that other one that says he allows the least amount of runs in the AL... Yea.. Analytics. 

 

You seem to be quite knowledgeable with the game of Baseball, so tell me your true opinion on moving Sanchez to the pen. Is it really that likely a pitcher gets hurt without any sign of fatigue? Even Martin voiced his confusion and dislike of the idea, and I would think the guy who has been his catcher all season would have a pretty good feel for the situation.  

[Standing_Tall#37]

6 hours ago, Bob.Loblaw said:

It is the remnants of last year.  If the Yankees and Red Sox ever get their act together and start controlling the AL East again, people will stop watching the loser Blue Jays.  When Baltimore was trash, nobody went to their games.  Now that Tampa is trash, nobody is going to their games now.  Toronto has been the same and will be the sam

[Wilbur]

If it was as simple as showing signs of fatigue I would like to think Sanchez wouldn't be moved to the pen soon..  I do wonder if Syndergaard showed any signs of fatigue last year when he was throwing all those innings.  All I know is now, half a year later, he is.

 

The science on this isn't settled so it's tough.  I do know that the Jays are going to make the best decision they can for Sanchez's career, even if it means sacrificing some of this year.  One thing that confuses me is how is sending Sanchez to the pen necessarily save his arm.  I realize he'll be throwing fewer innings, but how different is the daily routine between a starter and reliever?  Warming up in the pen all the time has to count towards fatigue.  Would it be less or more ridiculous to start him, say, every 8 days to limit the innings?

[Standing_Tall#37]

5 minutes ago, Fantomex said:

I agree, analytics. You know that stat that suggests Sanchez has been on of the most efficient starters in all of baseball this year? And that other one that says he allows the least amount of runs in the AL... Yea.. Analytics. 

 

You seem to be quite knowledgeable with the game of Baseball, so tell me your true opinion on moving Sanchez to the pen. Is it really that likely a pitcher gets hurt without any sign of fatigue? Even Martin voiced his confusion and dislike of the idea, and I would think the guy who has been his catcher all season would have a pretty good feel for the situation.  

Stupid quote thing. 

 

I'm a longtime fan of the Blue Jays and I hope Sanchez has a long and healthy career. Think of it like this... Your car is running fine for the first 150,000km then boom your transmission drops out and blows your motor.  To me it's not worth the risk to play him in September as a starter... Maybe last week of August.

 

 The kid has high velocity 96mph which puts high strain on the arm. He has good breaking stuff which puts torque on it. If he was in his last year here under contract I'd say go for it. 

 

Ive seen it happen to many times. You don't have a problem til you have a problem. Sanchez is great, having a tremendous year. But he's not super human... One tear is all it takes. A shot at a wildcard spot or division title is not worth turning him into the next Dustin McGowan.

[Fantomex]

1 minute ago, Standing_Tall#37 said:

Stupid quote thing. 

 

I'm a longtime fan of the Blue Jays and I hope Sanchez has a long and healthy career. Think of it like this... Your car is running fine for the first 150,000km then boom your transmission drops out and blows your motor.  To me it's not worth the risk to play him in September as a starter... Maybe last week of August.

 

 The kid has high velocity 96mph which puts high strain on the arm. He has good breaking stuff which puts torque on it. If he was in his last year here under contract I'd say go for it. 

 

Ive seen it happen to many times. You don't have a problem til you have a problem. Sanchez is great, having a tremendous year. But he's not super human... One tear is all it takes. A shot at a wildcard spot or division title is not worth turning him into the next Dustin McGowan.

I too have been a long time fan, but only the last 4-5 years have I been following the game more closely (Watching almost every game, watching other teams and going to Toronto to watch live). So my knowledge of these situations isn't very extensive. Seeing as you put it like that, I would probably have to agree, even though I don't really like it. Hopefully the change of routine doesn't mess with Sanchez too much, and he can continue to contribute to the teams success. Thanks for the perspective ST.

[oldnews]

2 hours ago, Wilbur said:

If it was as simple as showing signs of fatigue I would like to think Sanchez wouldn't be moved to the pen soon..  I do wonder if Syndergaard showed any signs of fatigue last year when he was throwing all those innings.  All I know is now, half a year later, he is.

 

The science on this isn't settled so it's tough.  I do know that the Jays are going to make the best decision they can for Sanchez's career, even if it means sacrificing some of this year.  One thing that confuses me is how is sending Sanchez to the pen necessarily save his arm.  I realize he'll be throwing fewer innings, but how different is the daily routine between a starter and reliever?  Warming up in the pen all the time has to count towards fatigue.  Would it be less or more ridiculous to start him, say, every 8 days to limit the innings?

Yes, jumping up and warming up at random intervals in the pen most certainly counts towards fatigue.   And the risk of injury is arguably heightened given the fact he's not going to have the lead and preparation time that he does in the rotation, knowing when (which days) he'll be pitching, and at precisely what time he'll have to be ready.   Very different than receiving a call in the pen because a starter gets in trouble.  He's also in all likelihood not going to have the rest after pitching that he does in the rotation (unless by bullpen they actually mean 'on the shelf' for the most part). He'll likely be throwing more frequently (regardless of whether he gets a call) and he is not as likely to be entirely prepared.  Imo this is a poor solution - and the fact he's an inexperienced 24 yr old moving into that role doesn't help, nor does messing with his momentum and confidence make much sense.  He's far more likely to stumble (and probably just as likely to injure himself, if not more)  being uprooted to the far more contingent role in the bullpen imo.  I think they should leave him in the rotation and limit his pitch count, perhaps platoon him with someone on an interval basis so he's not out there every 5 days, but moving him to the pen is not a 'solution' imo.

[RUPERTKBD]

12 hours ago, Wild Sean Monahan said:

@RUPERTKBD

 

Dickey pitched a great game. Also liked what he had to say about Danny Barnes in his post-game interview- classy as always.

Yeah, it was nice to see him rebound from the two bad starts. This was a game where the Jays absolutely needed innings (there's that innings thing again) and RA delivered 7 very strong ones. I thought the knuckleball was dancing, but most importantly, Dickey had control.

 

Zaun made a good point after Dickey's loss to the Padres. In that game, RA was missing too much, either giving up walks, or plunking guys. We all know that he's going to give up HRs, that's just the baggage that comes with throwing the knuckler. The difference is, when you don't have control, those homers are of the 3 run variety instead of solo shots.

 

Dickey managed to avoid the HR altogether yesterday, although it could be argued that the shot by Rasmus would have been out of the Roger's Centre and probably a lot of other parks.

 

As far as Barnes goes, I thought the kid looked terrific. (Maybe not as terrific as the Jays made Musgrove look...) You gotta pull for those undersized "pitchers". Reminds me of Estrada in a way.

[Sean Monahan]

22 minutes ago, RUPERTKBD said:

Yeah, it was nice to see him rebound from the two bad starts. This was a game where the Jays absolutely needed innings (there's that innings thing again) and RA delivered 7 very strong ones. I thought the knuckleball was dancing, but most importantly, Dickey had control.

 

Zaun made a good point after Dickey's loss to the Padres. In that game, RA was missing too much, either giving up walks, or plunking guys. We all know that he's going to give up HRs, that's just the baggage that comes with throwing the knuckler. The difference is, when you don't have control, those homers are of the 3 run variety instead of solo shots.

 

Dickey managed to avoid the HR altogether yesterday, although it could be argued that the shot by Rasmus would have been out of the Roger's Centre and probably a lot of other parks.

 

As far as Barnes goes, I thought the kid looked terrific. (Maybe not as terrific as the Jays made Musgrove look...) You gotta pull for those undersized "pitchers". Reminds me of Estrada in a way.

While these situations aren't terribly common (prior game going well beyond 9, leaving the staff depleted), the Jays have had what seems to be more than their fair share this year and dickey stepped up. Gotta give credit where credit is due. They needed him to step up and he more than answered the call. As for his prior starts, that unpredictability is one issue I have with the knuckleball. It's the essence of the pitch, and sometimes (like last night) it pays off in spades while other nights it just kills the team. Live by the sword, die by the sword I guess.

 

That veteran presence is one reason why I'm more than happy to have RA around (as I've mentioned before) if it were at a cheaper price. The way he deflected the question away from his own personal praise and used it as a way to acknowledge the kid's great debut was super classy. As for Musgrove, he looked awesome last night and it's hard to believe how that trade looks now. I can't really remember, but wasn't he considered a very good prospect st the time? Considering they were acquiring the "old" (as opposed to the "new") JA Happ the trade looks like crap now. More of a mean-nothing trade than anything though. 

[oldnews]

3 hours ago, Standing_Tall#37 said:

I think Lariano has huge potential to succeed here. In baseball analytics actually matter... Look at his % of groundballs...

 

i think Donaldson,Tulo and Travis will help his overall success.

 Much better than Kang, Mercer and Harrison in Pittsburgh. 

His slider and sinking fastball are his bread and butter, so it makes sense that when he's on he's getting ground ball outs on a regular basis (particularly against lefties), however he's also a high pitch count guy (always has been) that gives up a lot of walks, doesn't necessarily go deep into games (handing it over to the Jays pen) and the problem is that he's getting hit hard when he does come into the strike zone (something that can't really be reduced to the effectiveness of his infield).  

 

Hitters get to know pitchers, particularly after seeing them 20 or 30 times, and guys aren't chasing him as much as they used to - they're waiting and forcing him to come into the strike zone.  It probably doesn't help that his go-to two strike pitch is his slider and he uses it at an extremely high rate.

 

So analytics are fine and all, but unless there's something tangible that they see - ie. in his delivery/release - or something in the pitch calling in Pitt that has made him too predictable, that can be remedied by Martin, it's not so much a solid 'analytics' move as a crapshoot - that a guy will regain previous form in that latter parts of a season that has been downright awful for him.

 

The deal itself is hard to argue with - the prospects alone are arguably a good return on Hutchinson - and adding Liriano as depth makes sense -  it's simply the idea of banking on Liriano to be a 2/3/or 4 in their rotation - and 'saving' Sanchez's arm for the future that I find problematic.   As someone they're counting on in the rotation - it's not a great deadline 'solution' - he's obviously high risk and imo the team is deep and strong enough that they call for legit pieces to be added.   At the same time, even if you add a Price there is no guarantee they deliver, so I'm glad they didn't follow up last year's rental with another expensive rental.   Liriano has been the "comeback" player of the year twice, so here's hoping he can pull that off a third time - maybe coming back to the American league will also buy him some freshness by virtue of hitters have less recent familiarity with him.

 

 But the additional thing about the Sanchez decision - it's not like his inning count just jumped out of nowhere - it's poor planning to have used him as frequently as they have thus far this season and then turn around at this point and have this decision impact the club as significantly down the stretch of the playoff run and possibly into the postseason.  It's a fail imo either way you slice it - they should have mitigated his use earlier, and in addition, inning count is not the only concern / risk - using him out of the bullpen presents a whole set of other risks that are difficult to relatively evaluate.

[Standing_Tall#37]

2 hours ago, Fantomex said:

I too have been a long time fan, but only the last 4-5 years have I been following the game more closely (Watching almost every game, watching other teams and going to Toronto to watch live). So my knowledge of these situations isn't very extensive. Seeing as you put it like that, I would probably have to agree, even though I don't really like it. Hopefully the change of routine doesn't mess with Sanchez too much, and he can continue to contribute to the teams success. Thanks for the perspective ST.

You're welcome. It's only my opinion and I'm no expert. But either way I know he'll make a strong contribution to this team and any success we have. I to would ideally have him start, but I know he's dependable in the pen. He can only have an effect 20% of the time as a starter. He can impact a game 67% of the time as a reliever. 

 

 I just hope the other guys can hold their own.

[oldnews]

Dickey is fun to watch - gotta hand it to him.   You just never know.  Love him or hate him, you'll likely do both on a regular basis lol.

 

Last night was clutch though.  Favorite part was the way he screwed Carlos Gomez into the dirt on more than one occasion, trying to kill that knuckler.   Someone's gonna look bad....very entertaining.

[Tre Mac]

Not hating on the sport here but if I ever need a nap I put on the jays game and I am out after 2ABs.  I can only watch playoff baseball, and I still love following the sport but my god speed the dam game up.  A foul ball has to be the worst thing in sports.

[ChuckNORRIS4Cup]

I am totally against having Sanchez in the bullpen for numerous reasons, but I have come up with a proposal that maybe just better for both players. 

 

If you look at the leaders in innings pitched Sanchez and Stroman are in the top 10 in the MLB. So why not just keep them both as starters kind of.  Limit their innings pitched but let Sanchez start and pitch 4 innings, then have Stroman be the guy after and pitch 4 as well. Basically having 2 starters pitch the same game, I just don't like the idea of screwing with Sanchez and having him pitch up to 3 days in a row when his arm has been trained all year to have days off. 

 

Liriano can become the 5th starter for now, but you can also limit both these young arms for the rest of the season with out screwing with their routines.

[RUPERTKBD]

28 minutes ago, Wild Sean Monahan said:

While these situations aren't terribly common (prior game going well beyond 9, leaving the staff depleted), the Jays have had what seems to be more than their fair share this year and dickey stepped up. Gotta give credit where credit is due. They needed him to step up and he more than answered the call. As for his prior starts, that unpredictability is one issue I have with the knuckleball. It's the essence of the pitch, and sometimes (like last night) it pays off in spades while other nights it just kills the team. Live by the sword, die by the sword I guess.

 

That veteran presence is one reason why I'm more than happy to have RA around (as I've mentioned before) if it were at a cheaper price. The way he deflected the question away from his own personal praise and used it as a way to acknowledge the kid's great debut was super classy. As for Musgrove, he looked awesome last night and it's hard to believe how that trade looks now. I can't really remember, but wasn't he considered a very good prospect st the time? Considering they were acquiring the "old" (as opposed to the "new") JA Happ the trade looks like crap now. More of a mean-nothing trade than anything though. 

He did look very good, but lately I've been wondering if the Jays have just been running into some very effective swing men, or if their collective approach is just making it look that way. (How many K's did the middle relievers rack up in the extra inning game? Do we remember any of the names without looking it up?)

 

Based on what I saw in the past two nights, (I was out of town at a ball tournament, so I missed all of the Oriole series) the Jays' hitters look completely incapable of recognizing the breaking ball coming out of the pitcher's hand. How many times in those tow games did we see the batter swing over top of a breaking ball in a fastball count? The opposing pitchers weren't at all concerned about walking anyone, because they knew that the Jays' hitters were going to swing as long as the ball was close to the strike zone.

 

It's like Zaun said: Everyone wanted to be the hero and hit the game-winning homer. Meanwhile, it was only a matter of time before the combination of Altuve and Correa put a run on the board for the Astros.

 

At this point, I don't know if I blame Gibby or Brook Jacoby, but I don't like the approach that the batters are taking. I understand the three run homer philosophy, but that strategy at times needs to be put aside in favor of some small ball. You saw it yesterday from the Stros: With two outs and power hitter Gattis at the plate, he completely cut down his swing with two strikes and blooped an RBI single into right. I just can't imagine Bats, Edwing or JD doing that. Even with two strikes, or just needing a baserunner, all the Jays hitters are coming out of their shoes on every swing.

 

I completely get the approach in the early stages of the game and it's what gave the Jays the runs they needed yesterday, but it's too inflexible for my liking. I don't care how much power you have. There are times when you need to manufacture runs.

 

7 minutes ago, Standing_Tall#37 said:

You're welcome. It's only my opinion and I'm no expert. But either way I know he'll make a strong contribution to this team and any success we have. I to would ideally have him start, but I know he's dependable in the pen. He can only have an effect 20% of the time as a starter. He can impact a game 67% of the time as a reliever. 

 

 I just hope the other guys can hold their own.

I tend to agree with oldnews (and many others) that Sanchez should remain in the rotation, (at least until he shows signs of arm fatigue) but playing the Devil's advocate, I'll put forth a scenario where things aren't as dire as they might appear.

 

Bear in mind that this scenario is predicated on the continued health of Estrada.

 

Moving Sanchez to the 'pen weakens the rotation without a doubt, but bear in mind that it's the best rotation in the AL east by a decent margin. Losing Sanchez still leaves the team with an excellent top three in Marco, Happ and Stro, plus a reliable .500 guy who chews up innings. They have a reclamation project in the #5 slot, but there's no denying his stuff and we should expect at least a slight upgrade over what Liriano was giving the Bucs. We like to give Martin a hard time because of his bat, but he's excellent at handling pitchers.

 

Lets assume the Jays make the playoffs. (okay, I know it's a big assumption, but bear with me) You need three starters in the postseason. I would be comfortable with Estrada, Happ and Stroman as my starting three. Then you have Dickey and Liriano for long relief if one of the starters doesn't have it and Sanchez, Grili and Cecil as the bridge guys to get you to Osuna.

 

I would have liked another reliable lefty specialist, but I'm still pretty comfortable with that bull pen.

 

The trick is going to be getting into the playoffs, but honestly, I'm more concerned about the offense right now than I am about the pitching. I know these guys are good hitters, I just don't like the current approach at the plate.

[Sean Monahan]

@RUPERTKBD

 

I've missed bits and pieces of the games recently but the approaches have been terrible. I think Musgrove pitched pretty well but the Jays made him look better. Pretty much to a man their approaches have been awful and there's been zero adjustments from what I've seen. Gattis was looking terrible earlier in the series, wore the sombrero (maybe even golden sombrero) one game and then shortened up and had that little RBI Texas leaguer you mentioned, something we haven't seen from the Jays. Two home runs last night but they were both solo shots so how much good does that do when you're not manufacturing any runs? Game 1 against Baltimore they had some great at bats and managed to score runs without the long ball and it's pretty much dried up since. 

 

Side note, I saw Pillar was up to 26 doubles on the year after this two double game against Baltimore- just doing s rough estimate off the top of my head that should put him around 35 doubles by the end of the year, possibly more if he gets hot. That's nothing to scoff at and a pretty good indicator that he's learning to drive the ball. There's some power potential in him that's yet to be discovered, evidenced by some of the home runs he hits. Edwin hit something like 40-45 doubles the year before he really broke out (was it 2010? 2011?). I think Buck (or was it Tabby?) may be on to something when they said Pillar will hit 20+ home runs some day.

[RUPERTKBD]

1 minute ago, Wild Sean Monahan said:

@RUPERTKBD

 

I've missed bits and pieces of the games recently but the approaches have been terrible. I think Musgrove pitched pretty well but the Jays made him look better. Pretty much to a man their approaches have been awful and there's been zero adjustments from what I've seen. Gattis was looking terrible earlier in the series, wore the sombrero (maybe even golden sombrero) one game and then shortened up and had that little RBI Texas leaguer you mentioned, something we haven't seen from the Jays. Two home runs last night but they were both solo shots so how much good does that do when you're not manufacturing any runs? Game 1 against Baltimore they had some great at bats and managed to score runs without the long ball and it's pretty much dried up since. 

 

Side note, I saw Pillar was up to 26 doubles on the year after this two double game against Baltimore- just doing s rough estimate off the top of my head that should put him around 35 doubles by the end of the year, possibly more if he gets hot. That's nothing to scoff at and a pretty good indicator that he's learning to drive the ball. There's some power potential in him that's yet to be discovered, evidenced by some of the home runs he hits. Edwin hit something like 40-45 doubles the year before he really broke out (was it 2010? 2011?). I think Buck (or was it Tabby?) may be on to something when they said Pillar will hit 20+ home runs some day.

I agree on Pillar. He seems to generate a lot of bat speed, which is pretty much all you need to put up power numbers.

 

I think his biggest impediment right now is his lack of selectivity at the plate. He simply swings at too many bad pitches and it's obvious on some occasions that he goes up there with swing on his mind. Once he develops a better eye at the plate, I think his power numbers will go up.