CBC closing down comments section on Indigenous stories due to high racism

[falcon45ca]

1 minute ago, GLASSJAW said:

whoops, i thought that said "in" not "into" - as if someone born in 2000- is a millennial, not before

my bad

 

No worries!

[Fateless]

31 minutes ago, etsen3 said:

The reason why they get more attention is because often times they don't get equal treatment.  Some people still don't get it no matter how much you tell them.  It's not the media's fault that certain people get upset when confronted with facts they're not comfortable with.

White people can be discriminated against too and it's not OK when that happens, but it's generally easier to escape.  It's not systemically ingrained in society.

Perpetuating unequal treatment through over-proportionality is just as much as an inequality as the rest, but they don't complain because THAT inequality actually benefits them.

They hypocrisy that comes from select minority groups can be overwhelming. I'm not painting everyone by the same brush here, I understand that there are bad eggs in every group and they tend to be the loudest, but its frustrating when you're someone that wants to accept everyone as equals but that means having their agendas shoved in your face at every turn.

Yeah, the aboriginals were treated awfully for a really long time - but the way they treat other Canadians now isn't so great either. Aboriginals perpetuate the "us versus them" mentality but then continue to play the victim when realistically a lot of them are better off than the typical Canadian these days. Sure would be great if the government would pay for my tuition every year and if I could have a bunch of tax credits - but I let those things go because I understand the role Canada had in repressing and harming their culture. With that said, the system itself is just a never-ending circle because there is no "expiry date" on what the Aboriginal groups will accept as a sufficient apology.

 

[falcon45ca]

1 minute ago, Fateless said:

Perpetuating unequal treatment through over-proportionality is just as much as an inequality as the rest, but they don't complain because THAT inequality actually benefits them.

They hypocrisy that comes from select minority groups can be overwhelming. I'm not painting everyone by the same brush here, I understand that there are bad eggs in every group and they tend to be the loudest, but its frustrating when you're someone that wants to accept everyone as equals but that means having their agendas shoved in your face at every turn.

Yeah, the aboriginals were treated awfully for a really long time - but the way they treat other Canadians now isn't so great either. Aboriginals perpetuate the "us versus them" mentality but then continue to play the victim when realistically a lot of them are better off than the typical Canadian these days. Sure would be great if the government would pay for my tuition every year and if I could have a bunch of tax credits - but I let those things go because I understand the role Canada had in repressing and harming their culture. With that said, the system itself is just a never-ending circle because there is no "expiry date" on what the Aboriginal groups will accept as a sufficient apology.

 

Canada signed treaties...yes, Natives receive what some perceive as  "extras", but that's what signing a treaty is about. You also get treaty benefits...such as the ability to purchase land & obtain mineral rights.

Canada signed legal & binding agreements, it's not an "apology" for  cultural suppression. In fact, if you do some light reading on the treaty agreements you'd realize that the Gov't of Canada has not fulfilled its obligations whatsoever.

[Fateless]

1 minute ago, falcon45ca said:

Canada signed treaties...yes, Natives receive what some perceive as  "extras", but that's what signing a treaty is about. You also get treaty benefits...such as the ability to purchase land & obtain mineral rights.

Canada signed legal & binding agreements, it's not an "apology" for  cultural suppression. In fact, if you do some light reading on the treaty agreements you'd realize that the Gov't of Canada has not fulfilled its obligations whatsoever.

I'm aware of what treaties were signed, I'm a law student who specializes in constitutional law who has a lot of experience with issues in this area. I'm aware that Canada has failed on many accounts, I'm not here saying that Canada has done a great job at dealing with this situation (in fact I'd argue they've made it a lot worse). The fact is that everything that Canada has done has been as an apology. Spend some time going through the Truth and Reconciliation findings and you'll realize that while Canada has really missed the mark - the entire premise is about understanding what we did wrong and making amends (exactly what an apology is all about). 

Regardless, the problem with the entire issue is that its going in a never-ending circle. Natives were wronged so they are given restitution in the form of benefits (not perceived benefits, they're tangible benefits unavailable to the rest of Canadians). The rest of Canadians find this unfair as they were not the original perpetrators of what repressed the Aboriginal groups (remember that its been 20 years since the last residential school closed and its been a long time since real Aboriginal repression was an issue). With modern Canadians feeling they get the short end of the stick because of disproportionate attention being given to a minority group, many Canadians lash out with hateful speech and actions. This causes further repression and creates a bigger divide.

The circle isn't going to end with the way it is currently in place. Canada continues to try to apologize to Aboriginals by giving them equal rights throughout Canada. Equality is not what Aboriginals are after and it never has been.

[falcon45ca]

6 minutes ago, Fateless said:

I'm aware of what treaties were signed, I'm a law student who specializes in constitutional law who has a lot of experience with issues in this area. I'm aware that Canada has failed on many accounts, I'm not here saying that Canada has done a great job at dealing with this situation (in fact I'd argue they've made it a lot worse). The fact is that everything that Canada has done has been as an apology. Spend some time going through the Truth and Reconciliation findings and you'll realize that while Canada has really missed the mark - the entire premise is about understanding what we did wrong and making amends (exactly what an apology is all about). 

Regardless, the problem with the entire issue is that its going in a never-ending circle. Natives were wronged so they are given restitution in the form of benefits (not perceived benefits, they're tangible benefits unavailable to the rest of Canadians). The rest of Canadians find this unfair as they were not the original perpetrators of what repressed the Aboriginal groups (remember that its been 20 years since the last residential school closed and its been a long time since real Aboriginal repression was an issue). With modern Canadians feeling they get the short end of the stick because of disproportionate attention being given to a minority group, many Canadians lash out with hateful speech and actions. This causes further repression and creates a bigger divide.

The circle isn't going to end with the way it is currently in place. Canada continues to try to apologize to Aboriginals by giving them equal rights throughout Canada. Equality is not what Aboriginals are after and it never has been.

You may be a law student, but you're clearly having troubles discerning between an apology & fulfilling one's legal obligations.

Again, the perceived benefits that Native's receive via the treaties are not an apology...they are legal obligations of the Gov't of Canada.

Think of it in sports terms...when a team honours a players' contract, the team is not apologizing, they are fulfilling their legal responsibility.

[Fateless]

18 minutes ago, falcon45ca said:

You may be a law student, but you're clearly having troubles discerning between an apology & fulfilling one's legal obligations.

Again, the perceived benefits that Native's receive via the treaties are not an apology...they are legal obligations of the Gov't of Canada.

Think of it in sports terms...when a team honours a players' contract, the team is not apologizing, they are fulfilling their legal responsibility.

I'm not misunderstanding anything. We have legal obligations to the Aboriginal people because Canada decided to make a legally binding covenant to make restitution to the Aboriginals. Yes, we have treaties and contracts - but the only reason they exist is because we have decided to live with the Aboriginals opposed to America who decided to decimate them. Our legal obligations to Aboriginals only arose when we understood the role we had taken in shaking their culture and realizing we had to make amends for it. 

Something can be both a legal obligation and an apology. It happens all the time in contract law. Your sports analogy is not accurate to this situation because in sports both the player and the team have something to offer one another. Canada has full sovereignty over everything and everyone in Canada - even the Aboriginals. 

[falcon45ca]

14 minutes ago, Fateless said:

I'm not misunderstanding anything. We have legal obligations to the Aboriginal people because Canada decided to make a legally binding covenant to make restitution to the Aboriginals. Yes, we have treaties and contracts - but the only reason they exist is because we have decided to live with the Aboriginals opposed to America who decided to decimate them. Our legal obligations to Aboriginals only arose when we understood the role we had taken in shaking their culture and realizing we had to make amends for it. 

Something can be both a legal obligation and an apology. It happens all the time in contract law. Your sports analogy is not accurate to this situation because in sports both the player and the team have something to offer one another. Canada has full sovereignty over everything and everyone in Canada - even the Aboriginals. 

 

Good luck with your law career, but I seriously hope you have a plan B.

[Mustapha]

2 hours ago, inane said:

Read that link till I got to this

'This is the big difference seen between the right and left in the way that we argue. Conservatives want rigorous discussion, leftists seek to destroy lives.'

Lol sounds legit.

Not sure if you are being sarcastic or what, but the person in that article was forced to give up his livelihood and face the possibility of jail time because he disagreed with some feminists on Twitter...there is a difference between disagreement and harassment. 

I don't 100% endorse the statement regardingthe argument tactics of left vs. right (there is plenty of ignorance on both sides) but it's quite clear that the claims of harassment are an attempt to censor this person and his views. (Or punish him for having those views)

It's not a joke and if it's allowed to continue, we will see more and more of it up here in Canada, where there is no First Amendment-type document to protect free speech.

[RWMc1]

1 hour ago, Fateless said:

I'm aware of what treaties were signed, I'm a law student who specializes in constitutional law who has a lot of experience with issues in this area. I'm aware that Canada has failed on many accounts, I'm not here saying that Canada has done a great job at dealing with this situation (in fact I'd argue they've made it a lot worse). The fact is that everything that Canada has done has been as an apology. Spend some time going through the Truth and Reconciliation findings and you'll realize that while Canada has really missed the mark - the entire premise is about understanding what we did wrong and making amends (exactly what an apology is all about). 

Regardless, the problem with the entire issue is that its going in a never-ending circle. Natives were wronged so they are given restitution in the form of benefits (not perceived benefits, they're tangible benefits unavailable to the rest of Canadians). The rest of Canadians find this unfair as they were not the original perpetrators of what repressed the Aboriginal groups (remember that its been 20 years since the last residential school closed and its been a long time since real Aboriginal repression was an issue). With modern Canadians feeling they get the short end of the stick because of disproportionate attention being given to a minority group, many Canadians lash out with hateful speech and actions. This causes further repression and creates a bigger divide.

The circle isn't going to end with the way it is currently in place. Canada continues to try to apologize to Aboriginals by giving them equal rights throughout Canada. Equality is not what Aboriginals are after and it never has been.

If you had a lot of experience with these issues you wouldn't be so ignorant of the facts. Treaties were never about making up for perceived "wrongs". The fact is that past governments appropriated lands and in return made promises in the form of treaties. They have not honoured even one treaty as originally written. Imagine the government taking your property and promising you 10 cents for every dollar it was worth, then giving you only 2 cents per dollar, then you would have an inkling of how Aboriginals have been treated by every government in power. It's ongoing because these treaties are basically contracts that have not been honoured. Canadians that find this unfair are either ignorant of the facts or are racists.

[Mustapha]

37 minutes ago, Fateless said:

I'm not misunderstanding anything. We have legal obligations to the Aboriginal people because Canada decided to make a legally binding covenant to make restitution to the Aboriginals. Yes, we have treaties and contracts - but the only reason they exist is because we have decided to live with the Aboriginals opposed to America who decided to decimate them. Our legal obligations to Aboriginals only arose when we understood the role we had taken in shaking their culture and realizing we had to make amends for it. 

Something can be both a legal obligation and an apology. It happens all the time in contract law. Your sports analogy is not accurate to this situation because in sports both the player and the team have something to offer one another. Canada has full sovereignty over everything and everyone in Canada - even the Aboriginals. 

I understand what you are trying to say, but the numbered treaties are not 'reparations'. They are literally business deals trading the control of the land in exchange for effectively becoming wards of the state.

http://www.aadnc-aandc.gc.ca/eng/1100100032291/1100100032292

"

Between 1871 and 1921, the Crown entered into treaties with various First Nations that enabled the Canadian government to actively pursue agriculture, settlement and resource development of the Canadian West and the North. Because they are numbered 1 to 11, the treaties are often referred to as the “Numbered Treaties.” The Numbered Treaties cover Northern Ontario, Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta, and parts of the Yukon, the Northwest Territories and British Columbia.

Under these treaties, the First Nations who occupied these territories gave up large areas of land to the Crown. In exchange, the treaties provided for such things as reserve lands and other benefits like farm equipment and animals, annual payments, ammunition, clothing and certain rights to hunt and fish. The Crown also made some promises such as maintaining schools on reserves or providing teachers or educational help to the First Nation named in the treaties. Treaty No. 6 included the promise of a medicine chest."

 

Having said that, it is becoming clear that this segregation can no longer continue. The pre-colonial way of life is no longer viable for First Nations. The issue is again, and I have to stress this - the leadership of their various groups. In order for the agreement between First Nations and Canada to evolve, FN leadership will have to give up some of the power it holds over its members, as well as the wealth that is a direct result of that. There will be those that perceive a new agreement as a reduction of special rights for FN members, but the reality is all Canadians should have the same rights and responsibilities under the law if there is any hope for equality.

[RWMc1]

5 hours ago, wizardB said:

The minute the left doesn't have everyone agreeing with the crap they peddle they shut down comments and break out the racism card. Racism isn't the problem the wholesale give away of our money and land to a few people is racism of the worst kind. It is our country we built it after we took it from a stone age culture that was doing nothing with it and no progressing out the stone age and now they want what we built and want more of our hard earned money to boot
.

There is far too much ignorance in Canada. Canada was originally built on the fur trade. Natives and Europeans were partners and worked together for a long time. They married and had families together. At some point European countries realized that they would have acknowledge land rights. They declared all aboriginals of new territories as non-citizens and would not recognize family members as citizens. This led to many men abandoning their wives and children and eventually led to land appropriation and segregation which is still being dealt with today.

[Fateless]

1 minute ago, Mustapha said:

I understand what you are trying to say, but the numbered treaties are not 'reparations'. They are literally business deals trading the control of the land in exchange for effectively becoming wards of the state.

http://www.aadnc-aandc.gc.ca/eng/1100100032291/1100100032292

I'm not really referring to the black letter usage of the numbered treaties. I understand they are business deals. I'm more concerned with the climate in which they were created and the fallout that has stemmed from it. 

There was essentially two models to dealing with Aboriginals. The American model of killing them all and subjugating them and the Canadian model which was a standard of manipulation followed by years of reparations. While the original treaties were not reparations (as nothing had yet happened that required reparation), everything that followed after was. 

I think we were discussing different issues as I was more concerned with Aboriginal Rights under s. 35 of the Charter and the modern impression their rights bring - I wasn't really discussing the original numbered treaties. 

[RWMc1]

If anyone would like to relieve themselves of some of their ignorance, I suggest that you google the Kenney dam and Alcan. This occurred in the 1950's. Since then there has been massive amounts of revenue generated by Alcan and industries supported by the dam. The amount of money spent on Aboriginals in that area are a drop in the bucket in comparison.

[drummer4now]

4 minutes ago, RWMc1 said:

If anyone would like to relieve themselves of some of their ignorance, I suggest that you google the Kenney dam and Alcan. This occurred in the 1950's. Since then there has been massive amounts of revenue generated by Alcan and industries supported by the dam. The amount of money spent on Aboriginals in that area are a drop in the bucket in comparison.

Another example is DeBeers mining corp.. 

[Alflives]

Is there a reason why we don't just all participate in our democracy equally?  

[drummer4now]

6 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Is there a reason why we don't just all participate in our democracy equally?  

I think people should be satisfied with one fact and that is atleast Canada acknowledges what it did to First Nations.. instead of the Americans or even South American countries who basically put everything under the carpet so to speak. 

If I am not mistaken FN have more incentives in Canada than say the USA. 

Imagine if Canada pulled a Japan in terms of censoring and re-writing history books like they did with WW2. 

[Alflives]

2 minutes ago, drummer4now said:

I think people should be satisfied with one fact and that is atleast Canada acknowledges what it did to First Nations.. instead of the Americans or even South American countries who basically put everything under the carpet so to speak. 

If I am not mistaken FN have more rights in Canada than say the USA. 

Imagine if Canada pulled a Japan in terms of censoring and re-writing history books like they did with WW2. 

I don't disagree with your sentiments.  My point is a simple one: all Canadians should be provided equal opportunity - no exceptions. IMHO the foundation of a successful and lasting democracy is in the equality of its citizens.  Every citizen must feel they have equal opportunity to participate.  

[Fateless]

1 minute ago, Alflives said:

I don't disagree with your sentiments.  My point is a simple one: all Canadians should be provided equal opportunity - no exceptions. IMHO the foundation of a successful and lasting democracy is in the equality of its citizens.  Every citizen must feel they have equal opportunity to participate.  

This is a great ideal and what we should strive for. There is a problem with the way our systems are currently set up though. There are TONS of exceptions to this rule. Many people have more rights and benefits in society than others. People always say that middle-age white males have it best, but the fact is they actually have the least amount of access to benefits - minorities have an abundance of advantages which are put in place to over-correct for historical disadvantages. 

The problem is that groups aren't happy with merely being treated as equals - they want compensation for the time they weren't treated as equals. Is it fair to expect compensation for poor treatment? I think the answer is yes, but only to an extent - and certainly not for an indefinite period of time. 

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, Fateless said:

This is a great ideal and what we should strive for. There is a problem with the way our systems are currently set up though. There are TONS of exceptions to this rule. Many people have more rights and benefits in society than others. People always say that middle-age white males have it best, but the fact is they actually have the least amount of access to benefits - minorities have an abundance of advantages which are put in place to over-correct for historical disadvantages. 

The problem is that groups aren't happy with merely being treated as equals - they want compensation for the time they weren't treated as equals. Is it fair to expect compensation for poor treatment? I think the answer is yes, but only to an extent - and certainly not for an indefinite period of time. 

We have social programs in place to help those in need: the handicapped so they can participate in our democracy to the fullest.  To single out one cultural group for social assistance is going to certainly create negative commentary.  I'm not surprised CBC had to shut down its comments page.  All people want in their democracy is equal opportunity.  

[Fateless]

Just now, Alflives said:

To single out one cultural group for social assistance is going to certainly create negative commentary. 

Its a fine line though - they were here first after all. I understand owing them something and I understand having to work on fixing our relationship with the Aboriginals when you really understand how much damage Canada did to them. 

With that said, its really hard to sell the public on having to pay extra taxes to so that Aboriginal students can take University spots from students with higher grades and actually funding their own education.

Unfortunately the entire system has been dealt with extremely poorly. Canada screwed over the Aboriginals, then they screwed over themselves. Unfortunately it falls on us to pay for those mistakes.