Canucks stuck in the reality of a rebuild - Pierre McGuire

[JamesB]

2 hours ago, combover said:

Someone should tell him Benning since he believes this roster is a playoff competative team..lol.

not to mention waiving the top d prospect and losing him for nothing trading another d prospect clendening again essentially for nothing. Trading for plugs like prust and bartkoski signing  sutter long term with a ntc and a gross over payment.

Seems more like a train wreck than a rebuild. 

Hockeynews reported in the summer Benning moves were mystifying  and had absolutely no direction or rashinal behind them.

The Canucks Army and various others have said something similar (except I am pretty sure they said "rationale" not "rashinal").

I think that is a bit hard. I think that, due to pressure from ownership, Benning was trying hard to put a team on the ice that could make the playoffs. I also think he actual believes he can upgrade the team without high draft picks. And I admit that last year's low first rounder (Boeser) looks good.

But, as most experts have said, that is a very tough thing to do. To have a chance at a good rebuild the Canucks a high draft pick this year AND additional draft picks in the low first or second round obtained by trading vets at the deadline.

[Crabcakes]

29 minutes ago, JamesB said:

The Canucks Army and various others have said something similar (except I am pretty sure they said "rationale" not "rashinal").

I think that is a bit hard. I think that, due to pressure from ownership, Benning was trying hard to put a team on the ice that could make the playoffs. I also think he actual believes he can upgrade the team without high draft picks. And I admit that last year's low first rounder (Boeser) looks good.

But, as most experts have said, that is a very tough thing to do. To have a chance at a good rebuild the Canucks a high draft pick this year AND additional draft picks in the low first or second round obtained by trading vets at the deadline.

bring me your illiterate, your unwashed..... what's rationale daddy?

Honestly, I think that Bennings moves over the summer were designed to make incremental improvements while not upsetting the larger plan that he had put in motion.  That is, not to give away more than he got back in return so that improvements could be realized. 

Unfortunately, key injuries have made things difficult (Sutter, Hamhuis, Tanev, Higgins (sorta)) and now we're seeing prospects being asked to do more than they should (Horvat, McCann, Hutton) and some confidence issues coming up.  I have to wonder if Bennings rebuild is going too fast because really, 1 key injury to Sutter has spoiled everything.

[Ryan Strome]

1 hour ago, DeNiro said:

They aren't? Could have fooled me.

Kings trade 1st and Mckeown for Andrej Sekera

That was only last trade deadline

Examples go both ways Deniro, both Vanek and Gaborik didn't get a 1st in return.

[DeNiro]

1 minute ago, Ryan Strome said:

Examples go both ways Deniro, both Vanek and Gaborik didn't get a 1st in return.

A 2nd and Collberg for Vanek is a pretty high price. Collberg was considered a pretty good prospect at the time (early 2nd rounder in 2012)

And then for Gaborik it ended up being Frattin and two 2nd round picks.

Either of those could be considered equal to a late first round pick. Either way though it varies from year to year. It all depends on how desperate certain GMs are and whether we have a player that fits their needs.

I wouldn't be surprised to only get a 2nd for Vrbata, but I also wouldn't rule out getting a 1st from a team like Montreal.

 

[Ryan Strome]

13 minutes ago, DeNiro said:

A 2nd and Collberg for Vanek is a pretty high price. Collberg was considered a pretty good prospect at the time (early 2nd rounder in 2012)

And then for Gaborik it ended up being Frattin and two 2nd round picks.

Either of those could be considered equal to a late first round pick. Either way though it varies from year to year. It all depends on how desperate certain GMs are and whether we have a player that fits their needs.

I wouldn't be surprised to only get a 2nd for Vrbata, but I also wouldn't rule out getting a 1st from a team like Montreal.

 

I think we should keep expectations at a 2nd rounder and if we do land a 1st its gravy. As far as Montreal goes I don't even see them as a bidder for RV unless the price is reasonable. I also don't think Bergevin gives up a 1st.

And the second 2nd in the Gaborik deal was actually a 3rd with conditionds making it a 2nd. Nevertheless it worked out for L.a I suppose.

I just don't see g.ms tossing around first rounders, the Canadian dollar continues to slump and the cap could stagnate in the future. Lots of drafting/good drafting is essential in todays nhl. Look at Pittsburgh cupboard is bare and they don't look very good not to mention not enough young players to step into key roles thus allowing them to allocate cap money to other parts of the team.

 

[DeNiro]

1 minute ago, Ryan Strome said:

I think we should expectations at a 2nd rounder and if we do land a 1st its gravy. As far as Montreal goes I don't even see them as a bidder for RV unless the price is reasonable. I also don't think Bergevin gives up a 1st.

Don't forget we can also retain salary in a trade. Vrbata at 2.5 mil might just be enticing enough to a team that wants secondary scoring.

That might also allow them to go out and get another piece to add more depth, which can add alot of value.

 

[Ryan Strome]

Just now, DeNiro said:

Don't forget we can also retain salary in a trade. Vrbata at 2.5 mil might just be enticing enough to a team that wants secondary scoring.

That might also allow them to go out and get another piece to add more depth, which can add alot of value.

 

Sure you're right however I'm not necessarily debating the value or lack of value of RV I'm just thinking with all the variables at play in the nhl atm g.m's have to be smarter then to toss away 1st rounders unless it's really worth it.

Teams like Pitts, Nyr and maybe even Chicago could be in trouble in the future, though Chicago won cups and always seem to draft well. As for the other two teams I listed, cupboards are getting bare and giving up 1st rounders at a time when the cap is stagnating is possibly terrifying.

As for Sekera and Vermette I think most were baffled with those returns but atleast Chicago won a cup, easier to live with when you win.

Look what Nyr gave for Yandle...that may turn out bad for them, real bad.

[DeNiro]

6 minutes ago, Ryan Strome said:

Sure you're right however I'm not necessarily debating the value or lack of value of RV I'm just thinking with all the variables at play in the nhl atm g.m's have to be smarter then to toss away 1st rounders unless it's really worth it.

Teams like Pitts, Nyr and maybe even Chicago could be in trouble in the future, though Chicago won cups and always seem to draft well. As for the other two teams I listed, cupboards are getting bare and giving up 1st rounders at a time when the cap is stagnating is possibly terrifying.

As for Sekera and Vermette I think most were baffled with those returns but atleast Chicago won a cup, easier to live with when you win.

Look what Nyr gave for Yandle...that may turn out bad for them, real bad.

I get your point. I definitely wouldn't want our team to throw away a 1st round pick.

However if I were a fan of the Rangers, Stars, Habs, Caps, or Kings I would want my GM to do everything they could to put the team over the top. Even if it meant trading a first. Who knows when their teams will be as good as they are again. Their core are in their prime and are looking like they can go all the way.

If they're serious about making it to the finals, I doubt a 25th-30th pick is gonna come back to haunt them.

[JamesB]

58 minutes ago, Crabcakes said:

bring me your illiterate, your unwashed..... what's rationale daddy?

Honestly, I think that Bennings moves over the summer were designed to make incremental improvements while not upsetting the larger plan that he had put in motion.  That is, not to give away more than he got back in return so that improvements could be realized. 

Unfortunately, key injuries have made things difficult (Sutter, Hamhuis, Tanev, Higgins (sorta)) and now we're seeing prospects being asked to do more than they should (Horvat, McCann, Hutton) and some confidence issues coming up.  I have to wonder if Bennings rebuild is going too fast because really, 1 key injury to Sutter has spoiled everything.

No argument from me. Benning's strategy has no wiggle room. As you point out, one key injury and the lack of depth is a big problem.

But I think that both Sutter and Hammer are key injuries.

The Canuck D looks a lot worse w/o Hammer than it did with him. In the two games since he was injured the D has, in my view, been badly exposed.

[Crabcakes]

2 minutes ago, JamesB said:

No argument from me. Benning's strategy has no wiggle room. As you point out, one key injury and the lack of depth is a big problem.

But I think that both Sutter and Hammer are key injuries.

The Canuck D looks a lot worse w/o Hammer than it did with him. In the two games since he was injured the D has, in my view, been badly exposed.

Ya, we are yet to witness the fallout from the Hamuis injury.

[messier's_elbow]

14 minutes ago, JamesB said:

No argument from me. Benning's strategy has no wiggle room. As you point out, one key injury and the lack of depth is a big problem.

But I think that both Sutter and Hammer are key injuries.

The Canuck D looks a lot worse w/o Hammer than it did with him. In the two games since he was injured the D has, in my view, been badly exposed.

If your entire season rests on the health of a 2nd/3rd line centre your in trouble. This team is done. We need 2 years of high picks. Let's do it now while I'm still relatively young.

[messier's_elbow]

All I know is that Benning better be eye @#% the heck out of the projected top 10 this year and make the right pick. 

[DeNiro]

7 minutes ago, messier's_elbow said:

All I know is that Benning better be eye @#% the heck out of the projected top 10 this year and make the right pick. 

I was just looking at the draft history of the Canucks and started getting depressed. So many picks we made ended up playing a grand total of 0 games in the NHL. And the real dagger was that so many times there were players one or two spots around their pick that became hall of famers or will become hall of famers.

It's so painfully obvious why this team has had 45 years of failure. Their drafting has been a who's who of nobodies. They couldn't have picked worse if they put the players names in a hat and drew them out.

I hope that having a scout GM and our own farm team will finally be the winning combination. You can't build a championship team without drafting. It's the reason why the Canucks were one finals and done. If they had drafted well the success would have been sustainable, but we all know how that went.

I hope this time we build the team through the draft, get the core locked up, and continue to draft and develop well so that we can challenge every season, not just for a couple. I mean it's pretty bad when teams like Phoenix and Nashville are killing us at the drafting game. There's no excuse for that.

[messier's_elbow]

4 minutes ago, DeNiro said:

I was just looking at the draft history of the Canucks and started getting depressed. So many picks we made ended up playing a grand total of 0 games in the NHL. And the real dagger was that so many times there were players one or two spots around their pick that became hall of famers or will become hall of famers.

It's so painfully obvious why this team has had 45 years of failure. Their drafting has been a who's who of nobodies. They couldn't have picked worse if they put the players names in a hat and drew them out.

I hope that having a scout GM and our own farm team will finally be the winning combination. You can't build a championship team without drafting. It's the reason why the Canucks were one finals and done. If they had drafted well the success would have been sustainable, but we all know how that went.

I hope this time we build the team through the draft, get the core locked up, and continue to draft and develop well so that we can challenge every season, not just for a couple. I mean it's pretty bad when teams like Phoenix and Nashville are killing us at the drafting game. There's no excuse for that.

Your 100% right. Our drafting has been atrocious. It's been good for about the last 3 years though which is encouraging. Getting McCann and now Boeser with low firsts was massive for this franchise going forward. 

[messier's_elbow]

6 hours ago, Rush17 said:

the biggest take away i had from this was on brock boeser.  He mentioned something about boeser possibly making the jump to the nhl next season!  I thought he would want at least another year in the ncaa.  If he made the jump next season along with the other youngsters it would be amazing.  Imagine: Horvat, McCann, Virtanen, Shinkaruk, Greiner, Boeser, hutton, gaunce all in the lineup?  Plus our pick from this year if we finish top 5?  I'm really diggin Jesse  Puljujarvi

I like Puljujarvi as well, but we already have 2 blue chip RW prospects. 

[DeNiro]

9 minutes ago, messier's_elbow said:

Your 100% right. Our drafting has been atrocious. It's been good for about the last 3 years though which is encouraging. Getting McCann and now Boeser with low firsts was massive for this franchise going forward. 

Yea those two picks panning out will really help. Even 2012 getting Gaunce and Hutton seem to be good picks. I think both should be full time NHLers.

It's important we keep drafting like that though to really round out the future core. Getting that elusive puck mover and a gamebreaker for the top 6 should be managements top priority now.

 

 

[messier's_elbow]

1 minute ago, DeNiro said:

Yea those two picks panning out will really help. Even 2012 getting Gaunce and Hutton seem to be good picks. I think both should be full time NHLers.

It's important we keep drafting like that though to really round out the future core. Getting that elusive puck mover and a gamebreaker for the top 6 should be managements top priority now.

 

 

Bennings strongest attribute by a mile is his drafting. If we can get a top 5 pick and a late first for Vbata we will be looking in decent shape. 

[Oliewud]

trade vrbata with hamhuis for a guaranteed 1st.

id be very happy with two first round picks in next years draft. WE NEED IT.

[DeNiro]

6 minutes ago, messier's_elbow said:

Bennings strongest attribute by a mile is his drafting. If we can get a top 5 pick and a late first for Vbata we will be looking in decent shape. 

Definitely. Having two picks in the first round 3 out of 4 years will really make up for our poor drafting over the years,

Right now I see our depth chart of realistic NHLers looks like this:

Center:McCann (number 2 center) Horvat (number 3 center) Cassels (number 4 center)

Right Wing:Boeser, Virtanen, Grenier, Jensen

Left Wing: Shinkaruk, Zhukenov, Gaunce

D-men: Hutton, Subban, Tryamkin, Brisebois, Pedan, Neill (mostly bottom pairing D if they make it)

Still need a number 1 center, some depth on the left wing, and a couple top pairing D-men. That can all be accomplished with one good draft.

 

[Pears]

9 hours ago, DeNiro said:

I don't think there's a prospect that McGuire doesn't like.

Boeser was a very solid under the radar pick. When everyone else was distracted by CHL players like Konecny and Merkley, Benning went after the guy most of us didn't even know much about.

Yea. I didn't know anything about Boeser until a few days before the draft. Now I couldn't have been happier with that pick.