Plum Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 Hey I'm not sure where the discussion started so I'm just curious what your stance on this whole issue is - because I feel like your position was probably distorted or you departed from your original position to the extreme end. If you could state or point out your original position that'd be great. Throwing lots of hits and being physical (not shying away from contact) don't always go together. You can be physical without throwing lots of hits. Also, you can succeed in the bottom 6 as without throwing lots of hits as long as you are smart defensively and play physical. Horvat doesn't throw a lot of hits, but IMO that's not a part of his game and he will not need to do change that in order to find success at the next level. He uses his body and gets engaged physically, goes to the dirty areas, and gets the job done. Anyway, that's not pointed at you. It's just what I think and I was curious what your original position was. Well my argument is that Horvat shouldn't play on the 4th line, I'm taking into consideration that he could possibly move up and he could play up to 10-12 minutes. Some posters have said he could play on the PK or PP which I think is ridiculous sure he's a skilled kid but I think you gotta be lying if Sedins, Burrows, Higgins, Bonino, Hansen, Kassian, Vey out of a PP spot or Burrows, Higgins, Vey, Richardson, Hansen out of a PK spot. I highly doubt we'll get more than 2-3 players out at a time due to injury. He's going to have a significant decrease in minutes from around 20 minutes to around 10 minutes. It's a hard transition and we have the AHL to help him along the way but, Horvat has to pick one or the other if he can't get the 3rd line. Another thing is, is it worth trying him at the NHL level on the 4th line? He'll match up against 4th line goons alot. Is there a risk putting him in Junior for another year? He'll have a good team with really good teammates and he'll be on the WJC team aswell. It'll come down to if he's ready or not but he's going to have to take Dorsett's spot for the 4th line, I think Dorsett is a better 4th liner than Horvat aswell. Maybe Horvat's a better hockey player but Dorsett is suited better for the 4th line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baumerman77 Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 (edited) From what I have seen of Horvat (7 or 8 Knights games, WJC games, Canucks Pre-season/Rookie Camp, highlights) he is not nearly as physical as people (scouts, fans) believe him to be. He is fairly strong for his size but he doesn't seem to use it to the extent one would expect. He needs another year in junior to be more comfortable in physical play. Maybe adding even more muscle will help his confidence who knows. The extra year of junior will also help his offense. I am not saying fighting is a great proxy for physicality but it does offer some insight. Here are some Canucks prospect junior career fight totals (according to hockeyfights.com) Virtanen 6 McCann 2 Cassels 7 Fox 14 Shinkaruk 1 Horvat 1 Gaunce 6 Jensen 1 Edited August 9, 2014 by baumerman77 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Off_The_Schneid! Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 Everyone keeps gushing over mcdavid, from what I've seen he puts a lot of effort and gets the chances but doesn't finish in the big games. Horvat beating him in points so far. He puts the goals in from the dirty areas. Will translate well to the nhl unlike mcdavid/ fabbri who could get crushed for making the moves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dasein Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 Everyone keeps gushing over mcdavid, from what I've seen he puts a lot of effort and gets the chances but doesn't finish in the big games. Horvat beating him in points so far. He puts the goals in from the dirty areas. Will translate well to the nhl unlike mcdavid/ fabbri who could get crushed for making the moves Horvat is 2 years older than McDavid... That's like saying you'd rather have a 2003 draftee who scored more than Crosby in 2005 WJC camp than Crosby himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dasein Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 (edited) Well my argument is that Horvat shouldn't play on the 4th line, I'm taking into consideration that he could possibly move up and he could play up to 10-12 minutes. Some posters have said he could play on the PK or PP which I think is ridiculous sure he's a skilled kid but I think you gotta be lying if Sedins, Burrows, Higgins, Bonino, Hansen, Kassian, Vey out of a PP spot or Burrows, Higgins, Vey, Richardson, Hansen out of a PK spot. I highly doubt we'll get more than 2-3 players out at a time due to injury. He's going to have a significant decrease in minutes from around 20 minutes to around 10 minutes. It's a hard transition and we have the AHL to help him along the way but, Horvat has to pick one or the other if he can't get the 3rd line. Another thing is, is it worth trying him at the NHL level on the 4th line? He'll match up against 4th line goons alot. Is there a risk putting him in Junior for another year? He'll have a good team with really good teammates and he'll be on the WJC team aswell. It'll come down to if he's ready or not but he's going to have to take Dorsett's spot for the 4th line, I think Dorsett is a better 4th liner than Horvat aswell. Maybe Horvat's a better hockey player but Dorsett is suited better for the 4th line. Fair enough. He is definitely better off spending a full year in London to develop than spend the whole year on the Canucks 4th line. There is no way Horvat gets PP ice time - that's ridiculous like you say. However, I still think there is a possibility that he might see some PK time later in the year, or if there are injuries (inevitable) he will get a chance to show his abilities. You said you took into consideration that he could possibly move up to the 3rd line during the year? I'm curious as to why you would still be opposed to Horvat being on our roster if that's the case, because he's projected to be a 2nd or 3rd line center - so an ideal place for him to begin his career in the 3rd line. I definitely don't want to see Horvat getting limited ice time on our 4th line when he could be playing top minutes in London. At the same time, I would be okay with Horvat starting on the 4th line for the Canucks if management saw that Horvat is on the brink, and he's beat out a 4th line veteran for a roster spot, and that they think by Christmas, he can be a 3rd line regular if he gets a little NHL experience. For me, it's really up to that possibility - is a little NHL experience all Bo needs to be a 3rd line forward? If that's a yes, I think we'll see him on our 4th line on opening day, and I would be okay with that (and possibly loaning him out to WJC if he hasn't cracked the 3rd line by then). If that's a no, then he will spend another year in the OHL IMO. Edited August 9, 2014 by Dasein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dasein Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 (edited) Hypothetical WJC situation just for fun: Suppose Bo Horvat makes the Canucks 4th line because management thinks he can become a 3rd line regular by halfway point of the season, and Jared McCann impresses in the OHL. Christmas nears, and Bo is still improving the 4th line (looking better everyday), and McCann is still impressing. Team Canada asks if we will loan Bo for the WJC tournament. If we loan Bo, he is a lock and could possibly wear the "C" while representing Canada, but would bump McCann out of a position. If we don't loan Bo, McCann sneaks onto Team Canada's roster and gets an opportunity to impress. What would you do? Edited August 9, 2014 by Dasein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSnipeshow91 Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 Hypothetical WJC situation just for fun: Suppose Bo Horvat makes the Canucks 4th line because management thinks he can become a 3rd line regular by halfway point of the season, and Jared McCann impresses in the OHL. Christmas nears, and Bo is still improving the 4th line (looking better everyday), and McCann is still impressing. Team Canada asks if we will loan Bo for the WJC tournament. If we loan Bo, he is a lock and could possibly wear the "C" while representing Canada, but would bump McCann out of a position. If we don't loan Bo, McCann sneaks onto Team Canada's roster and gets an opportunity to impress. What would you do? If he gets 1st line role send him. If he doesn't, no. Rather have McCann there than wasting Bo, playing weaker competition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asian player Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 Hypothetical WJC situation just for fun: Suppose Bo Horvat makes the Canucks 4th line because management thinks he can become a 3rd line regular by halfway point of the season, and Jared McCann impresses in the OHL. Christmas nears, and Bo is still improving the 4th line (looking better everyday), and McCann is still impressing. Team Canada asks if we will loan Bo for the WJC tournament. If we loan Bo, he is a lock and could possibly wear the "C" while representing Canada, but would bump McCann out of a position. If we don't loan Bo, McCann sneaks onto Team Canada's roster and gets an opportunity to impress. What would you do? Ohhh boy I would probably loan Horvat. He'll be relied on in all situations and we'll finally have a captain on the Canadian squad. McCann won't play much if he makes the team. He can play next year if he wants to feel good about himself. Also, McCann will have a lot going on in the Soo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dasein Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 If he gets 1st line role send him. If he doesn't, no. Rather have McCann there than wasting Bo, playing weaker competition. Probably not. I think a lot would depend on what Buffalo does with Sam Reinhart. If Sam's back, I think he'll get the "C" and the 1st line role. If not, then it's kind of open for others I guess, but TBH I wouldn't be too confident about Team Canada if our 1C is Bo.. As much as I love him as a prospect, he's a bonafide 2C with excellent defensive capabilities but I don't think he could carry the offense on a team. Maybe if McDavid plays on his wing again.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knucklehd Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 Everyone keeps gushing over mcdavid, from what I've seen he puts a lot of effort and gets the chances but doesn't finish in the big games. Horvat beating him in points so far. He puts the goals in from the dirty areas. Will translate well to the nhl unlike mcdavid/ fabbri who could get crushed for making the moves I'm probably going to get flamed for this, but to this point I haven't been enormously impressed with mcdavid either. We will see if that changes this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Off_The_Schneid! Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 Horvat is 2 years older than McDavid... That's like saying you'd rather have a 2003 draftee who scored more than Crosby in 2005 WJC camp than Crosby himself. Your not listening I'm saying mcdavid is overhyped. Your calling him Crosby not me. I'm saying that Bo"s style of play is more geared towards the nhl than Mcdavids. I don't get all the hype about mcdavid, the next yakupov if you ask me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plum Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 Your not listening I'm saying mcdavid is overhyped. Your calling him Crosby not me. I'm saying that Bo"s style of play is more geared towards the nhl than Mcdavids. I don't get all the hype about mcdavid, the next yakupov if you ask me The skill is real for McDavid. He isn't one dimensional offensively either. If you have elite vision, hockey IQ, skating, passing skills you will succeed in the NHL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex425 Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 (edited) Your not listening I'm saying mcdavid is overhyped. Your calling him Crosby not me. I'm saying that Bo"s style of play is more geared towards the nhl than Mcdavids. I don't get all the hype about mcdavid, the next yakupov if you ask me No, I don't think he's Crosby 2.0 but Yakupov? Hell no man. He's like Tavares 2.0 or better. Plays a different game than Yakupov. Yakupov was never considered a comparable for Crosby or even Ovechkin for that matter. Edited August 9, 2014 by Rex425 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Off_The_Schneid! Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 No, I don't think he's Crosby 2.0 but Yakupov? Hell no man. He's like Tavares 2.0 or better. Plays a different game than Yakupov. Yakupov was never considered a comparable for Crosby or even Ovechkin for that matter. Nor should mcdavid By the end of the year we will be on the same page when he starts slipping in the draft Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plum Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 Nor should mcdavid By the end of the year we will be on the same page when he starts slipping in the draft He won't slip further than #2. The hype factor and comparisons will make sure he's atleast #2. Unless he scores 0 points. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaudette Celly Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 I definitely don't want to see Horvat getting limited ice time on our 4th line when he could be playing top minutes in London. This is I think where the misunderstanding comes in. The Canucks have clearly said they intend to roll four lines this year, and the moves they've made indicate that it will happen. The bottom 6 will likely have similar ice-time, not like last year's gong show. We really need to get past the last half of last season. It was not in any way indicative of the skill level nor the abilities of this team, let alone be as directly transferable to this season as many believe it to be. Time to let it go. And I think I read somewhere that Horvat was wearing the "c" in exhibition tournament? If so, I think that speaks volumes about this kid....think about it folks (if he was wearing the C) .. Yup, ponder what it means Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dasein Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 Your not listening I'm saying mcdavid is overhyped. Your calling him Crosby not me. I'm saying that Bo"s style of play is more geared towards the nhl than Mcdavids. I don't get all the hype about mcdavid, the next yakupov if you ask me I'm not comparing him to Crosby.. Read it again. I'm comparing your ridiculous bolded statement to being similar to saying "you'd rather have a 2003 draftee who scored more than Crosby in 2005 WJC camp than Crosby himself." I'm not comparing McDavid to Crosby, but the two statements. McDavid is not Crosby's level, but he is the real deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dasein Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 (edited) This is I think where the misunderstanding comes in. The Canucks have clearly said they intend to roll four lines this year, and the moves they've made indicate that it will happen. The bottom 6 will likely have similar ice-time, not like last year's gong show. We really need to get past the last half of last season. It was not in any way indicative of the skill level nor the abilities of this team, let alone be as directly transferable to this season as many believe it to be. Time to let it go. Yup, ponder what it means And therein lies your misunderstanding. Yes, last year was atrocious. The 4th line got 5-6 minutes. With the new coach and the promise of rolling 4 lines, we are not going to see a 4th line with those kinds of minutes. However, the bottom 6 is not going to have similar ice-time - believe me. I think the Boston Bruins are the prime example of a team that rolls 4 lines. On their 4th line last season, center Gregory Campbell got 11:54, Danny Paille got 10:58, and Shawn Thornton got 8:48. Just take that in for a second. And keep in mind that Campbell and Paille kill penalties. Bo is unlikely to get PK duties with the likes of Burrows, Higgins, Hansen, Richardson, Matthias, Vey, etc. So at best, he's looking at 9-10 minutes - just 4 minutes, or 4-6 shifts more than what he would have gotten under Tortorella. This "rolling" all 4 lines is a grand illusion - it means that the Sedins will no longer play 20+ minutes but a reasonable 17-19, the 2nd line will get no more than 18, the 3rd line will get around 13-15, and the 4th line hovering barely around 10. The grand illusion of "rolling 4 lines" has people thinking 4th line minutes will be sufficient for a 19-year-old's development for an entire year - it is not. I am okay with Horvat getting 4th line minutes if he's really close and that they believe that he will develop to be a 3rd line forward during the year. But if Bo is only good enough for the 4th line and it's clear at camp that he will remain there for the whole year (aka not close to being a 3rd line forward), we are better off sending to London to play huge minutes - because that's what will be better for his development. Edited August 10, 2014 by Dasein 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yogolol Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 Your not listening I'm saying mcdavid is overhyped. Your calling him Crosby not me. I'm saying that Bo"s style of play is more geared towards the nhl than Mcdavids. I don't get all the hype about mcdavid, the next yakupov if you ask me hahahaha, dude actually watch McDavid play. The only thing this kid doesn't have is a big body, he literally excels in everything else. Great skater, great vision, great hands, good defensively (the mcdavid stick lift is becoming a thing). Every time I've seen him play he's been the best player on the ice, guy is like henrik sedin on cocaine 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UFCanuck Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 hahahaha, dude actually watch McDavid play. The only thing this kid doesn't have is a big body, he literally excels in everything else. Great skater, great vision, great hands, good defensively (the mcdavid stick lift is becoming a thing). Every time I've seen him play he's been the best player on the ice, guy is like henrik sedin on cocaine So who wants to get Henrik some Cocaine? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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