R.Dahlin26 Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 1 minute ago, Darius71 said: Have you seen how many top 10 drafted d men have failed to meet any expectation? there is one on our roster right now in Pouliot. Draft position does not guarantee anything. My issue with your argument is not whether Juolevi is gonna be a bust or not . Im not even arguing that he was the best pick at 5. My issue are your timelines. It is absurd to look down on the kid (exactly what you are doing here) because he is not having an impact in the NHL right away. The guy is 19. I wont even be worried if he plays in Utica next year at 20. Again, your issue is that you want to be gratified right now because Tkachuk (absurd to compare him to a winger btw) and Sergachev are lighting it up. And is there something wrong with wanting an impact player with a top 5 draft pick? Is there something wrong with wanting Juoelvi to be lighting it up for us? To do what Tkachuk is doing for Calgary? To do what Sergachev and McAvoy are doing for TB and BOS? Especially having to sit through that miserable 2015-2016 season only to make a questionable pick with the 5th overall pick, a pick that has continued to be highly questionable. Again if Juolevi isn't in the NHL next year making strides into becoming an impact defenceman than that should be worrying, just look at all the d-men drafted in the top 10 who are still figuring it out in their D+3 year, they tend to not work out. Case in point you Pouliot example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darius Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 1 minute ago, ilduce39 said: The silly labels like draft position and draft+ years mean nothing at the end of the day without context as to their individual development. It’s lazy thinking. lol...so true. Who invented these labels anyway? Im old school, it feels funny talking about this as if it were a level in a video game. back to the convo , i gree with your points. The other guy I remember is M. Ohlund....drafted in 94 and spent 3 years in Sweden....put up lower numbers in his second year in Sweden than his first year...the "d levelers" would have been in a P A N I C.... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Great Canucks Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 12 hours ago, guntrix said: Reading comprehension is an asset. That’s not what the convo was even about. Juo is a good prospect but I don’t understand why posters are so defensive about @R.Dahlin26 stating that Miro is a better prospect thus far. It just exemplifies this board’s insecurity (which is understandable given the Jake pick). Even if we forget the Brock and Bo comparisons, you still have the Lind vs Glass one in the other thread. The epitome of a premature discussion. Pot meet kettle. Pot meet kettle indeed. Firstly, get some reading comprehension yourself. Secondly, you don't get to whine and cry about people making comparisons when you and plenty of others to the same thing. You don't like us comparing guys like Lind and Glass? Then stop comparing Virtanen to Nylander/Ehlers. If you and others are going to compare our prospects to others in a negative way, then don't act upset when these comparisons are also done in a positive way for us. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohmy Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 8 minutes ago, R.Dahlin26 said: Seriously? Both Muzzin and Klingberg where 5th round draft picks. Odds were that they both were not going to make it just because of the round they were picked in. They both have developed into excellent d-men but who expected it? Juolevi is a fifth overall pick who is expected to be a difference maker and when you're picking in the top 5 they should be impact players very soon if not right away. They don't take 3-5 years and if they do they usually don't work out. Thomas Chabot, Darnell Nurse, Josh Morrisey, Ryan Pulock, Shea Theodore, Matt Dumba, Michael Matheson, and Brady Skjei. All 1st round picks who took until at least there D+3 season to become an NHL regular. All are playing well and trending upwards. Ill be more than happy to follow that trajectory. And I already know your argument that none were top 5 picks however that is ireelevant as players are ready when there ready. I dont care if it takes an extra year or two if it gives us a great player for ten years. 2 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.Dahlin26 Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 6 minutes ago, ilduce39 said: Don’t you see how silly that sounds, though? Setting some obscure goal posts: top 10, D+3 and then saying “tend to not usually work out.” To add to Darius: Matthias Ekholm is another who took awhile to crack the NHL. Who cares if he was drafted in a later round? Your argument is that players that don’t play in the NHL by their D+3 year can’t go on to be highly effective. The silly labels like draft position and draft+ years mean nothing at the end of the day without context as to their individual development. It’s lazy thinking. Juolevi is 19 until May. First year in a men’s league overseas, switching to the bigger ice surface. Gained 20 pound this offseason. Putting up historically good numbers for a rookie. Named a top player for his team in the U20 worlds. Was always considered a long-term prospect as he grows into his body. He’s a memorial cup and world junior champion. ...but I’m supposed to be worried because he might start next year in Utica? I almost hope he does. He’ll be 20 for the whole year - that’s still super young. There’s no real reasons to worry if you put down the obscure labels and look at the actual player involved. Why are you comparing defenceman drafted in late rounds who are expected to have 3-5 years of development to a defenceman drafted in the top 5 who should have minimal flaws to his game and be extremely close to being an impact NHL'er. The mistake you're making is having the patience and expectations of a mid-round draft pick of a top 5 draft pick. To each their own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhippy Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 1 hour ago, aGENT said: I need to save this somewhere Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.Dahlin26 Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 4 minutes ago, ohmy said: Thomas Chabot, Darnell Nurse, Josh Morrisey, Ryan Pulock, Shea Theodore, Matt Dumba, Michael Matheson, and Brady Skjei. All 1st round picks who took until at least there D+3 season to become an NHL regular. All are playing well and trending upwards. Ill be more than happy to follow that trajectory. And I already know your argument that none were top 5 picks however that is ireelevant as players are ready when there ready. I dont care if it takes an extra year or two if it gives us a great player for ten years. Why didn't we trade down to the teens where the majority of those defensemen were drafted and used a pick on a defenceman there? Why did we have to use a top 5 draft choice on a potential second pairing d-man? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhippy Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 1 hour ago, ForsbergTheGreat said: The problem is, you are being too simplistic. It’s not as simple as more ice = more production. There’s so much more to production than ice time and usage. Heck why don’t we give Brock 24 minutes a night and all 4 minutes of PP time per game, by your theory his production should also go up even higher…..Hey, same with the Sedins, instead of cutting back their ice time, why don’t we try increasing it? Getting the point? What happens when Juolevi’s team gives him the same usage as Heiskanen (which include the same pressures of being counted on as the number 1 D) and Juolevi can’t handle it. It would destroy his confidence and hurt his development. Case en point, Alex Edler. When he became the go to guy he cracked and his play and production has taken a massive hit. Asking a player to do to much doesn’t increase production. There’s reasoning as to why players are counted on more than others. It’s not as simple as you’re trying to make it out to be. Have they given him that responsibility? That quality d pairing? No. So that argument is moot. Hasn't destroyed anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilduce39 Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 1 minute ago, R.Dahlin26 said: Why are you comparing defenceman drafted in late rounds who are expected to have 3-5 years of development to a defenceman drafted in the top 5 who should have minimal flaws to his game and be extremely close to being an impact NHL'er. The mistake you're making is having the patience and expectations of a mid-round draft pick of a top 5 draft pick. To each their own. Are you trying to say that if a top pick doesn’t pan out immediately (as a 19 year old apparently) he must be a bust? That just doesn’t make sense. Doubly so given everything we know about Juolevi. Agree to disagree I guess. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohmy Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 1 minute ago, R.Dahlin26 said: Why didn't we trade down to the teens where the majority of those defensemen were drafted and used a pick on a defenceman there? Why did we have to use a top 5 draft choice on a potential second pairing d-man? OMG! Im sorry if your to shortsighted to understand what has been laid out for you my hands are tied. Maybe take a break and think about it. Until then lets all enjoy our propects developing and have a nice day . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 4 minutes ago, Warhippy said: I need to save this somewhere That's what 'the Google' is for. https://www.google.ca/search?q=grandpa+simpson+gif&rlz=1C1GGRV_enCA751CA751&oq=grandpa+simpson&aqs=chrome.0.69i59j69i57j0l4.5727j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Darius Posted January 30, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted January 30, 2018 (edited) 6 minutes ago, R.Dahlin26 said: Why didn't we trade down to the teens where the majority of those defensemen were drafted and used a pick on a defenceman there? Why did we have to use a top 5 draft choice on a potential second pairing d-man? your judging in retrospect and assuming Juolevi will turn out to be a second pair d man. edit - ill just digress here...not worth my time. Edited January 30, 2018 by Darius71 1 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.Dahlin26 Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 Just now, ilduce39 said: Are you trying to say that if a top pick doesn’t pan out immediately (as a 19 year old apparently) he must be a bust? That just doesn’t make sense. Doubly so given everything we know about Juolevi. Agree to disagree I guess. I'm saying if a top 5 draft choice isn't at least in the NHL by their D+3 they tend to not turn out as you had hoped and end up being disappointments. Juolevi should be making the team next year and making strides into being a legitimate top 4 d-man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhippy Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 38 minutes ago, R.Dahlin26 said: Then he should have no problem making this team next year and being an impact player just like Tkachuk, McAvoy, Segachev, and Keller if he's developing so nicely. We'll see how he looks like in Training camp. Check out all the d-men drafted in the top 10 who have not made the NHL by there D+3 they tend to not usually work out. Wrong. He won't be playing with studs in sheltered areas or Norris calibre players like Hedman Giordano or Chara. Give him a world class perennial true #1 d man to pair with or a top 10 offensive team and it sure changes things. Bringing a top prospect on to a team like Tampa Boston or an upcoming Calgary is very different than bringing them in to an Arizona or a Vancouver See Kellers production post November 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.Dahlin26 Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 2 minutes ago, Warhippy said: Wrong. He won't be playing with studs in sheltered areas or Norris calibre players like Hedman Giordano or Chara. Give him a world class perennial true #1 d man to pair with or a top 10 offensive team and it sure changes things. Bringing a top prospect on to a team like Tampa Boston or an upcoming Calgary is very different than bringing them in to an Arizona or a Vancouver See Kellers production post November So we should wait until we're a powerhouse like Tampa or an up and coming team like Calgary? Chara is Norris calibre in 2018? How is Boeser doing so well on such a horrific team! If Juolevi is legit he'll succeed regardless of his surroundings just like Keller/Chychrun in Arizona. Why Can't Juolevi be playing with a defensive stud like Tanev? Stop making excuses for a top 5 draft choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flickyoursedin Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 3 minutes ago, Warhippy said: Wrong. He won't be playing with studs in sheltered areas or Norris calibre players like Hedman Giordano or Chara. Give him a world class perennial true #1 d man to pair with or a top 10 offensive team and it sure changes things. Bringing a top prospect on to a team like Tampa Boston or an upcoming Calgary is very different than bringing them in to an Arizona or a Vancouver See Kellers production post November Thank you! It’s like some people don’t realize this. Production is bound to go up when you’re sheltered and on a team that’s top 5 in scoring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhippy Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 (edited) 4 minutes ago, R.Dahlin26 said: So we should wait until we're a powerhouse like Tampa or an up and coming team like Calgary? Chara is Norris calibre in 2018? How is Boeser doing so well on such a horrific team! If Juolevi is legit he'll succeed regardless of his surroundings just like Keller/Chychrun in Arizona. Why Can't Juolevi be playing with a defensive stud like Tanev? Stop making excuses for a top 5 draft choice. Wow...you really don't see why that is important do you This is where i bow out. Pointless continuing. Edited January 30, 2018 by Warhippy 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilduce39 Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 11 minutes ago, R.Dahlin26 said: I'm saying if a top 5 draft choice isn't at least in the NHL by their D+3 they tend to not turn out as you had hoped and end up being disappointments. Juolevi should be making the team next year and making strides into being a legitimate top 4 d-man. A bit premature to be worrying about, then. Given that we could go into next year with Edler, Del Zotto, Hutton and Pouliot on the books there’s a chance he starts in Utica just based on waivers/asset management. We’ll see though. By all accounts his transition and offensive game is NHL ready - just needs to consistently play in the D zone. That could be polished in Utica. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flickyoursedin Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 2 minutes ago, R.Dahlin26 said: So we should wait until we're a powerhouse like Tampa or an up and coming team like Calgary? Chara is Norris calibre in 2018? How is Boeser doing so well on such a horrific team! If Juolevi is legit he'll succeed regardless of his surroundings just like Keller/Chychrun in Arizona. Why Can't Juolevi be playing with a defensive stud like Tanev? Stop making excuses for a top 5 draft choice. No don’t wait but you gotta realize that point production is gonna be lower right now in Vancouver than it is on almost any other team. Vancouver is bottom 3 in the league with 2.6 goals per game. Tampa and Boston are top 3 in the league with 3.3 and 3.5 goals per game. That’s what’s making Boeser’s season even more special than it is because he’s doing it on a garbage team. Boeser at 20 is leading his team and by far the best player Vancouver has. Where guys like Barzal and Sergachev while impressive have better players on their teams to play with. Juolevi will be on the team next year. His weight has been what’s kept him out since his draft year guys like Sergachev and Chychrun are physical specimens and both weighed almost 200lbs at the draft. Everybody knew at the draft they’d beat Juolevi to the show but in terms of potential play I wouldn’t say either of those guys are far superior at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaudette Celly Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 1 hour ago, R.Dahlin26 said: Again I can't see it. Stecher was a FA signing out of college. Juolevi is a 5th overall pick and a questionable one, there will be a lot of allure and buzz around him so if he is NHL ready, he'll make the team IMO. Yeah, you're done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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