[Rumour/Speculation] Hudler/Canucks

[coastal.view]

10 minutes ago, DeNiro said:

Why would a young player who wants top 6 minutes sign here? There's no spots. Of course it's an issue.

 

We do pretty good at signing free agent D-men because our D has been fairly weak and there's spots up for grabs.

mmm..  i don't like your reasoning at all

i do not think you aresuggesting we should make spots available for untested college free agent wingers in order to sign them?

i think we sign quality young players who are motivated and believe in themselves

and then make them earn their spots

if they have prima donna tendancies about them, ala J. Schultz, they bloody well can go sign elsewhere

talented young players who demonstrate they are worthy will earn a top 6 roster spot on any sane nhl team

the canucks will create room for players who show they deserve a spot.

unless a player is a high draft pick, very talented, and ready to play in the nhl in his draft year, he simply will not get a top 6 spot right away

kessler and burrows both earned their way into the upper tier of talent on this team historically

that is the way things generally go

[oldnews]

46 minutes ago, DeNiro said:

Makes no sense. And they wonder why young forwards don't wanna sign here...

This makes no sense.  You're using a hypothetical to suggest that young forwards don't sign here - because of the hypothetical use of Baertschi?   As if WD has a rep for mistreating/misusing his young forwards, which prevents young forwards from signing in Vancouver.

Nonsense.  

Dramatic effect, but nonsense.

[oldnews]

1 hour ago, J.R. said:

I think Sutter and Horvat will be pretty close to splitting d zone starts (with Sutter's expected/relied upon to also put up more offense). Bo's line putting up points will just be gravy (that'd be the sheltering part).

 

I also think that if we sign a 'Hudler', Baer is more than likely playing on Granlund's line again, not Horvat's. I think they already plan on having some mix of Etem, Burrows, Dorsett or Virtanen on Horvat's line. 

 

Otherwise, unless Rodin can come in and wow everyone, that 2LW spot is likely his due to a lack of other options. 

 

 

If the second (Sutter's) line plays the kind of dzone/'defensive specialist' minutes @DeNiro is suggesting, and Horvat continues to play the kind of harder minutes he has and is cut out to handle, then that would free the fourth line up to play softer minutes in any event - and the fact they're the "fourth" line is only a nominal cookie-cutter matter, as they wouldn't be playing the traditional 4th line role.   Having a pair of harder minutes middle six lines - with a younger scoring line playing moderate minutes wouldn't necessarily be such a bad idea - and might get you a little more secondary scoring from your bottom six (ala the old school Coiler kid lines).   The pressure to produce and the matchups would be reduced.  WD has hinted that having a player like Baertschi on his 4th line would be ideal - perhaps he meant it in a wealth of depth sense - or perhaps he meant it in an unconventional matchup sense.  

When you see the SC Champions roll with 13 million worth of 3rd line wingers, who knows what the 'formula' is anymore?

[oldnews]

30 minutes ago, DeNiro said:

Why would a young player who wants top 6 minutes sign here? There's no spots. Of course it's an issue.

 

That's news.  Seemed like the team was actually interested in signing or trading for a gritty top 6 LW that could provide some secondary scoring and weightiness to the forward group.

But apparently "there's no spots".  New to me.

[Odjick_fan]

27 minutes ago, DeNiro said:

Why would a young player who wants top 6 minutes sign here? There's no spots. Of course it's an issue.

 

We do pretty good at signing free agent D-men because our D has been fairly weak and there's spots up for grabs.

Your argument would be valid if DipS#$t Torts was still coaching here, but to my understanding WD rolls all four lines.  The only line that should get more minutes is the Sedins - Eriksson line, the rest should be pretty similar in minutes.

 

Again the old school fight club fourth line is history.  

[coastal.view]

26 minutes ago, oldnews said:

This makes no sense.  You're using a hypothetical to suggest that young forwards don't sign here - because of the hypothetical use of Baertschi?   As if WD has a rep for mistreating/misusing his young forwards, which prevents young forwards from signing in Vancouver.

Nonsense.  

Dramatic effect, but nonsense.

even Baertschi resigned here for 2 years

i guess he was not as maltreated as suggested ???

[DeNiro]

4 minutes ago, coastal.view said:

even Baertschi resigned here for 2 years

i guess he was not as maltreated as suggested ???

RFA 

[coastal.view]

Just now, DeNiro said:

RFA 

i know that

that is not really relevant to his happiness here though

i think he is happy and motivated

as he knows he is getting a real opportunity to make and contribute meaningfully to this team

[oldnews]

13 minutes ago, coastal.view said:

even Baertschi resigned here for 2 years

i guess he was not as maltreated as suggested ???

I think WD did a great job of sheltering him early - recognizing that his confidence was fragile and that he lacked assertiveness in his game - bringing him along accordingly, giving him more and harder minutes as the season progressed - and the results were obvious.   The fragile Baertschi that arrived here transformed into a player far more resembling his younger potential - and WD imo deserves his share of credit in that process, even with a depleted lineup making things more difficult to tailor than he would have wanted.

 

Baertschi was anything but 'mistreated' by WD.

[coastal.view]

4 minutes ago, oldnews said:

I think WD did a great job of sheltering him early - recognizing that his confidence was fragile and that he lacked assertiveness in his game - bringing him along accordingly, giving him more and harder minutes as the season progressed - and the results were obvious.   Fragile Baertschi transformed into a player far more resembling his younger potential - and WD imo deserves his share of credit in that process, even with a depleted lineup making things more difficult to tailor as he would have wanted.

 

Baertschi was anything but 'mistreated' by WD.

i agree with your view point

Baertschi was either mistreated somehow and overcame that all to have a more productive 2nd half to his season

or more likely, as you suggest

he was treated to some real wisdom and forced to add some structure and discipline to his game

in order to allow him to actually break out at this level

wd has a solid reputation of being able to work well with younger players

so i kinda lean to the tough love good coaching explanation myself

[mll]

55 minutes ago, coastal.view said:

mmm..  i don't like your reasoning at all

i do not think you aresuggesting we should make spots available for untested college free agent wingers in order to sign them?

i think we sign quality young players who are motivated and believe in themselves

and then make them earn their spots

if they have prima donna tendancies about them, ala J. Schultz, they bloody well can go sign elsewhere

talented young players who demonstrate they are worthy will earn a top 6 roster spot on any sane nhl team

the canucks will create room for players who show they deserve a spot.

unless a player is a high draft pick, very talented, and ready to play in the nhl in his draft year, he simply will not get a top 6 spot right away

kessler and burrows both earned their way into the upper tier of talent on this team historically

that is the way things generally go

It's not that simple with skilled offensive players.  You can't just have them earn their way up.  It really depends on the line definitions  and their linemates - it's not necessarily top-6 but putting them on a grinding line is not going to help them.  They also need to get regular ice time and linemates.  Even WD admitted that it was once they gave Baertschi regular linemates, more time and had him on the PP that he was able to find his place - he talks of confidence and how skilled players need to handle the puck.    

 

Canucks coach Willie Desjardins agreed that it’s harder to start in the NHL in an offensive role than a checking one.

“I believe it’s a lot harder,” Desjardins said. “I just think it’s a different dynamic. And I think it’s the hardest because you can lose confidence in your game when you’re not getting those results. Defence is just a lot of hard work and battling and it seems that’s more in your control. I think it was a little easier for Bo the way he came in (on the fourth line) and built his game. Saying that, he still did it. I think for McCann and Baertschi, it’s a little bit tougher to do.”  

[oldnews]

9 minutes ago, coastal.view said:

i agree with your view point

Baertschi was either mistreated somehow and overcame that all to have a more productive 2nd half to his season

or more likely, as you suggest

he was treated to some real wisdom and forced to add some structure and discipline to his game

in order to allow him to actually break out at this level

wd has  solid reputation of being able to work well with younger players

so i kinda lean to the tough love good coaching explanation myself

I think he arrived in Van with his confidence in shaky condition.

I imagine Hartley (and Burke) may have had his share in that - who knows - but it's certainly turned around with Green and Desjardins.

 

“There are three zones in the ice surfaces in this league,” Burke said back in 2013. “I don’t see that he’s learned to play and compete in two of them.”

Written off by the Flames for his defensive ineptitude and a lack of competitive fire, it’s ironic that it was Baertschi’s improvement on the defensive side of the puck that kept him in the Vancouver Canucks’ lineup this season.

No doubt Baertschi himself knows and feels the difference...

 

“The coaching staff helped me out with a lot of things,” Baertschi continued. “But also watching other players on our team. Learning from Bo, how well he plays defensively, and if the scoring isn’t there you have to be reliable.”

 

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/baertschis-defensive-game-redeeming-rough-beginnings/

 

 

Huge improvement imo in all aspects of his game last year.  Limit opposition possession....more offensive possession for he and his linemates to enjoy.  He progressively got much stronger on the puck, more aggressive in his checking, starting with strong stick checking and getting more and more physically assertive.  I think he's put himself in a position where he's a legitimate breakout candidate.

[coastal.view]

4 minutes ago, mll said:

It's not that simple with skilled offensive players.  You can't just have them earn their way up.  It really depends on the line definitions  and their linemates - it's not necessarily top-6 but putting them on a grinding line is not going to help them.  They also need to get regular ice time and linemates.  Even WD admitted that it was once they gave Baertschi regular linemates, more time and had him on the PP that he was able to find his place - he talks of confidence and how skilled players need to handle the puck.    

 

Canucks coach Willie Desjardins agreed that it’s harder to start in the NHL in an offensive role than a checking one.

“I believe it’s a lot harder,” Desjardins said. “I just think it’s a different dynamic. And I think it’s the hardest because you can lose confidence in your game when you’re not getting those results. Defence is just a lot of hard work and battling and it seems that’s more in your control. I think it was a little easier for Bo the way he came in (on the fourth line) and built his game. Saying that, he still did it. I think for McCann and Baertschi, it’s a little bit tougher to do.”  

your realize the discussion was very focused on undrafted college free agent forwards

usually fringe talent that went undrafted

and a player who likely had a recent very good year to attract new attention as he had been previously overlooked

your analysis would seem to apply more to drafted players who have a more sold junior track record of fine play

and i agree with your assessment otherwise

as does wd obviously

but you kinda of used my discussion point as a platform to espouse an unrelated viewpoint

but good on you anyway

[mll]

10 minutes ago, coastal.view said:

i agree with your view point

Baertschi was either mistreated somehow and overcame that all to have a more productive 2nd half to his season

or more likely, as you suggest

he was treated to some real wisdom and forced to add some structure and discipline to his game

in order to allow him to actually break out at this level

wd has a solid reputation of being able to work well with younger players

so i kinda lean to the tough love good coaching explanation myself

Actually not tough love but more patience.  I think he tailors it to the players.

 

However, the more Desjardins got to know Baertschi, the more he saw how hard he worked in practice and how creative he could be. He knew the roster rope had to be longer and needed to know if Baertschi would run with it or choke on it.

“I gave him a bit and he took it — some guys don’t,” added Desjardins. “He was getting 10 minutes and no power play time because he didn’t deserve it and he wasn’t playing great. He took advantage of it. That’s why you have time for guys like that. It wasn’t that he was arrogant, he was more disappointed in himself than I was disappointed. He couldn’t believe how bad he was or what he was doing.

“For a guy like that, if I yell and scream at him when things are going bad, then he never becomes a player. I can’t ride him. He’s not that type of kid. You support and believe in him and he’ll rise to another level. In Calgary, in that environment, he didn’t flourish.”

[mll]

1 minute ago, coastal.view said:

your realize the discussion was very focused on undrafted college free agent forwards

usually fringe talent that went undrafted

and a player who likely had a recent very good year to attract new attention as he had been previously overlooked

your analysis would seem to apply more to drafted players who have a more sold junior track record of fine play

and i agree with your assessment otherwise

as does wd obviously

but you kinda of used my discussion point as a platform to espouse an unrelated viewpoint

but good on you anyway

Sorry about that.  I must have misread.

[oldnews]

1 minute ago, mll said:

Actually not tough love but more patience.  I think he tailors it to the players.

 

However, the more Desjardins got to know Baertschi, the more he saw how hard he worked in practice and how creative he could be. He knew the roster rope had to be longer and needed to know if Baertschi would run with it or choke on it.

“I gave him a bit and he took it — some guys don’t,” added Desjardins. “He was getting 10 minutes and no power play time because he didn’t deserve it and he wasn’t playing great. He took advantage of it. That’s why you have time for guys like that. It wasn’t that he was arrogant, he was more disappointed in himself than I was disappointed. He couldn’t believe how bad he was or what he was doing.

“For a guy like that, if I yell and scream at him when things are going bad, then he never becomes a player. I can’t ride him. He’s not that type of kid. You support and believe in him and he’ll rise to another level. In Calgary, in that environment, he didn’t flourish.”

Nice quotes.  Hadn't seen those comments before.  Bang on.

[cripplereh]

Ownership has more to do with people coming here then not and reason's why younger players do not want to come here is ownership and them wanting the twins to be the stars mainly.I just think the owners need to let the GM do a job he wants,but untill then I agree some players younger one will not want to come here.till the twins retire then this will change as ownership will have to let the GM do his job properly!

[coastal.view]

14 minutes ago, cripplereh said:

Ownership has more to do with people coming here then not and reason's why younger players do not want to come here is ownership and them wanting the twins to be the stars mainly.I just think the owners need to let the GM do a job he wants,but untill then I agree some players younger one will not want to come here.till the twins retire then this will change as ownership will have to let the GM do his job properly!

omg

this is complete speculation on your part

and to suggest that the twins are a negative drawing card to other players in coming to vancouver??

i suggest the twins are iconic players to most young players and most would want to play with them

think of the prospect of playing with gretzky.. i think most players would think they had a wet dream if that prospect were real (granted playing with the sedins is more of playing with a slightly lesser than gretzky figure)

in my view you are pretty far off in left field when it comes to your thinking of what young players think

so i think it is worthwhile to just ignore the rest of what you wrote

[coastal.view]

48 minutes ago, mll said:

Actually not tough love but more patience.  I think he tailors it to the players.

 

However, the more Desjardins got to know Baertschi, the more he saw how hard he worked in practice and how creative he could be. He knew the roster rope had to be longer and needed to know if Baertschi would run with it or choke on it.

“I gave him a bit and he took it — some guys don’t,” added Desjardins. “He was getting 10 minutes and no power play time because he didn’t deserve it and he wasn’t playing great. He took advantage of it. That’s why you have time for guys like that. It wasn’t that he was arrogant, he was more disappointed in himself than I was disappointed. He couldn’t believe how bad he was or what he was doing.

“For a guy like that, if I yell and scream at him when things are going bad, then he never becomes a player. I can’t ride him. He’s not that type of kid. You support and believe in him and he’ll rise to another level. In Calgary, in that environment, he didn’t flourish.”

tough love i say

but i guess it is all just semantics

getting 10 minutes and no power play time? that is more than just being patience

that is sending a tough message in my view

 

[numb3r 16]

Sign the damn contract Hudler