Edler or Tanev

[Fred65]

Edler is 20th in the entire league for ATOI at @ 24.27 the top is Karlson with 28.5. Duncan Keith is 25.1 So Edler really is the go to guy for Vcr. Tanev is 71st in the league with 21.4  Just an aside Gudbranson was 79th with 20.7.

 

Edler leads the team with pts / game 0.38,   Hutton  next was 0.3 and Tanev was 0.26.   Edler & Tanev were both +/- of minus 8, Hutton a minus 21.

 

As the old Joanie Mitchel song said, "You don't know what you've got 'til it's gone"

 

Most it seems suffer from the delusion  that the grass is always greener on the other side. Most teams would want a guy that put up those pts and ice time. In Vcr because he's not the second coming of Jovonoski he ridiculed

[aGENT]

8 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

 

Size and weight don't mean much on physical presence when the player doesn't use them.  Taylor Pyatt. Edler does not play with any sort of intensity.

 

So say our new depth takes some responsibility of Elder.  What are you expecting to come out of that?  What kind of player our you thinking edler becomes? A 50 point player again? A #1 defenseman?  good luck with that.

 

Edler hasn't been the same since Ehrhoff left, and furthermore since Salo left. It was our mistake thinking Edler was the driver of the play and could be expected to continue to drive the play.  But he can't, If you haven't noticed his drop in play and you might want to take another look at the player your watching.

 

 

Actually you didn't.  Does he bring shut down defense? Does he bring Offense? does he bring a intimidation? Does he bring a physical presence, and no standing there looking big doesn't count.

 

 

Speaking of playing like a shadow of his former self, you got Edler, but for some reason the excused are only excepted for Edler. Good for Edler being a +13, he sure lead by example in 2013-14 only separated tanev from a -51 spread. 

 

Funny you pick that season.  In the last 4 years Tanev is a +26.  Mean while no one on our current roster has a worse (+/-) than Edler with his -39.  What a leader.  He's really shown that he can handle those hard minutes.

 

 

 

 

When they do step up, it means it's the end of Edler in a canucks uniform. 

 

 

If you want to a be a top 2 D in the NHL you have to fill a role.  You have to be elite in some area of the game, or at least above average..  What area is Edler above average.  just because he was our #1 D, doesn't mean that's how the league views him.

 

 

Lacking an awful lot of context and straw manning it up there Forsy.

[ForsbergTheGreat]

36 minutes ago, J.R. said:

Lacking an awful lot of context and straw manning it up there Forsy.

Actually no, it's quite clear.

In the last 3 years has the Edler experiment as a #1 D been successful?

Has Edler been elite in any category over the last 3 years?

Would you consider Edler currently a #1 D, by NHL definition (not canucks standards)?

Fast track 1 year, between Edler and Tanev who is more expendable?

 

 

The whole "he'd be a #1 D if he had, (insert a, insert b)" doesn't help his case. #1 D don't need excuses like we are trying to make for Edler as to why he hasn't lived up to #1 D expectations.  It's really simple. He's not a #1 D.  At best he's a #2 to or a solid #3, like i mentioned earlier in this thread.

[aGENT]

Just now, ForsbergTheGreat said:

Actually no, it's quite clear.

In the last 3 years has the Edler experiment as a #1 D been successful?

Has Edler been elite in any category over the last 3 years?

Would you consider Edler currently a #1 D, by NHL definition (not canucks standards)?

Fast track 1 year, between Edler and Tanev who is more expendable?

 

 

The whole "he'd be a #1 D if he had, (insert a, insert b)" doesn't help his case. #1 D don't need excuses like we are trying to make for Edler as to why he hasn't lived up to #1 D expectations.  It's really simple. He's not a #1 D.  At best he's a #2 to or a solid #3, like i mentioned earlier in this thread.

I don't think I've seen anyone claim he's a #1D other than you while making the above straw man arguments.

 

There's been no 'Edler as a #1D experiment', simply a lack of better options. Not sure where you even came up with that 

 

It's pretty clear Edler's a #2D in the NHL but he's still the best the Canucks have and unfortunately that includes awkwardly shoving that square peg in to the round hole that is the Canucks '#1D' slot.

 

I don't even have to fast track a year, I already stated Edler was currently more expendable back on the first couple pages of this thread. His age and our depth of left D make him more expendable. He's still a better D than Tanev though which is the question the thread is supposed to be actually asking.

 

Again, nobody but you is claiming he's a #1D. He'd make a FANTASTIC #2 lined up beside a Karlsson, Subban etc though. If he'd had a guy like that to play with the last ~3 years I doubt this thread even exists as the answer would be so readily apparent it would be laughable.

[5Fivehole0]

4 hours ago, Kokanee king said:

im dancing around, Wow, clueless 

 

Your the one that say Edler is better than Tanev and that edler is better than Gudb yet the only facts you put forward is that Edler has scored a whopping 7.2 goal per year of his 10 year career. 

 

you're the one that compared gudb stats to edler stats even though they were not on the same team or play the same style. The canucks have been a high scoring team for edler entire career except the last 2 or so and gudb has been on the Panthers, enough said. 

 

 

The thread is Edler and Tanev who is better at that is simple just answer the question below and stop avoiding it. 

 

Edler Sbisa or Tanev Sbisa 

 

Answer my question is you are so smart and such an expert.

 

Everyone know the best d-man or the #1 d-man on the team will always match up better with the worst d-man on the team and that is common sense. 

 

edler excells at getting the puck back, possessing the puck, making good break out passes, getting the puck OUT OF YOUR ZONE and driving the offense from the blue line. WOW, PLEASE WATCH THE GAMES. absolutely clueless statement!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

 

Corsi is BS and how the &^@# would a defencive D-man ever get a good Corsi #. again clueless.

 

your a goalie that explains all i need to know. Please stop living in the past!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Maybe you should be out playing Pokemon 

The answer is easy, it's Edler plain and simple

 

Would you trade Edler for Tanev straight across? No 

 

Would you trade Edler for Gudbranson straight across, hell no.

 

Edler Sbisa, everyday. 

 

If a defensive dman is any good, he has a positive corsi, or else he would t be very defensive now would he?

 

Also, if Tanev is so good, why doesn't the team possess the puck and get as many shots on the opposing net vs when Edler is on the ice?

 

Answer my question now. Mr Expert.

[ForsbergTheGreat]

30 minutes ago, J.R. said:

I don't think I've seen anyone claim he's a #1D other than you while making the above straw man arguments.

 

There's been no 'Edler as a #1D experiment', simply a lack of better options. Not sure where you even came up with that 

I made that comment.  Alf disagreed with it..

 

Quote

It's pretty clear Edler's a #2D in the NHL but he's still the best the Canucks have and unfortunately that includes awkwardly shoving that square peg in to the round hole that is the Canucks '#1D' slot.

 

I stated that, alf disagreed with it. 

 

"Do you really think that to state that "the only reason we put Edler in that situation is because etc" is any kind of argument against how important Edler is for this team? "

 

Quote

I don't even have to fast track a year, I already stated Edler was currently more expendable back on the first couple pages of this thread. His age and our depth of left D make him more expendable. He's still a better D than Tanev though which is the question the thread is supposed to be actually asking.

 

Again, nobody but you is claiming he's a #1D. He'd make a FANTASTIC #2 lined up beside a Karlsson, Subban etc though. If he'd had a guy like that to play with the last ~3 years I doubt this thread even exists as the answer would be so readily apparent it would be laughable.

 

I think your mistaken on what your arguing against.  I've been stating that in every one of my posts. I gave reasoning as to why he's not a number one D and shouldn't be consider one, I've pointed out why Edler is not a key player on this team and will likely be moved in the coming year.  Alf was in disagreement making up excuses on why he's a valuable piece to our team, using pre 2012 stats as supporting evidence. 

 

My original reply (to crabcakes) had nothing to do with the Tanev vs Edler debate, just that people severely overate the importance of Alex Edler.  He hasn't played well the last 3-4 years and will be replaced and traded in the very near future.  He doesn't fit the role that has been asked of him and doesn't fill a future need.  That's all i've said, if you want to disagree with that, fine, but I'm not going to make up excuses for his lack of play and our lack of need of him in the upcoming seasons.

[aGENT]

Just now, ForsbergTheGreat said:

I made that comment.  Alf disagreed with it..

 

 

I stated that, alf disagreed with it. 

 

"Do you really think that to state that "the only reason we put Edler in that situation is because etc" is any kind of argument against how important Edler is for this team? "

 

 

I think your mistaken on what your arguing against.  I've been stating that in every one of my posts. I gave reasoning as to why he's not a number one D and shouldn't be consider one, I've pointed out why Edler is not a key player on this team and will likely be moved in the coming year.  Alf was in disagreement making up excuses on why he's a valuable piece to our team, using pre 2012 stats as supporting evidence. 

 

My original reply (to crabcakes) had nothing to do with the Tanev vs Edler debate, just that people severely overate the importance of Alex Edler.  He hasn't played well the last 3/4 years and will be replaced and traded in the very near future.  He doesn't fit the role that has been asked of him and doesn't fill a future need.  That's all i've said, if you want to disagree with that, fine, but I'm not going to make up excuses for his lack of play and our need of him in the upcoming seasons.

Well clearly, you're first mistake was thinking you could have an intelligent debate with a furry muppet 

 

As for your last paragraph (barring perhaps the Torts year where he was FAR from alone and for good reason), I disagree. He has played well given the context of the team, his partner, our top 4 D depth/quality, our erosion of talent, the Sedins aging etc, etc, etc

 

He's been one of the few and best rubber bands just barely holding our popsicle stick D together most of those years. We see the results in his absence last year and his (and others) misuse and poor coaching decisions two years before that. 5th and 6th picks.

 

Now granted, if Gudbranson can come in and take some (most) of that top 4 physicality load from his shoulders and Huttton can relieve some of the offense creation weight as well, we should see a much better d-core (and I'd wager, a 'rejuvenated' Edler) that could see him perhaps become more clearly expendable later this year or next.

 

At that point though we might be back to not wanting to move him though 

[ForsbergTheGreat]

5 minutes ago, J.R. said:

Well clearly, you're first mistake was thinking you could have an intelligent debate with a furry muppet 

 

As for your last paragraph (barring perhaps the Torts year where he was FAR from alone and for good reason), I disagree. He has played well given the context of the team, his partner, our top 4 D depth/quality, our erosion of talent, the Sedins aging etc, etc, etc

 

He's been one of the few and best rubber bands just barely holding our popsicle stick D together most of those years. We see the results in his absence last year and his (and others) misuse and poor coaching decisions two years before that. 5th and 6th picks.

Team depth, has a ton to do with it.  Last year when he went down we didn't have any real reliable depth to help take on those minutes.  Bart, Biega, Webber and a rookie is not considered depth.   But can we say that same about lack of depth this year.  If Edler goes down, do we still crumble?  We might take a small step back, but with our depth this year it's very possible we'd manage.  Agreeing with that statement also is parallel with reducing the Edlers' "importance" factor.

 

 

5 minutes ago, J.R. said:

Now granted, if Gudbranson can come in and take some (most) of that top 4 physicality load from his shoulders and Huttton can relieve some of the offense creation weight as well, we should see a much better d-core (and I'd wager, a 'rejuvenated' Edler) that could see him perhaps become more clearly expendable later this year or next.

 

At that point though we might be back to not wanting to move him though 

But what would his expectations be?  Realistically if Hutton becomes our offensive D, Guddy takes on the hard minutes, what are we expecting from Edler?  A little bit here and there?  We've have to have some sort of expectations or added strength to our D core.  Be it points, physicality, puck carrying, d zone play?  What does a non sedin playing PP edler become?

 

Would we be comfortable with a 5 million cap hit, 20 point D?  We can except Tanev at 20 points because he brings defensive strength, We can except Gudbranson at 20 points because he brings shutdown and physicality.

 

Considering we have a young Tryamkin, and Pedan in the ranks along with Juolevi.  Where does Alex Edler fit.

 

 

[VIC_CITY]

50 minutes ago, 5Fivehole0 said:

The answer is easy, it's Edler plain and simple

 

Would you trade Edler for Tanev straight across? No 

 

Would you trade Edler for Gudbranson straight across, hell no.

 

Edler Sbisa, everyday. 

 

If a defensive dman is any good, he has a positive corsi, or else he would t be very defensive now would he?

 

Also, if Tanev is so good, why doesn't the team possess the puck and get as many shots on the opposing net vs when Edler is on the ice?

 

Answer my question now. Mr Expert.

There isn't a GM in the NHL that would take Edler at his current age and contract over Tanev at his...perhaps some believe he is currently the better player, but that is horrible asset management. Tanev holds significantly more trade value than Edler.

 

Also, advanced stats aren't the end all be all. if you believe in advanced stats then you must think Benning got absolutely schooled in the Gudbranson/McCann deal.

 

[elvis15]

16 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

...

But what would his expectations be?  Realistically if Hutton becomes our offensive D, Guddy takes on the hard minutes, what are we expecting from Edler?  A little bit here and there?  We've have to have some sort of expectations or added strength to our D core.  Be it points, physicality, puck carrying, d zone play?  What does a non sedin playing PP edler become?

 

Would we be comfortable with a 5 million cap hit, 20 point D?  We can except Tanev at 20 points because he brings defensive strength, We can except Gudbranson at 20 points because he brings shutdown and physicality.

 

Considering we have a young Tryamkin, and Pedan in the ranks along with Juolevi.  Where does Alex Edler fit.

Considering Edler had 20 points in 52 games last year, the question is are we comfortable with a 30 point $5M D. Even if he's off the Sedins PP1 unit (say Hutton and five forwards are on that unit) Edler has shown in the past if he has reduced responsibility he can up his game in certain areas like offence. The less he over thinks things while he's playing the better he becomes, and even with less PP opportunities he'd likely create more on that second unit or even strength.

 

Tanev and Gudbranson are likely to get more of the load shorthanded, while Hutton and Edler would see a larger share of power play time. The others will factor in as well (Sbisa and Tryamkin defensively, Larson offensively) while there will be some cross over between the top 4, but it should amount to plenty of chances with reduced responsibility across all areas for Edler.

[elvis15]

16 minutes ago, VIC_CITY said:

There isn't a GM in the NHL that would take Edler at his current age and contract over Tanev at his...perhaps some believe he is currently the better player, but that is horrible asset management. Tanev holds significantly more trade value than Edler.

 

Also, advanced stats aren't the end all be all. if you believe in advanced stats then you must think Benning got absolutely schooled in the Gudbranson/McCann deal.

 

That's a pretty sweeping statement, and one not likely based in reality. While there might be a preference among a lot of them for the slightly cheaper and much younger Tanev, there will certainly be situations where Edler is the better fit for a number of teams, and you have to consider what it'd cost (or the likelihood you could even convince us) to trade for either player.

[aGENT]

30 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

Team depth, has a ton to do with it.  Last year when he went down we didn't have any real reliable depth to help take on those minutes.  Bart, Biega, Webber and a rookie is not considered depth.   But can we say that same about lack of depth this year.  If Edler goes down, do we still crumble?  We might take a small step back, but with our depth this year it's very possible we'd manage.  Agreeing with that statement also is parallel with reducing the Edlers' "importance" factor.

 

 

But what would his expectations be?  Realistically if Hutton becomes our offensive D, Guddy takes on the hard minutes, what are we expecting from Edler?  A little bit here and there?  We've have to have some sort of expectations or added strength to our D core.  Be it points, physicality, puck carrying, d zone play?  What does a non sedin playing PP edler become?

 

Would we be comfortable with a 5 million cap hit, 20 point D?  We can except Tanev at 20 points because he brings defensive strength, We can except Gudbranson at 20 points because he brings shutdown and physicality.

 

Considering we have a young Tryamkin, and Pedan in the ranks along with Juolevi.  Where does Alex Edler fit.

 

 

The same thing he's always done. Be a 30+ point, two way #2D with some physicality and offense who helps eat minutes.

 

A guy, who with less weight on his shoulders, with those changes, I'm guessing will have an even better year playing simpler, smarter hockey instead of stretching himself too thin trying to do everything by himself.

[ForsbergTheGreat]

45 minutes ago, elvis15 said:

Considering Edler had 20 points in 52 games last year, the question is are we comfortable with a 30 point $5M D. Even if he's off the Sedins PP1 unit (say Hutton and five forwards are on that unit) Edler has shown in the past if he has reduced responsibility he can up his game in certain areas like offence. The less he over thinks things while he's playing the better he becomes, and even with less PP opportunities he'd likely create more on that second unit or even strength.

 

37 minutes ago, J.R. said:

The same thing he's always done. Be a 30+ point, two way #2D with some physicality and offense who helps eat minutes.

 

A guy, who with less weight on his shoulders, with those changes, I'm guessing will have an even better year playing simpler, smarter hockey instead of stretching himself too thin trying to do everything by himself.

Edler has 2 NHL seasons where he's put up over 20 EV points.  Take him off the first unit and he's no longer a 30 point D. For Reference, Hutton put up 18 EV points last year.  Edler has only beat that EV production in 2 seasons of his entire NHL career.  I agree that he does play better when he has less expectations but replace him on the #1 unit and zero chance he's still a 30 point guy. 

 

I'm curious to how you two are coming to the conclusion that if edler off the #1 unit he is still a 30 point player?  Stats and his past, don't really back this up.  Will he get less fluster and have an improved play?  We hope, but we've haven't seen that from Edler in a long time and really nothing in the last 4 years gives us reason to believe otherwise.    And that is the exact definition of overrated. A misconception that ones value is greater than reality. 

[elvis15]

5 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

 

Edler has 2 NHL seasons where he's put up over 20 EV points.  Take him off the first unit and he's no longer a 30 point D. For Reference, Hutton put up 18 EV points last year.  Edler has only beat that EV production in 2 seasons of his entire NHL career.  I agree that he does play better when he has less expectations but replace him on the #1 unit and zero chance he's still a 30 point guy. 

I disagree. If he's not a 30 point guy after playing a majority of the season even without always being on PP1 (but likely being on PP2) he's at least very close to that. I doubt he drops to a 20 point guy as if he had little to no opportunities outside of even strength.

[Junkyard Dog]

I'd take Tanev every time. Regardless of organizational depth.

[aGENT]

5 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

 

Edler has 2 NHL seasons where he's put up over 20 EV points.  Take him off the first unit and he's no longer a 30 point D. For Reference, Hutton put up 18 EV points last year.  Edler has only beat that EV production in 2 seasons of his entire NHL career.  I agree that he does play better when he has less expectations but replace him on the #1 unit and zero chance he's still a 30 point guy. 

 

 

I'm not remotely convinced Hutton will be on PP1 anyway. While he excels has moving the puck and creating, neither his wrist or slap shot are yet at PP1 level IMO nor do I expect they'll want to saddle him with the expectations being on PP1 entails given how they prefer to shelter guys.

 

I'm guessing PP1 will see Edler and Larson as the D-pair for the majority of this year barring injuries. Hutton and likely a forward on PP2

[ForsbergTheGreat]

Just now, elvis15 said:

I disagree. If he's not a 30 point guy after playing a majority of the season even without always being on PP1 (but likely being on PP2) he's at least very close to that. I doubt he drops to a 20 point guy as if he had little to no opportunities outside of even strength.

Based on what though? Are his even strength points going to rise?  If he's no longer the top offensive D, he's likely not part of the top oz zone starts and what then happens to his EV #'s, they drop too.

 

If all edler is, (based on past history) a 16-18 point EV strength player.  Realistically how many points can you expect him to get from the #2 unit? 12? or probably closer to 6 or less?

 

 

[ForsbergTheGreat]

4 minutes ago, J.R. said:

I'm not remotely convinced Hutton will be on PP1 anyway. While he excels has moving the puck and creating, neither his wrist or slap shot are yet at PP1 level IMO nor do I expect they'll want to saddle him with the expectations being on PP1 entails given how they prefer to shelter guys.

 

I'm guessing PP1 will see Edler and Larson as the D-pair for the majority of this year barring injuries. Hutton and likely a forward on PP2

To start the year sure.  But Hutton is a QB not the trigger man.  Like Ehrhoff, who also didn't have a strong wrister or slap shot.  He has the vision to work with the twins in making plays happen.

[elvis15]

4 minutes ago, J.R. said:

I'm not remotely convinced Hutton will be on PP1 anyway. While he excels has moving the puck and creating, neither his wrist or slap shot are yet at PP1 level IMO nor do I expect they'll want to saddle him with the expectations being on PP1 entails given how they prefer to shelter guys.

 

I'm guessing PP1 will see Edler and Larson as the D-pair for the majority of this year barring injuries. Hutton and likely a forward on PP2

Agreed on Hutton, who may not start the year there but certainly won't be the shooting option at the point for most of the year unless he improves a lot in that department. He's great at carrying the puck out, but has to work on finding how to utilize his skillset around shooting at the NHL level. 

 

Edler and Larsson could get a look first, as could Hutton as an option replacing someone in that pairing.

 

 

1 minute ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

Based on what though? Are his even strength points going to rise?  If he's no longer the top offensive D, he's likely not part of the top oz zone starts and what then happens to his EV #'s, they drop too.

 

If all edler is, (based on past history) a 16-18 point EV strength player.  Realistically how many points can you expect him to get from the #2 unit? 12? or probably closer to 6 or less?

Say he plays another 20 games over his totals last year. At his same offensive pace alone that'd put him at 29 points. Add to that a better structured workload and then subtract the premium of PP1 over PP2 and it likely evens out fairly close so long as his 5 on 5 minutes and zone start percentages aren't negatively impacted too much outside of the PP. Clearly, if the PP1 is on fire and plays/scores a lot, that'd impact his chances there, but I'm trying to stay fairly close to what we saw much of last year (with a little factor for possible personnel differences).

 

He'll likely play a little less PK so we'll see his minutes come down slightly but that should keep him fresher and open up more opportunities for offence unless someone else really gets the lions share over him. I don't think Hutton and Larsson will take over offensively that much, and Tanev and Gudbranson may get some but will have a lot of defensive duties as well.

 

So, his event strength could rise but is more likely to stay about the same, and his PP could be similar but may drop. 30 isn't a big stretch, but to say he'll equal his total from last year in probably 20 more games just isn't that believable without more of a change than just moving from PP1 to PP2.

[aGENT]

17 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

To start the year sure.  But Hutton is a QB not the trigger man.  Like Ehrhoff, who also didn't have a strong wrister or slap shot.  He has the vision to work with the twins in making plays happen.

I seem to recall Ehrhoff having a pretty good wrister (while also having a knack for getting it through). His slap shot wasn't very good if my memory serves though. But he knew JUST when to pass to Edler to let a bomb fly instead.

 

Actually a shame Hutton and Edler are both lefties. They'd probably make a pretty good pair otherwise.