Article - Leafs' reno on pace, while Canucks lagging behind

[Rob_Zepp]

11 hours ago, CanadianRugby said:

I'm sorry Benning supporters but you don't get to say as recently as last year that:  "If you bottom out you'll end up like Edmonton and suck for 10 years, a winning environment is crucial for our rookies."  Go on to praise the acquisitions of Sutter, Eriksson, Vrbata and Miller as being an important part of turning this team around and say that Benning doesn't need top picks to rebuild. 

 

To now be all positive about bottoming out:  "The thought of watching some of the young players the team has next year is indeed intriguing and even exciting.   At fifth overall, they will get a legitimate prospect.."  Benning blew it, traded picks away to stay a playoff team and we got neither playoff success nor did we build a new core capable of doing anything.

 

As far as "the turnaround can be relatively quick."  That's exactly what Benning said when he was hired, "I love this core, this is a team we can turn around real quick."  This isn't going to be successful, let alone quick.  Unless Benning trades for a bunch of draft picks, hits home runs on a few of them and continues to draft near the top of the draft for a couple more years.  

Chill dude.  I am not a "Benning supporter".   I am an observer of the game and comment accordingly.   I didn't praise any of those acquisitions so quote someone else for negative rants.   I am not being "all positive" I am making comments about how some luck (lottery) and skill (picks and moves) are required and so far, I am not convinced the Canuck's management have either but I see signs of hope on the latter.  

 

Your hate-on for Benning is obvious and that is fine but go and rant at people who are in love with him.  I was largely "meh" when he was hired and still am about the same but I do like some of the more recent moves and the stockpiling of talent in general including this upcoming draft that will bring volume at least.

 

Oh, and BTW, he cannot "trade for a bunch of picks" as he really doesn't have much that is tradeable.   Maybe two or three assets that would bring any interest unless you are talking about trading some of the youth.   

[ForsbergTheGreat]

2 hours ago, 189lb enforcers? said:

Luck did not get them their plethora of high end talent in the last few drafts, just the one player, like you say. 

 

As I've said before, landing Jack instead of Connor or Laine instead of AM, etc, still places these young cores into the elite category, reminiscent of Pittsburgh and Chicago's rebuilds of core players.

 

Edmonton wouldn't have got Eichel they would have go strome had they not go lucky and jump 2 spots to get mcdavid.  And Winnipeg won the 2nd overall pick.  There's no proof that the leaf would have won to get laine.  We just watched the Av's drop to 4 this year.  Do leafs make the playoffs this year with poolparty instead of matthews?

 

Again go back to the hawks, 2007 hawks finished 25th overall and "got lucky" to win the lottery, jump 5 spots and get kane.  Had they not "got lucky" they would be sitting with Gagner or Alzner.  are the hawks the same cup winning team replacing Kane with Gagner or Alzner?  Luck is what turns teams from bottom feeders to cup contenders. 

 

if you're not lucky to land those gen talents you become Arizona

6 top 10 picks in the last 10 years and 7 misses post seasons.

or the sabres 4 top 10 picks (2 second overalls) in last 4 years and zero playoff appearances

Or the panthers 10 top 10 picks (7 top 5 picks) in the last 17 years and a total of 13 playoff games. 

 

[Baggins]

1 hour ago, 189lb enforcers? said:

Luck did not get them their plethora of high end talent in the last few drafts, just the one player, like you say. 

 

As I've said before, landing Jack instead of Connor or Laine instead of AM, etc, still places these young cores into the elite category, reminiscent of Pittsburgh and Chicago's rebuilds of core players.

 

Unlike Baggins, I believe that it's the core that gets rebuilt in a rebuild, not the periphery of players like Barecheese or Vey, so the mention of trading quality picks for warm bodies during critical rebuild drafts is an awful strategy. There are plenty of guys overseas or in college besides the unsigned, but drafted kids to fill the age gap with. No need to spend picks, imo. 

 

Who here is brave enough to project Oli's future? If one of you wants to say what you think he will be here in 3-5 years, please do. Will he be better than Morgan Rielly, a comparable 5th OA pick? I think this thread is the place to discuss these things. 

 

 

 

 

TO, like Chicago and Pittsburgh, already had the support players in place, who take longer to develop, prior to drafting their elite talent. Getting elite talent without support players in place is what caused Edmonton to take so long with so many high picks. Getting the support pieces in place first is why Chicago and Pittsburgh have been contenders for so long. The supporting cast takes longer to develop than elite talent. Putting the supporting cast in place (developing) before the elite talent means the elite talent being more effective longer to compete for a cup. Then all you need to do is keep replacing supporting cast while enjoying a decade of elite talent leading the way. We wasted the WCE prime trying to build a supporting cast. Then we wasted years of the Sedins trying to build a supporting cast. Go ahead and tell I'm wrong but you can't see the forest for the trees. Elite talent won't make you a contender on their own. They still need a team behind them.

 

Btw, the "quality picks" are in the top half of the first round. From there it's rolling the dice. You're doing well if you manage to get a Baertschi and a Vey in the the same second round. A 50% result on 2nd round picks is good drafting. But you'd typically wind up waiting 3 to 5 years before finding out you got a Baertschi and a Vey. You seem to believe all those picks will be impact players that step right in. Most first rounders don't manage that feat. Nobody drafts that well. Nobody gets a 50% success rate in the 2nd round year after year. Never mind that 50% being "impact" players. That's pure fantasyland.

 

Sorry. I prefer the idea of getting that elite talent at the end of the rebuild. That way they're contending for the cup in their early 20's and doing it for a decade. Rather than doing it bass ackwards and getting the elite talent first and then waiting for the supporting cast to show up and develop into their roles and having a two or three year window to contend.

[189lb enforcers?]

3 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

 

Edmonton wouldn't have got Eichel they would have go strome had they not go lucky and jump 2 spots to get mcdavid.  And Winnipeg won the 2nd overall pick.  There's no proof that the leaf would have won to get laine.  We just watched the Av's drop to 4 this year.  Do leafs make the playoffs this year with poolparty instead of matthews?

 

 

 

Do they with Tkachuck or Laine?

 

You can deconstruct the draft to suit your narrative all you like. Crystal ball-it, go ahead. I get your point, which is fine, but at what point will you just concede the point that the rebuilds out there worked because those teams went all in, unlike the Canucks who finally, and I mean finally, chose to throw in the towel when the top picks are comparably weak to other years. Some strategy. 

 

You make you own luck.

 

The Canucks haven't done that yet. Their accidental tank job is just salt in the wound to those who saw this window close, the rebuild refusal and the eventual bottoming out, in a draft like this one, of all drafts. I don't mean to be nagative, but a spade is a spade. Somebody has to call it! 

[189lb enforcers?]

14 minutes ago, Baggins said:

TO, like Chicago and Pittsburgh, already had the support players in place, who take longer to develop, prior to drafting their elite talent. Getting elite talent without support players in place is what caused Edmonton to take so long with so many high picks. Getting the support pieces in place first is why Chicago and Pittsburgh have been contenders for so long. The supporting cast takes longer to develop than elite talent. Putting the supporting cast in place (developing) before the elite talent means the elite talent being more effective longer to compete for a cup. Then all you need to do is keep replacing supporting cast while enjoying a decade of elite talent leading the way. We wasted the WCE prime trying to build a supporting cast. Then we wasted years of the Sedins trying to build a supporting cast. Go ahead and tell I'm wrong but you can't see the forest for the trees. Elite talent won't make you a contender on their own. They still need a team behind them.

 

Btw, the "quality picks" are in the top half of the first round. From there it's rolling the dice. You're doing well if you manage to get a Baertschi and a Vey in the the same second round. A 50% result on 2nd round picks is good drafting. But you'd typically wind up waiting 3 to 5 years before finding out you got a Baertschi and a Vey. You seem to believe all those picks will be impact players that step right in. Most first rounders don't manage that feat. Nobody drafts that well. Nobody gets a 50% success rate in the 2nd round year after year. Never mind that 50% being "impact" players. That's pure fantasyland.

 

Sorry. I prefer the idea of getting that elite talent at the end of the rebuild. That way they're contending for the cup in their early 20's and doing it for a decade. Rather than doing it bass ackwards and getting the elite talent first and then waiting for the supporting cast to show up and develop into their roles and having a two or three year window to contend.

DNR

Im not going to bother, Baggins. You're the guy who can't admit when you're wrong. For a guy who mostly sits on the fence here, parroting the management's logic, I don't get your stance on things as a fellow fan, presumably, wanting the same glorious result. 

 

As you know, imo, the rebuild was was slow to come. We can't even agree on that so I don't really care what you may post if our principles remain that polarized. I don't read them anymore. Feel free to reciprocate. 

 

[189lb enforcers?]

BPA, ring a bell Baggins?

I don't get you at all, but credit you for being very good at spin.

[ForsbergTheGreat]

1 minute ago, 189lb enforcers? said:

Do they with Tkachuck or Laine?

 

You can deconstruct the draft to suit your narrative all you like. Crystal ball-it, go ahead. I get your point, which is fine, but at what point will you just concede the point that the rebuilds out there worked because those teams went all in, unlike the Canucks who finally, and I mean finally, chose to throw in the towel when the top picks are comparably weak to other years. Some strategy. 

You make you own luck.

Speaking of crystal balls,  The oilers must have known that they would win the McJesus sweep stakes....That's not called making you own luck, that's call having horseshoes. 

1 minute ago, 189lb enforcers? said:

The Canucks haven't done that yet. Their accidental tank job is just salt in the wound to those who saw this window close, the rebuild refusal and the eventual bottoming out, in a draft like this one, of all drafts. I don't mean to be nagative, but a spade is a spade. Somebody has to call it! 

The canucks have put them self in the exact same positions that the past cup winning teams have done during their rebuild.  Until you realize the only thing that separates those franchise is luck, you are crying over something that a team had zero control over. Think about how much of a fine line it is that your upset about. If canucks had gotten "LUCKY" and drafted Matthews last year,  instead of you stating JB sucks, it would be you clamoring over how JB is awesome and did exactly what you've been saying for him to do.  Your praise vs hate on a guy is purely based on something he has zero control over.  Think about that for a second. 

[189lb enforcers?]

Just now, ForsbergTheGreat said:

Speaking of crystal balls,  The oilers must have known that they would win the McJesus sweep stakes....That's not called making you own luck, that's call having horseshoes. 

The canucks have put them self in the exact same positions that the past cup winning teams have done during their rebuild.  Until you realize the only thing that separates those franchise is luck, you are crying over something that a team had zero control over. Think about how much of a fine line it is that your upset about. If canucks had gotten "LUCKY" and drafted Matthews last year,  instead of you stating JB sucks, it would be you clamoring over how JB is awesome and did exactly what you've been saying for him to do.  Your praise vs hate on a guy is purely based on something he has zero control over.  Think about that for a second. 

The only thing I'd change was when the team decided on a true rebuild. This TDL's results should have happened the first summer Benning arrived and then at least they'd have been in a position to get... lucky.

Not much of a fine line, really. 

[ForsbergTheGreat]

12 minutes ago, 189lb enforcers? said:

The only thing I'd change was when the team decided on a true rebuild. This TDL's results should have happened the first summer Benning arrived and then at least they'd have been in a position to get... lucky.

Not much of a fine line, really. 

So really what would you have done differently?  What were the realistic goals that could have been achieve from 2014 on. 

 

Stating getting McDavid isn't a realistic goal since there were two teams clearly with worse rosters and clearly not about to get out tanked (in the end, oilers one anways).

 

I'm actually curious, what would have been your game plan if you had taken over the roster?

 

 

 

[Baggins]

34 minutes ago, 189lb enforcers? said:

DNR

Im not going to bother, Baggins. You're the guy who can't admit when you're wrong. For a guy who mostly sits on the fence here, parroting the management's logic, I don't get your stance on things as a fellow fan, presumably, wanting the same glorious result. 

 

As you know, imo, the rebuild was was slow to come. We can't even agree on that so I don't really care what you may post if our principles that polarized. I don't read them anymore. Feel free to reciprocate. 

 

Well go ahead and tell I'm wrong that Chicago and Pittsburgh both had their support pieces in place before adding their elite talent. Am I wrong that the elite talent came last for Chicago and Pittsburgh resulting in a lengthy period of contending for them? Am I wrong that all those two teams have had to do since is replace support players while the elite talent led the way continuing to contend? Am I wrong that TO went from bottom feeder to playoff team in a single year because they added their elite talent last? Go ahead and keep telling me I'm wrong. The proof is there. Elite players are nothing without the role players in support when it comes to contending.

 

Here's the grand total of NHL games played by all second rounders selected in the 2014 draft: 143 games played among 6 players. Meaning 24 picks from 3 years ago are yet to even step on NHL ice. Never mind becoming "impact players". There's your quality picks we missed out on. Instead we have Baertschi on his way to becoming a quality veteran. Quick pass me a kleenex I'm crying over those picks traded. Well, I'm crying because I'm laughing so hard. Now if you want something to laugh about 78 of those 143 games were played by Dvorak who put up 33 points this season, That was Arizona's 58th overall pick. But if they actually knew he was "the guy" of the second round why did they select a different center 43rd that hasn't played an NHL game yet? Crapshoot.

 

Now I'm done. Feel free to put me on ignore if you can't see the logic in what I'm saying.

[HI5]

I'm still pretty new around here but legitimate  question.. is this guy (@189lb enforcers?) serious?

[CeeBee51]

45 minutes ago, HI5 said:

I'm still pretty new around here but legitimate  question.. is this guy (@189lb enforcers?) serious?

Well, you could ask him I suppose. or maybe you are in a round about way? 

[oldnews]

16 hours ago, CanadianRugby said:

I know you're not stupid enough to believe that argument

I'm not sure I can say the same about you and your having already ordained the Leafs the next Blackhawks.

I think you probably actually believe that - and don't realize what a fools game that is.

[Gaudette Celly]

8 hours ago, 189lb enforcers? said:

You make you own luck.

 

So you should head down to the 7-11 and grab a single 6/49 ticket to score that $30mil.  Let us know how your manufactured luck works out.

 

3 hours ago, HI5 said:

I'm still pretty new around here but legitimate  question.. is this guy (@189lb enforcers?) serious?

Yes, if you believe in magic and find cohesive arguments unnecessary.

[WeneedLumme]

3 hours ago, oldnews said:

I'm not sure I can say the same about you and your having already ordained the Leafs the next Blackhawks.

I think you probably actually believe that - and don't realize what a fools game that is.

Now ON, you know that's not true, he's not that stupid. He's just looking for whatever pretext he can manufacture to hate on the Canucks, whether it's the players, the coaches, the management or the owners. Before I put him on ignore, I seem to recall him even hating on the city and the ocean. He's one of the more dedicated of the haters.

[oldnews]

20 hours ago, HI5 said:

I'm still pretty new around here but legitimate  question.. is this guy (@189lb enforcers?) serious?

Serious - about being a draft lottery champion bandwagon jumper.

Whichever flavor of the week it is - Laffs, Coilers - he's on that wagon.

[189lb enforcers?]

I'm offended.

Its great to have such a following though.

 

[CanadianRugby]

On ‎2017‎-‎05‎-‎10 at 3:13 PM, oldnews said:

I'm not sure I can say the same about you and your having already ordained the Leafs the next Blackhawks.

I think you probably actually believe that - and don't realize what a fools game that is.

I never ordained anyone.  I compared their rebuilds because of the similarities of stockpiling picks and drafting high multiple years in a row.  Coming into this season I had no idea just how successful the Leafs rebuild would actually be.  Nobody thought they'd have 3 out of the top 4 scoring rookies or that Matthews would be the 3rd or 4th teenager EVER to score 40.  I'm also not a Leaf fan, I went into the playoffs cheering for Ottawa.  

 

So don't accuse me or ridiculous claims. 

 

You're the one that claimed coming into this season that Vancouver's rebuild would be ahead of Toronto's because "tanking is for losers" and "they'll be just like Edmonton."  

 

You also claimed you don't even care if Vancouver gets young players because you're not a paedophile.  Now that's some strong hockey logic 

[CanadianRugby]

On ‎2017‎-‎05‎-‎10 at 6:52 PM, WeneedLumme said:

Now ON, you know that's not true, he's not that stupid. He's just looking for whatever pretext he can manufacture to hate on the Canucks, whether it's the players, the coaches, the management or the owners. Before I put him on ignore, I seem to recall him even hating on the city and the ocean. He's one of the more dedicated of the haters.

Well for once at least part of your post makes sense.  I do hate the management for the first time since the Keenan era.  

[oldnews]

18 minutes ago, CanadianRugby said:

You also claimed you don't even care if Vancouver gets young players because you're not a paedophile.  Now that's some strong hockey logic 

The usual fail.

 

Those are some ludicrous claims which don't resemble anything I've ever posted.

Evidence that you're incapable of a conversation or distinguishing who says what.

 

Just quote something and save us the time of your confused, ludicrous paraphrasing.

 

Hint - try the search button and find out who actually made the pedophile comment - and take it up with them -  don't put those straw words in my mouth.