[Proposal] Brandon Sutter for Ryan Nugent-Hopkins

[Alflives]

Sutter is better (right now) than RNH, and he costs A LOT less.  Why would we help out the Oilers by taking a bad contract, while improving their team too?

[E. Lindros]

5 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Sutter is better (right now) than RNH, and he costs A LOT less.  Why would we help out the Oilers by taking a bad contract, while improving their team too?

Sutter is better defensively, without scouring for stats, that sounds correct. Rnh was being used in a sutter type role with the oilers i belief, sorry i dont follow them.

 

Rnh is far superior as an offensive player compared to sutter.

 

Simple answer we would gain a more offensive skilled center, for a team absolutely lacking the ability to score recently. We need that skillset over a pk specialist.

 

We arent winning a cup, id rather have a more skilled offensive rnh to watch nightly than a shoot first pass last sutter. Downgrade in defensive ability maybe but a local kid who has a much higher ceiling offensive i take every day over a sutter on my team.

 

This is a smart move on by both teams. Canucks gain offense skill, oiler gain a veteran 2 way center.

 

As for who fills sutters role. It will have to be done by committee, hes that means horvat will be relied on, so what though if he wants big bucks and long term commitment lets see if he can handle it. High end 2 way centers who get paid do it, if bo believes he can be that good lets see it.

 

Also its not like horvat is going to be out for the full 2min of every pk. Rnh and gaunce maybe others can help fill the pk duties.

 

Doubt this trade happens, but i do this from the canucks aspect for sure. Down the road we can look for a good 2 way center when we become relevant again, if no one in our organization can step in to fill a similar role.

[Alflives]

4 minutes ago, E. Lindros said:

Sutter is better defensively, without scouring for stats, that sounds correct. Rnh was being used in a sutter type role with the oilers i belief, sorry i dont follow them.

 

Rnh is far superior as an offensive player compared to sutter.

 

Simple answer we would gain a more offensive skilled center, for a team absolutely lacking the ability to score recently. We need that skillset over a pk specialist.

 

We arent winning a cup, id rather have a more skilled offensive rnh to watch nightly than a shoot first pass last sutter. Downgrade in defensive ability maybe but a local kid who has a much higher ceiling offensive i take every day over a sutter on my team.

 

This is a smart move on by both teams. Canucks gain offense skill, oiler gain a veteran 2 way center.

 

As for who fills sutters role. It will have to be done by committee, hes that means horvat will be relied on, so what though if he wants big bucks and long term commitment lets see if he can handle it. High end 2 way centers who get paid do it, if bo believes he can be that good lets see it.

 

Also its not like horvat is going to be out for the full 2min of every pk. Rnh and gaunce maybe others can help fill the pk duties.

 

Doubt this trade happens, but i do this from the canucks aspect for sure. Down the road we can look for a good 2 way center when we become relevant again, if no one in our organization can step in to fill a similar role.

RNH is more skilled offensively for sure, but recent performance shows a serious decline in his numbers given a third line role.   So we would be trading third line centre for third line centre who both have similar offensive numbers playing that role.  We lose that trade for sure.  Could RNH produce?  Even getting top ice time with Eberle and Hall he was only a 50 point player, and their team was horrific.  He's a local boy, and we like that, but I don't see the value outweighing the contract. I'm not a big Dutter fan either, but he's cheaper.

[higgyfan]

42 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Sutter is better (right now) than RNH, and he costs A LOT less.  Why would we help out the Oilers by taking a bad contract, while improving their team too?

I don't agree with you that Sutter is a better player than RNH, but I do agree that Ryan is not a player for the Canucks.

 

I think RNH plays a fairly complete game; both offensively and defensively.  The sad thing is that he had his best stats when he was 18-20yrs old.  It looks like Ryan is yet another player that the Oilers rushed into playing and it had a negative effect on his development.  Imo, he could have become a much better player.

 

I hope he gets moved to another team; maybe a change of scenery would help. 

[J.I.A.H.N]

55 minutes ago, Alflives said:

RNH is more skilled offensively for sure, but recent performance shows a serious decline in his numbers given a third line role.   So we would be trading third line centre for third line centre who both have similar offensive numbers playing that role.  We lose that trade for sure.  Could RNH produce?  Even getting top ice time with Eberle and Hall he was only a 50 point player, and their team was horrific.  He's a local boy, and we like that, but I don't see the value outweighing the contract. I'm not a big Dutter fan either, but he's cheaper.

I too, do not think RNH should be a Canuck, at least for long! But I do think if we can get RNH for Sutter, but we should flip him.................My opinion in that some teams do not have what Edmonton needs so they can not directly trade with that team, but...............I see no problem with obtaining RNH , then flipping to a team like Montreal, Phili, Ottawa or Dallas, who all either have older veteran centers or older veteran centers on expiring contract......or simply just need the up grading........To get what we want, we may hold a little cap 1 to 2 million.......

 

But the return could be greater than the sum of the parts......

 

Trade #1 Brandon Sutter + (Pedan/McEneny/Dorsett)                to Edmonton for  RNH

 

Trade #2  RNH 20% retained  + J Subban         to         Montreal for 2018 1st and  Juulsen

 

People question Sutters value, but he does a lot of little things right, is a face off man, can play pp, and can go up and down the line up as a winger. Is he a high end offensive juggernaut ?....No, but he a very versatile player, and will thrive on a club with more mature players, who are on a playoff run. Teams like that need players like him.

 

RNH on the other hand needs to be put in a Offensive role and in a environment that will enhance his skills......I think Montreal and the other teams listed have the ability to help him do that......

 

The reason I picked Montreal is they can't wait.....their window is now and RNH fits

 

Just a thought

[JM_]

On 7/13/2017 at 6:34 PM, Art Vandelay said:

I would argue Nugent-Hopkins is a better 2-way center than sutter, PK aside.

 

So saying that, the value is really far off with your reasoning. Add in that he is a much better player offensively, and he is younger. 

I'm not sure what you're reasoning is on this one. Fortunately Dobber has a nice 'compare a player' tool that shows where these players differ: http://frozenpool.dobbersports.com/frozenpool_compare.php?compare[]=2890&compare[]=1861&sent=go&games=2016-2017%3AR%3A99

 

Clearly the 'nuge is a better offensive player, he produces more points per game (although interestingly Sutter has a higher shooting percentage), but respectfully he is in no way a better 2-way player. Sutter is a cavernous 11% better on face-offs, hits harder, blocks more shots, fewer giveaways and takes harder match-ups.

 

Trading for RNH would certainly make us a more offensive team in the short term, but its the wrong move long term. Sutter is perfect for us to handle harder shut down minutes which will let Bo and the other younger guys to continue to develop. RNH simply won't allow that to happen, imo anyway. 

[E. Lindros]

We have guru manny malhotra here so maybe he could help him out with faceoffs?

 

Regardless, rnh could also be used as a lw, our left side is not that deep and whenever daniel retires that leaves a massive hole. 

 

Also he is 4 years younger than sutter. 

 

We are in a rebuild, no playoffs let alone cup contention for a while. Rather watch more skilled offensive hockey during the dog years.

 

 

[terrible.dee]

I don't think this proposal is far fetched at all, in fact, it's a deal I expect to happen (And if it doesn't I'm sure it's being discussed)

 

Makes too much sense for the Oilers not to try for it, and none of this "No trade in the division" crap, The Oilers aren't scared of us and they aren't scared of Hopkins, together, they would consider us no threat at all.

 

I kinda like it, I feel Nuge MUST have more to give than what he's shown so far, and I can't wait for Sutter and his balls to be gone

[mll]

1 hour ago, terrible.dee said:

I don't think this proposal is far fetched at all, in fact, it's a deal I expect to happen (And if it doesn't I'm sure it's being discussed)

 

Makes too much sense for the Oilers not to try for it, and none of this "No trade in the division" crap, The Oilers aren't scared of us and they aren't scared of Hopkins, together, they would consider us no threat at all.

 

I kinda like it, I feel Nuge MUST have more to give than what he's shown so far, and I can't wait for Sutter and his balls to be gone

Oilers have added Strome - he's expected to be their C3.  They want RNH in a more offensive role.  MacLellan said that they see Draisaitl as a forward and don't feel obligated to play him at C.  If they decide to trade RNH they will likely have several teams calling. 

[Rob_Zepp]

Any trade of veteran assets by the Canucks that doesn't bring back prospects and/or picks would be curious to understand at this point of their development.   A hybrid development mode makes sense for all teams but they have sufficient veterans from incumbents plus the FA signings - now is the time to keep filling that cupboard.

[JM_]

2 hours ago, Rob_Zepp said:

Any trade of veteran assets by the Canucks that doesn't bring back prospects and/or picks would be curious to understand at this point of their development.   A hybrid development mode makes sense for all teams but they have sufficient veterans from incumbents plus the FA signings - now is the time to keep filling that cupboard.

for sure, anything JB does has to have picks/prospects for this kind of move. EDM would love to have Sutter, he fits the 3C role so much better than RHN. But maybe they over value RNH? I'm sure they'd do it 1 for 1 but then who takes over for Sutter? Gagner? I don't see EDM sending us assets either on this one. 

 

I suppose if JB see's RNH as more of a top 6 winger vs a 3C maybe, but honestly I don't think there's extra pieces to make this work. 

[canuckmen84]

Anything Edmonton would want for RNH would be an overpayment by us, the fact is there's cheaper and better options out there. There is no room for him and his 6 million dollar contract even at the exspense of Sutter.

 

Oils GM "Hey guys..we have this player that has been injury pron, gets payed too much for too long and put up 43 pts last year, He's been disappointing for us as a 1st overall pick and we are done with him...any takers?" 

Yup sounds about right, no thanks!

[HockeydownUnder]

11 hours ago, Alflives said:

RNH is more skilled offensively for sure, but recent performance shows a serious decline in his numbers given a third line role.   So we would be trading third line centre for third line centre who both have similar offensive numbers playing that role.  We lose that trade for sure.  Could RNH produce?  Even getting top ice time with Eberle and Hall he was only a 50 point player, and their team was horrific.  He's a local boy, and we like that, but I don't see the value outweighing the contract. I'm not a big Dutter fan either, but he's cheaper.

RNH was injured a lot in the last year hall was on the team. He had 56 points two years in a row before that though. I like the qualities Sutter has and his cheap cap hit for the Canucks. RNH is a superior player though and considerably younger than Sutter

[Alflives]

12 hours ago, S'all Good Man said:

for sure, anything JB does has to have picks/prospects for this kind of move. EDM would love to have Sutter, he fits the 3C role so much better than RHN. But maybe they over value RNH? I'm sure they'd do it 1 for 1 but then who takes over for Sutter? Gagner? I don't see EDM sending us assets either on this one. 

 

I suppose if JB see's RNH as more of a top 6 winger vs a 3C maybe, but honestly I don't think there's extra pieces to make this work. 

Another poster suggested we get a third team involved.  The Oilers get Sutter, we get RNH, but them move him to a third team (Habs?) for the picks/prospects we need for our rebuild.

[JM_]

3 hours ago, Alflives said:

Another poster suggested we get a third team involved.  The Oilers get Sutter, we get RNH, but them move him to a third team (Habs?) for the picks/prospects we need for our rebuild.

but MTL would need to put him in as a winger, they have better centre's already. I could be wrong but I don't see RNH as very easy to trade to us or anyone else. 

[Nuxfanabroad]

Kinda bored so..would anyone do something like this?..

 

Suts & Huts

 

for Nuge & Sekeras(out 'til Feb)

 

^ This saves them Oil about 4.4 mill AAV/ on 2 skaters

 

I'd also like to send Edler to Mtl or Ott(pkg to get a 2018 1st). With Sekeras, Del Zot , Wiercoch, & youngins' our LH-D's could tread water until next season, when OJ joins.

[JM_]

11 minutes ago, Nuxfanabroad said:

Kinda bored so..would anyone do something like this?..

 

Suts & Huts

 

for Nuge & Sekeras(out 'til Feb)

 

^ This saves them Oil about 4.4 mill AAV/ on 2 skaters

 

I'd also like to send Edler to Mtl or Ott(pkg to get a 2018 1st). With Sekeras, Del Zot , Wiercoch, & youngins' our LH-D's could tread water until next season, when OJ joins.

So we make their D group younger, ours older and for 2 years longer than we have Edler, give them a better shut down 3C.... why are we doing this again? 

[ForsbergTheGreat]

25 minutes ago, S'all Good Man said:

but MTL would need to put him in as a winger, they have better centre's already. I could be wrong but I don't see RNH as very easy to trade to us or anyone else. 

They do?

[Nuxfanabroad]

Just now, S'all Good Man said:

So we make their D group younger, ours older and for 2 years longer than we have Edler, give them a better shut down 3C.... why are we doing this again? 

Mostly because we'd want to nab a younger, more highly skilled RNH. I'd see this as landing RNH & Gud from what was Kesler(of course many other ingreds were tossed in).

 

I think Nuge is a worthwhile gamble with where we're at. By the time his deal is up, Petterson is 22, & prob ready to roll. If Nuge is mediocre, we can then easily move on. He might be a 60~65 pt C, simply stuck behind other stars.

 

As for Hutton, seems a good kid, no doubt. We need more grit/size/heavy slappers back there, & I'll bet OJ & Brise can go on to fill the role just as well. I'd be fine giving Pedan/McEneny/Holm time to show us, early on. Again, we don't expect much this yr anyhow. Sekeras would LTIR 'til almost deadline. Next season we can absorb this extra cap with ease.

[JM_]

3 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

They do?

Do you really see RNH taking Pacioretty's spot? Or Chucky?