Gilman with the best Horvat insight yet

[terrible.dee]

7 minutes ago, Rob_Zepp said:

Uh, how do you know there is any "hardball" being played?   You have some inside information?   

 

You don't have a clue, nor does anyone else (including me) in this thread as to the nature of the negotiation.   Chances are they are waiting for a few other RFAs to sign that one/both sides feel is the true barometer or it could be vacation schedules of Hornet's agent didn't mesh with availability of Canuck staff - believe it is or not, that happens more than people realize.    

 

Pretty sure that Canuck management have a good idea what the player is worth to their team and pretty good idea Bo Hornet's agent has a pretty good idea what his client is worth.   The season starts in October.    This happens with RFAs all the time.   

Well well, if it ain't my best buddy on CDC

 

Missed ya' snuggle buddy!

 

Now...you wouldn't be trying to BAIT me would you, y'know with that their abusive tone you're taking?

 

Will probably be a ban for you, can't be all abusive like that y'know, but i'll PM stealthnuck about ya, and ask that he goes easy on you,

 

just cause we're buds and all.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[mll]

12 hours ago, Rob_Zepp said:

So, why the bias against Horvat?   

 

Bergeron last year - 79 GP  and had 21 goals and 53 points of which 36 were at 5x5 (17 PP points) and averaged 19:25 ice time

 

Toews last year - 72 GP and had 21 goals and 58 points of which 41 were at 5x5 (also had 17 PP points) and averaged 20:09 per game

 

Horvat last year - 81 GP and had 20 goals and 52 points of which 42 were 5x5 (10 PP points) and averaged 18:01 per game

 

Horvat outscored both 5x5, produced as good or better on points per 60 in spite of limited PP time and he played with lesser players in terms of incidental points.    Why the "without offence" comment when he is at same level as them?

5v5 is not total minus PP - Horvat actually has two SH goals.   Also the EV numbers on the NHL stats include extra attacker, empty nets, etc and Horvat has a few of those.  

If you only want to compare 5v5.  Horvat has 34pts in 81 games.  Toews 33pts in 72 games and Bergeron 26pts in 79 games.

 

[JM_]

12 hours ago, lmm said:

that is not an answer

At least I give you something to work with.

Try making a statement with substance.

try matching the statements I made earlier if you can't make up your own.

It is really no fun swapping one liners given without thought.

ciao

ok champ. thanks for playing. But here's an idea... go and find the statements from Benning about how much respect he has for Stan Bowman and how he builds teams, that might give you some clues. 

[Alflives]

7 hours ago, mll said:

5v5 is not total minus PP - Horvat actually has two SH goals.   Also the EV numbers on the NHL stats include extra attacker, empty nets, etc and Horvat has a few of those.  

If you only want to compare 5v5.  Horvat has 34pts in 81 games.  Toews 33pts in 72 games and Bergeron 26pts in 79 games.

 

Did Toews and Bergeron start the season on the fourth line, playing with plugs?  

[Rush17]

17 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Did Toews and Bergeron start the season on the fourth line, playing with plugs?  

no but its fair to say Horvat didn't have the top matchup guys on him all season either.  when he did he went scoreless in the last 17 games.  but the team was terrible so who knows lol

[Alflives]

28 minutes ago, Rush17 said:

no but its fair to say Horvat didn't have the top matchup guys on him all season either.  when he did he went scoreless in the last 17 games.  but the team was terrible so who knows lol

I think Bo had a lot of opportunities to score in those games, but (maybe lucky for our draft position?) was snake bit.  I don't think Bo is a number one centre, and shouldn't be paid like one, but I do believe he is (will be) a top 10 in the league number two, and should be paid in that range: 5-6 million over six to eight years.  

[IBatch]

9 minutes ago, Alflives said:

I think Bo had a lot of opportunities to score in those games, but (maybe lucky for our draft position?) was snake bit.  I don't think Bo is a number one centre, and shouldn't be paid like one, but I do believe he is (will be) a top 10 in the league number two, and should be paid in that range: 5-6 million over six to eight years.  

I don't think when he was drafted the club had him in mind for anything above a second or even third line center.  So far he has improved his skating to the point that he's exceeded original expectations, especially with the amount he's achieved in such a short time.  It will be interesting to see how he handles the first line role once the Sedins retire and until hopefully Pettersson takes it over.  His contract I'm sure will reflect that and in the end I'm pretty confident he will more than earn it.  Without him we would be in a lot of trouble.

[dpn1]

15 minutes ago, Alflives said:

I think Bo had a lot of opportunities to score in those games, but (maybe lucky for our draft position?) was snake bit.  I don't think Bo is a number one centre, and shouldn't be paid like one, but I do believe he is (will be) a top 10 in the league number two, and should be paid in that range: 5-6 million over six to eight years.  

I totally agree but I thought that put him between 4.9 and 5.3 mill. but we are not too far apart on the the money side and I like a 6 year deal.

[Alflives]

3 minutes ago, dpn1 said:

I totally agree but I thought that put him between 4.9 and 5.3 mill. but we are not too far apart on the the money side and I like a 6 year deal.

Maybe that's the stumbling point?  Bo's asking for 6 and the team is offering 5?

[Alflives]

10 minutes ago, IBatch said:

I don't think when he was drafted the club had him in mind for anything above a second or even third line center.  So far he has improved his skating to the point that he's exceeded original expectations, especially with the amount he's achieved in such a short time.  It will be interesting to see how he handles the first line role once the Sedins retire and until hopefully Pettersson takes it over.  His contract I'm sure will reflect that and in the end I'm pretty confident he will more than earn it.  Without him we would be in a lot of trouble.

I think opposing teams will dictate whether Bo is our number one centre by the matchups they give him.  It would be great if Bo and Pettersson can become good enough to both require top line matchups.  

[dpn1]

I am not sure if I am right but from the beginning I thought this contract would take until the end of Aug.  This is a big contract that will take time,  Trying to talk to people who may be on holidays.  Delays are to be expected on both sides.  I understand our desire to see it done now (I feel it to).

[Rollieo Del Fuego]

1 hour ago, Rush17 said:

no but its fair to say Horvat didn't have the top matchup guys on him all season either.  when he did he went scoreless in the last 17 games.  but the team was terrible so who knows lol

He went without a goal but he had points in his last 17 games....most of it was due to a new winger every game near the end of the season...and a few posts/crossbars hit.....

[TheGuardian_]

1 hour ago, IBatch said:

I don't think when he was drafted the club had him in mind for anything above a second or even third line center.  So far he has improved his skating to the point that he's exceeded original expectations, especially with the amount he's achieved in such a short time.  It will be interesting to see how he handles the first line role once the Sedins retire and until hopefully Pettersson takes it over.  His contract I'm sure will reflect that and in the end I'm pretty confident he will more than earn it.  Without him we would be in a lot of trouble.

Even a lot of hockey "experts" pegged him as a marginal 2nd line center, they did have him as a superior 3rd line center though.

 

Gilman's comments seem to indicate that they were moving Kesler and moving up in the draft was get replacements, for Kesler or the Sedins since he mentioned Barkov and others were at the top of the list.

 

With or without him the team is in trouble especially if the Sedins retire.

 

 

[IBatch]

20 minutes ago, TheGuardian_ said:

Even a lot of hockey "experts" pegged him as a marginal 2nd line center, they did have him as a superior 3rd line center though.

 

Gilman's comments seem to indicate that they were moving Kesler and moving up in the draft was get replacements, for Kesler or the Sedins since he mentioned Barkov and others were at the top of the list.

 

With or without him the team is in trouble especially if the Sedins retire.

 

 

Not too sure that we are in dire straits given the prospect pool Benning's managed to create and the additions of Bear, Granlund and Stetcher and the pleasant surprise in Hutton.  The biggest what if in my mind is what would happen to the team of the Sedins retire after this year. 

It's doubtful that Pettersson will be ready for anything but a try out by then and I don't think we will get a draft pick that could step right in and replace either Daniel or Henriks points.

 

Best case scenario is Boeser will be ready to replace Daniels production, Horvat Henriks and that Pettersson will be ready for second line duties and one of Dahlen, Goldobin, L.E. or even Lind can step up.  Otherwise we might be in for three or four more years of bottom dwelling until we hit gold. 

 

I think it's possible things will work out for the forward group on two years, it's our defense that has too many question marks, same with goaltending.  

[PlayingBurke]

With the drafting of Pettersson, I would wager the Canucks are internally debating what Horvat's value is as a 1B (second line centre). Add in his likely hood of killing penalties and taking defensive draws, what is that value. Furthermore, they have to consider the CAP and whether it will increase or decrease over the next four or five seasons. The Canucks are going to have a lot of really good young guys wanting money and they do not want to find themselves in early cap problems. 

[TheGuardian_]

21 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Not too sure that we are in dire straits given the prospect pool Benning's managed to create and the additions of Bear, Granlund and Stetcher and the pleasant surprise in Hutton.  The biggest what if in my mind is what would happen to the team of the Sedins retire after this year. 

It's doubtful that Pettersson will be ready for anything but a try out by then and I don't think we will get a draft pick that could step right in and replace either Daniel or Henriks points.

 

Best case scenario is Boeser will be ready to replace Daniels production, Horvat Henriks and that Pettersson will be ready for second line duties and one of Dahlen, Goldobin, L.E. or even Lind can step up.  Otherwise we might be in for three or four more years of bottom dwelling until we hit gold. 

 

I think it's possible things will work out for the forward group on two years, it's our defense that has too many question marks, same with goaltending.  

One thing fans should consider is not how good these players are on his team, half the group are elderly, rookies or AHL players.

 

I dare say that if 10 prospects can challenge for a spot then it isn't showing strength of the roster, it is showing the opposite, weakness.

Granlund was a win for Benning, Sven to me is still marginal and now may have concussion issues, 3 last season and the last one came very easily.

 

Goalie equipment is to be reduced again this year so an uptick in goal production may not be the same indicator for improvement as the last decade or so.

 

This team is quickly getting into the Edmonton dilemma, playing prospects early to protect jobs. Soon the mentors could/will be gone, players I thought could be mentors besides the Sedins were Burrows and Hansen, I'm not sure Eriksson or Edler fit those roles and soon they might/could be all there is. Once that happens.....well then it is trap, trap, trap or rushing players. Now some players can step right in without hurting them but time will be against this management group now as they enter their fourth year of tenure.

[mll]

3 hours ago, Alflives said:

Did Toews and Bergeron start the season on the fourth line, playing with plugs?  

Only one game.  These numbers are not 'against' Horvat.  His numbers rank him 80ish in the league at 5v5 in P/GP and P60 (minimum 40 games) - best on the team with Baer.  They are also the only two regular Fs who have been on the ice for more goals scored in favour of the team vs against at 5v5. 

 

His line actually was not clicking before one of the plugs got added back to his line.  I think his line struggled down the stretch mostly because they lost Burrows.  He was great at helping recoup the puck. 

[Tortorella's Rant]

Just pay him what he wants. What are you going to do, not sign him? LOL good luck selling that one. He's got you by the balls, so deal with it

[IBatch]

25 minutes ago, PlayingBurke said:

With the drafting of Pettersson, I would wager the Canucks are internally debating what Horvat's value is as a 1B (second line centre). Add in his likely hood of killing penalties and taking defensive draws, what is that value. Furthermore, they have to consider the CAP and whether it will increase or decrease over the next four or five seasons. The Canucks are going to have a lot of really good young guys wanting money and they do not want to find themselves in early cap problems. 

The CAP won't go down despite some doom sayers promoting such.  Adding another American team that is supposed to make more income than the Stanley Cup champs, Trump's rocky administration starting to boost the Canadian dollar and a decent chance ARI or CAR will be located to a better market AND the addition ( and please God the final and last team) of the 32 team in a better than average hockey market, should all help boost revenues and reduce losses.

 

Within the next five years it's likely we will have a 32 team league and one relocation.  The high Canadian dollar and consistently healthy revenues kept salaries climbing at over ten percent a year during the last serious economic downturn, probably at an unsustainable rate, any CAP reductions we see over the next five years will average out to a few points above inflation...it's just always been this way.  Revenue sharing throughout the league and having way more American teams works to balance things out.  

 

Hopefully the NHL and or the NHLPA doesn't get greedy if things are tough the next couple years and go to war again.  Another lock out could ruin what has been the stablest and healthiest period the NHL has seen, even though the economy has been in the sh#&ter for part of that stretch.  I will never forgive Bettman despite all the good business he's given the owners, league and even the fans of new markets..if he can't work with the NHLPA for the fourth time in a row it's time for new leadership.

 

Edit:. The team will also have 14 million dollars to work with once the Sedins retire, this should be plenty of money to sign three or four players coming out of their entry level contracts...or it's only enough to sign two we are laughing as they would  be doing awfully well...

 

Also be the time we are competitive again Elder and even L.E. will be done and or of possible bought out which is another 11 million to work with.  Markstrom too, same with Sutter...another 8 million or so.  If you add it all up we will have lost 6 players eating up approx 33 million, an average of around 5.5 per...that should be enough to replace the Sedins with 60-70point players, a very good goalie, and the top defensive pairing.  I don't think we will have any issues in the long run as long as Benning continues to sign guys to reasonable stipends like he did this summer.  

[TheGuardian_]

4 minutes ago, Tortorella's Rant said:

Just pay him what he wants. What are you going to do, not sign him? LOL good luck selling that one. He's got you by the balls, so deal with it

They should definitely not do that. There have been players, not Horvat, on teams that rewarded too much for too long. Edmonton gave Horcoff a huge increase after 3 decent seasons and got bit, it is already wait and see with the Eriksson contract, 6 mil a year for 40 point seasonal average?

 

The Nucks could hold a fine line, but they are going to get burned if they don't make something happen. Right now IMO the deal is already done they just want to hype fan anticipation so when the deal is announced it carries the media away from other less than desirable insights.