McDavid or Petterson & Horvat

[iinatcc]

21 hours ago, cory40 said:

The Canucks are looking pretty good in the middle! Would you give Boeser who is a solid ppg player when healthy, Might even be 1.2 ish. And Horvat is close to 1 ppg player. McDavid is good but struggles to put up top best player in the world points. So far Matthews looks better in that regards. But I am betting Elias with weight on and a little more stable base will be the closest to 2 ppg since the Gretzky era!

"Best player in the World" points? I would think two consecutive Art Ross puts you in that category.

 

Plus McDavid's team does have Center depth in RNH and Draisitl 

[TheGuardian_]

7 hours ago, spook007 said:

5th year of rebuild?

 

While I don't think anyone denies that TO is at least 2 years ahead of us, I still find it funny that people can say a team that has been drifting in obscurity, suddenly only has been  rebuilding for 5 years... you may make a case if you say 5 years of rebuilding after the previous rebuilds failed.

 

Alternatively, does this mean, If Canucks got rid of most of our players and held on to only Horvat, BB and EP our rebuild would have started 16 month ago?

 

How about rebuild under the changed management then since Shanahan.

 

It is impossible to determine where the team would have been had they not signed Miller, Vrbata, Eriksson, traded for Sutter and traded Burrows, Hansen, Higgins, Hamhuis and Tanev earlier. Yes they would have been worse by a few positions in the standings but what could/would they have got in return that much faster. Instead the team traded away draft picks. That is the past now but learn from it, now the team needs 3 more impact players in the prospect pool, players so good they don't need to go to the AHL.

1 hour ago, IBatch said:

You started but you’ve left out Hyman and Johnsson, two other drafted players playing meaningful minutes.  Not sure if that fits into what your getting at given what year they were picked up...the biggest difference between the two teams is when TO started their rebuild is a point of debate.  Some can say when Burke started his five year plan which would put them in Oiler territory for length of rebuild.  I like to think they started when the Gilmour team dissolved...just because it’s funnier and the Sundin teams never did much either (although they did like to play spoiler to OTT who actually had a very good team) and since then we’ve had two teams that were considered contenders (ok I’m been gracious with the WCE team, only two years media talked about them as a team that could win a cup, the Sedin was a contending team).

 

To me what this post shows is that we need more high end players to compete as a contender.  That’s more than obvious if you take WNP and TB and compare rosters too.  Hopefully we can come in like WNP has the last two years after a few more solid drafts.  Have to admit TOs two best moves were winning the draft and Mathews, and signing Tavares though.  Their team would look a lot different with Puljajarvi (4th was their highest odds that year, just like what happened to COL) and no Tavares if he stayed in NYI.  Still not bad, but not doing so good either.

 

 

What was seen under the failing TO plans prior to Shanahan was the same thing the Canucks were doing up to last year, putting bandaid on top of bandaid trying to make the playoffs and reluctant to move or trade veterans, plans of making the playoffs while handcuffing themselves in the cap world, just like Linden/Benning did only the Canucks were much worse without trying to be.

Even Buffalo could be said to have started with the all out tank in the McDavid draft. Buffalo is going to be a fantastic team very soon they traded away so many vets for draft picks they are still paying off, this year alone they have up to three 1rst round picks from not being afraid to trade.

[Westcoasting]

12 minutes ago, TheGuardian_ said:

How about rebuild under the changed management then since Shanahan.

 

It is impossible to determine where the team would have been had they not signed Miller, Vrbata, Eriksson, traded for Sutter and traded Burrows, Hansen, Higgins, Hamhuis and Tanev earlier. Yes they would have been worse by a few positions in the standings but what could/would they have got in return that much faster. Instead the team traded away draft picks. That is the past now but learn from it, now the team needs 3 more impact players in the prospect pool, players so good they don't need to go to the AHL.

What was seen under the failing TO plans prior to Shanahan was the same thing the Canucks were doing up to last year, putting bandaid on top of bandaid trying to make the playoffs and reluctant to move or trade veterans, plans of making the playoffs while handcuffing themselves in the cap world, just like Linden/Benning did only the Canucks were much worse without trying to be.

Even Buffalo could be said to have started with the all out tank in the McDavid draft. Buffalo is going to be a fantastic team very soon they traded away so many vets for draft picks they are still paying off, this year alone they have up to three 1rst round picks from not being afraid to trade.

I think the best year for Toronto's rebuild was the year they fired Carlysle, traded Clarkson, and then fired every coach and manager and scout they had and started over. I think 2015? Also hiring Babcock, Lucky Lou etc.  None of those guys get hired under a Burke regime, has to be the Shanaplan. Going by this theory that puts our rebuild starting last year with hiring Travis Green, not trading for or signing ridiculous free agent vets ( Ericsson). This year sticking with young developing players etc and the players signed off season are meat and potatoes guys.

[IBatch]

2 hours ago, TheGuardian_ said:

How about rebuild under the changed management then since Shanahan.

 

It is impossible to determine where the team would have been had they not signed Miller, Vrbata, Eriksson, traded for Sutter and traded Burrows, Hansen, Higgins, Hamhuis and Tanev earlier. Yes they would have been worse by a few positions in the standings but what could/would they have got in return that much faster. Instead the team traded away draft picks. That is the past now but learn from it, now the team needs 3 more impact players in the prospect pool, players so good they don't need to go to the AHL.

What was seen under the failing TO plans prior to Shanahan was the same thing the Canucks were doing up to last year, putting bandaid on top of bandaid trying to make the playoffs and reluctant to move or trade veterans, plans of making the playoffs while handcuffing themselves in the cap world, just like Linden/Benning did only the Canucks were much worse without trying to be.

Even Buffalo could be said to have started with the all out tank in the McDavid draft. Buffalo is going to be a fantastic team very soon they traded away so many vets for draft picks they are still paying off, this year alone they have up to three 1rst round picks from not being afraid to trade.

I agree that Bennings mandate to re-tool was both doomed to failure and cost us at least two years of re-building, but that was all about respecting the Sedins more than anything, and giving them as many shots as possible to win if they could.  I’d say the actual rebuild started when we traded Burrows and Hansen, those were the last pieces we could possibly trade (we Tanev maybe), the rest (Edler and the Sedins) were with us until the end so to speak.  At least Benning managed to create a decent pool during the re-tool stage, we got Boeser after the year we lost to CAL in the first round, not bad.   

 

Also get what your saying about TOs timeline with their rebuild re-setting when Shanny took over. 

 

The best possible scenario for us would have been trading the Sedins five or six years ago, it wasn’t in the cards so we have what we have, and it isn’t so bad, just needs a few more blue chip pieces, hopefully we get those over the next two drafts and we should be in a good way.  Then some tweaks and maybe we can contend with this core, which would be the first time in our history that we’ve managed that.

[The Lock]

I feel like Horvat and Petey would make for the foundation a more "complete" team. We'd be solid up the center whereas, McDavid's just one guy (albeit who impacts as if he's a few guys). So just considering it's a team sport, I would go with our guys; however, I wouldn't be complaining the other way either as there's more potential to get another Horvat than another McDavid.

[spook007]

15 minutes ago, IBatch said:

I agree that Bennings mandate to re-tool was both doomed to failure and cost us at least two years of re-building, but that was all about respecting the Sedins more than anything, and giving them as many shots as possible to win if they could.  I’d say the actual rebuild started when we traded Burrows and Hansen, those were the last pieces we could possibly trade (we Tanev maybe), the rest (Edler and the Sedins) were with us until the end so to speak.  At least Benning managed to create a decent pool during the re-tool stage, we got Boeser after the year we lost to CAL in the first round, not bad.   

 

Also get what your saying about TOs timeline with their rebuild re-setting when Shanny took over. 

 

The best possible scenario for us would have been trading the Sedins five or six years ago, it wasn’t in the cards so we have what we have, and it isn’t so bad, just needs a few more blue chip pieces, hopefully we get those over the next two drafts and we should be in a good way.  Then some tweaks and maybe we can contend with this core, which would be the first time in our history that we’ve managed that.

Sedins did not want to be traded. Nobody knows how much they werecasked about this. Saying one thing in the press and what goes on behind the scenes doesn’t always match up. 

I think Benning did, what he could with the hand, he was dealt... 

anyway I agree we need a fee more pieces, but if Trym comes back I would settle for a big tough forward... santa I’m taking to you...

in a few years when BB and EP matures together with hopefully Hughes, I think we have a very good chance...

[spook007]

3 hours ago, TheGuardian_ said:

How about rebuild under the changed management then since Shanahan.

 

It is impossible to determine where the team would have been had they not signed Miller, Vrbata, Eriksson, traded for Sutter and traded Burrows, Hansen, Higgins, Hamhuis and Tanev earlier. Yes they would have been worse by a few positions in the standings but what could/would they have got in return that much faster. Instead the team traded away draft picks. That is the past now but learn from it, now the team needs 3 more impact players in the prospect pool, players so good they don't need to go to the AHL.

What was seen under the failing TO plans prior to Shanahan was the same thing the Canucks were doing up to last year, putting bandaid on top of bandaid trying to make the playoffs and reluctant to move or trade veterans, plans of making the playoffs while handcuffing themselves in the cap world, just like Linden/Benning did only the Canucks were much worse without trying to be.

Even Buffalo could be said to have started with the all out tank in the McDavid draft. Buffalo is going to be a fantastic team very soon they traded away so many vets for draft picks they are still paying off, this year alone they have up to three 1rst round picks from not being afraid to trade.

Yeah water under the bridge... 

We got to keep drafting well, but I think that in a couple of years with a FA signing or Trym coming back, I see us being able to compete. EP, Quinn and BB justvneeds some seasoning first. 

[Ballisticsports.]

19 minutes ago, spook007 said:

Yeah water under the bridge... 

We got to keep drafting well, but I think that in a couple of years with a FA signing or Trym coming back, I see us being able to compete. EP, Quinn and BB justvneeds some seasoning first. 

Tree coming back would be nice

Was just thinking of Luc Bourdon too, His age would have been between Edler and Tanev- Wow how time flies

Hopefully we will be strong at all positions at young ages and not waste our forward stars talents like Edmonton looks to be doing

[spook007]

6 minutes ago, ba;;isticsports said:

Tree coming back would be nice

Was just thinking of Luc Bourdon too, His age would have been between Edler and Tanev- Wow how time flies

Hopefully we will be strong at all positions at young ages and not waste our forward stars talents like Edmonton looks to be doing

Spot on....

yeah Bourdon. How times flies...

[The Great Canucks]

Horvat and Pettersson >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Everyone else

 

Suck it, haters!

[cory40]

10 hours ago, iinatcc said:

"Best player in the World" points? I would think two consecutive Art Ross puts you in that category.

 

Plus McDavid's team does have Center depth in RNH and Draisitl 

Last year McDavid didn't put up points when the Oilers needed him. Waited till the games were easier and the Oil were making golf plans> This year looking very similar to last. Like I said Mcdavid better win it now because Elias won't let the other players stay as close!

[fanfor42]

9 hours ago, Westcoasting said:

I think the best year for Toronto's rebuild was the year they fired Carlysle, traded Clarkson, and then fired every coach and manager and scout they had and started over. I think 2015? Also hiring Babcock, Lucky Lou etc.  None of those guys get hired under a Burke regime, has to be the Shanaplan. Going by this theory that puts our rebuild starting last year with hiring Travis Green, not trading for or signing ridiculous free agent vets ( Ericsson). This year sticking with young developing players etc and the players signed off season are meat and potatoes guys.

The best year for Torontos rebuild was drafting Matthews. The best year for Vanvouvers rebuild was drafting Pettersson. 

[Westcoasting]

9 minutes ago, fanfor42 said:

The best year for Torontos rebuild was drafting Matthews. The best year for Vanvouvers rebuild was drafting Pettersson. 

Sorry that was a typo, i was meaning to say the first year for T.O's rebuild... but the Vancouver year works out the same! Trading Burrows and Hansen, firing Willie (Trevors buddy) and drafting Petterson is a huge turning point (year) in the rebuild process. I really think at the start those guys were thinking they could make a couple key signings and have a playoff team and then build from there.

[Westcoasting]

35 minutes ago, cory40 said:

Last year McDavid didn't put up points when the Oilers needed him. Waited till the games were easier and the Oil were making golf plans> This year looking very similar to last. Like I said Mcdavid better win it now because Elias won't let the other players stay as close!

It's funny that the NHLPA members didn't see it that way and named him MVP for the second year in a row for the Lindsay. I think that trophy speaks volumes as it's not the reporters and media picking a winner its the guys on the ice! Just like when Naslund won it.

[Ballisticsports.]

2 hours ago, cory40 said:

Last year McDavid didn't put up points when the Oilers needed him. Waited till the games were easier and the Oil were making golf plans> This year looking very similar to last. Like I said Mcdavid better win it now because Elias won't let the other players stay as close!

if only hockey was a one man sport, 

The best team wins, not the best player

[riffraff]

On 12/24/2018 at 7:14 PM, -AJ- said:

I think Petey's ceiling is probably about 90% of McDavid and Horvat certainly makes up more than 10% of McDavid, so our guys definitely come out on top for me here.

Solid math.

[TheGuardian_]

21 hours ago, The Lock said:

I feel like Horvat and Petey would make for the foundation a more "complete" team. We'd be solid up the center whereas, McDavid's just one guy (albeit who impacts as if he's a few guys). So just considering it's a team sport, I would go with our guys; however, I wouldn't be complaining the other way either as there's more potential to get another Horvat than another McDavid.

Draistl is no slouch, he would be our Horvat with Elias being our McD,

20 hours ago, spook007 said:

Spot on....

yeah Bourdon. How times flies...

Imagine us that have been patient and waited for prospects and the team to mature 9 to 10 times now. How many times does someone need to be taught the same lessons?

Each time one of these SUPERIOR humans called GM's starts, the same mistakes creep up. It is like every new GM starts from the same square over and over again and each time has to learn how to do the job. Meanwhile some of us fans that have been involved in hockey to high levels can actually remember some of the past lessons and mistakes. So it is very irritating to watch the fans treated like mushrooms and idiots, "go stand in the corner and wait to be called".

 

What I see now, after wasting 4 years, now, is a chance to suffer one more year (after this one) and count on the NHL and Bettman to do as they always have and cancel the CBA year or shorten it AND change the draft process to help bottom teams more BECAUSE many big market US teams are going into rebuilds.

 

The big chance I see is a modified draft that takes multiple years into account, not just the current season and enhances the bottom 3 teams for the top 3 draft picks AND the lost season/draft will use the previous seasons to determine that year's draft. AS SUCH the Canucks could easily be in for an additional top 3 pick because they currently hold the worst record in the entire NHL over the last 3 seasons and this one so far. 

 

This from a "patient" fan that has waited 9 or 10 times, make trades this season, move vets. Next year play more draft picks, they have to learn sometime (as good a reason lose and not really tanking), get this year and next season's top 7 draft picks with a possible bonus of a CBA season top 3 as well.

 

That would be 3 more top 7 picks (more if trades are made) with only one more (after this one) season of the kids "learning". I think the Hughes brothers may want to play one season together in college.

 

Be patient, - Luc was drafted 13 years ago, and the Canucks started their first rebuild 48 years ago, time flies. 

[TheGuardian_]

12 hours ago, ba;;isticsports said:

if only hockey was a one man sport, 

The best team wins, not the best player

No "I" in team.

[Nucker 67]

I'd trade Horvat and Boeser for McDavid, but leave Petey alone.

[spook007]

54 minutes ago, TheGuardian_ said:

Draistl is no slouch, he would be our Horvat with Elias being our McD,

Imagine us that have been patient and waited for prospects and the team to mature 9 to 10 times now. How many times does someone need to be taught the same lessons?

Each time one of these SUPERIOR humans called GM's starts, the same mistakes creep up. It is like every new GM starts from the same square over and over again and each time has to learn how to do the job. Meanwhile some of us fans that have been involved in hockey to high levels can actually remember some of the past lessons and mistakes. So it is very irritating to watch the fans treated like mushrooms and idiots, "go stand in the corner and wait to be called".

 

What I see now, after wasting 4 years, now, is a chance to suffer one more year (after this one) and count on the NHL and Bettman to do as they always have and cancel the CBA year or shorten it AND change the draft process to help bottom teams more BECAUSE many big market US teams are going into rebuilds.

 

The big chance I see is a modified draft that takes multiple years into account, not just the current season and enhances the bottom 3 teams for the top 3 draft picks AND the lost season/draft will use the previous seasons to determine that year's draft. AS SUCH the Canucks could easily be in for an additional top 3 pick because they currently hold the worst record in the entire NHL over the last 3 seasons and this one so far. 

 

This from a "patient" fan that has waited 9 or 10 times, make trades this season, move vets. Next year play more draft picks, they have to learn sometime (as good a reason lose and not really tanking), get this year and next season's top 7 draft picks with a possible bonus of a CBA season top 3 as well.

 

That would be 3 more top 7 picks (more if trades are made) with only one more (after this one) season of the kids "learning". I think the Hughes brothers may want to play one season together in college.

 

Be patient, - Luc was drafted 13 years ago, and the Canucks started their first rebuild 48 years ago, time flies. 

Maybe ...

What I see is another two years and we will have a team that will be properly ready for play off hockey. 

With new blood in the pipeline, thus being able to keep us under the cap, whatever it may be... This is how good team have been able to remain relevant. 

We have lots of talent in the making, and we are in no particular hurry for them to make it... We may actually be better of with some of them taking 4 to 5 years to develop...

 

We may trade off some veterans for additional picks, although unless it's high picks, I don't see the point. The usual suspects 'Tanev, Edler (does he/doesn't he), Sutter, Baertchi... What are they going to fetch?

A free agency fwd with size, and maybe a top 4 FA defender w size/ Trym, and we are just about there provided Quinn lives up to his billing...

 

Anyway Guardian, this has become sidetracked from the original discussion, so I'll leave it at that. Horvat and Pettersson all the way...