[Trade] Lightning trade J.T. Miller to Canucks for Marek Mazanec, 2019 3rd-round pick, 2020 conditional 1st-round pick

[CaptainLinden16]

Just now, gurn said:

But Schenn is former first round pick, and you were just telling me how valuable first rounders are, so how could he possibly be AHL material?

I get jokes.  I actually don't care about the pick itself.  I care about what the pick could have become in a trade.  I would hold that damn thing out until I got my RHD.  

[CaptainLinden16]

Just now, gurn said:

Nashville and Vancouver may end up competing for a "crossover" play off spot while NJ won't?

come on man.  Now you are really grasping for straws here.  You sell to the highest bidder for something you are trying to get rid of.

[higgyfan]

1 minute ago, 189lb enforcers? said:

I’m not going to go into detail here, but I think you owe it to yourself here to look up Tampa’s draft history. They are perhaps the very best at hitting gold, late, mid and whenever they make a pick.

 

This isn’t a subject opinion, it’s a fact. Do your homework. 

This is very true...they often pick up quality players in the later rounds all the time.

 

This part isn't directed at you 189, as I have no idea what your thoughts are on the Miller trade.

 

Whatever TB pick; even if it's in the #16-22 range, they will get a very good prospect.  This isn't necessarly true for our Canucks, so it really doesn't have much impact on the value of the Miller trade. 

 

The worst case scenario is if the Canucks do not make the playoffs in the 20-21 season and the Lightning end up with a nice lotto pick.  I would be surprised if our team is not in the playoffs by then.

[Losing With Pride]

18 minutes ago, grandmaster said:

You never answered the question. How is Tampa going to find a versatile 50 point producer at his age and cap hit? It’s impossible. That’s why you can’t answer it.

 

As for your question, I didn’t pay attention to his playoffs this year. He wasn’t the only one that may have struggled, show, ask your friend and captain of that team. The guy who made double the salary...

Oh my bad. I forgot to answer your question. You know they could potentially trade that first round pick they acquired from us for a player that puts up 50 points that is better suited for that team. What does a 1st rounder potential lottery pick get you at the deadline?  

 

Either way you’re not going to agree with my perspective on this trade. So we can agree to disagree. And in 2 years one of us can most likely say I told you so. 

 

 

[Gurn]

3 minutes ago, CaptainLinden16 said:

You sell to the highest bidder for something you are trying to get rid of.

You might do that, others may not.

[CaptainLinden16]

Just now, aGENT said:

What if Buffalo's price was the same 1st, Woo and Virtanen. Still upset?

yes because the 1st has the least value possible right now.  It's value increases as you get closer to the 2020 draft.  There are 60 RHD playing top 4 hockey in the NHL.  I can't imagine that between now and June 2020, the Canucks couldn't have used that pick to pickup a quality RHD.  

 

I really like Risto, but I can understand if the ask was too high.  But you don't have a gun up to your head, you can wait it out.  Giving it away for an all be it high quality LW is not what this team needed.

[oldnews]

16 minutes ago, CaptainLinden16 said:

The right hand side of the defensive ledger looks throw up bad.  There are and were available players who could have improved the team instead the GM chose a LW.  Regardless of how good he is this team need a RHD>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>LW.

this is fishbowl thinking though.

as if they chose a LW instead of a defenseman.  they will certainly be adding a defenseman

your 'throwup bad' comments are dramatic, but add a good RHD to Tanev and Stecher and you're grossly overstating the problem.

 

The Canucks filled a principal need.    They needed a winger for EP as well as a RHD.

Now - ask yourself - what are the powerforward options out there?

Could they have opted for a placeholder instead of Miller?  Yes.  Could they do the same with the right side of the blueline?  Yes.

 

What are their remaining options of RHD?

Adding a Barrie type - does that really make sense?   The team needs some heaviness on the blueline imo, not another puck mover.

But that leaves a whole range of possibilities - so maybe just wait until you see what they do before over-reacting as if they're finished.

[Lionized27]

1 minute ago, CaptainLinden16 said:

Barrie is still out there and so is Ristolanien.  Maybe even Pesce or another RHD could have been obtained for that pick. 

 

Nashville was clearly trying to trade Subban.  If the Canucks offered a 1st round pick over two 2nds, the Predators would have 100% taken that deal.  Why wouldn't they trade him to Vancouver?  Of course he was available to Vancouver.  There is nothing about what NJ offered that made it impossible for Vancouver to match or exceed.

My understanding is it's an Eastern/Western Conference issue as well as the fact that Poile wasn't willing to retain salary on Subban. No dice from Benning.

Again, Barrie is not available and from what I understand the ask is too high for Ristolainen....the only reason I could see one of them not being a Canuck right now but Miller is.

 

There's a reason that pick went for a winger (filling a giant need) but not a defenseman. You'd have to be willfully ignorant not to think Benning tried his damnedest to get a defenseman (or two!) via trade. 

The summer has only just begun. There's a lot of time to get this roster set between now and training camp.

[189lb enforcers?]

Just now, CaptainLinden16 said:

You frame everything in an anit-Benning lens. 

 

My point is that the Canucks draft record since he has been the GM is easily better than TB or any other team for that matter  He is hitting on his picks.  Canucks draft pre-Benning was an absolute disaster and meaningless to compare.  

 

The draft is primarily a luck based endeavor.  A couple of pages back someone posted the parabolic draft performance of 1st overall to 7th round.  There is no skill in drafting 1st overall.  The Canucks drafted 2nd and 3rd overall once and hit on two Hall of Famers.  The lack of top 3 picks is the reason this team is as bad as it is.  The reason why Tampa is as good as they are is because of Stamkos and Hedman.  Point and Kucherov are amazing players in their own right, but Petterson and Horvat are not terrible either.  If the Canucks had Hedman and Stamkos on this roster they would easily be a top 5 team in the league.  The best players are whats most important as a poster responding to me so eloquently put it.  You don't get much better than those two.

Ahh, so you assumed my anti Benning bias would be cooked into those stats concerning Tampa’s successes at drafting beyond the high percentage picks. 

 

Ass u me then. That’s on you. 

 

Tampa, who’ve been very good since Benning took over here, piling up all sorts of points at the top of the standings aren’t getting the EPs like Benning, and that’s basically your point, but without that specific, all-important context?? Brutal. 

 

I was with you for a bit there, but this is where we will part ways on having an honest discussion or assessment of the past several drafts, relative to the team’s draft position and what all that means in odds. 

 

I can muster the capacity to compliment a rival’s excellence in the area of drafting mid-to-late rounders, without needling JB to do it. 

 

[CaptainLinden16]

Just now, oldnews said:

this is fishbowl thinking though.

as if they chose a LW instead of a defenseman.  they will certainly be adding a defenseman

your 'throwup bad' comments are dramatic, but add a good RHD to Tanev and Stecher and you're grossly overstating the problem.

 

The Canucks filled a principal need.    They needed a winger for EP as well as a RHD.

Now - ask yourself - what are the powerforward options out there?

Could they have opted for a placeholder instead of Miller?  Yes.  Could they do the same with the right side of the blueline?  Yes.

 

What are their remaining options of RHD?

Adding a Barrie type - does that really make sense?   The team needs some heaviness on the blueline imo, not another puck mover.

But that leaves a whole range of possibilities - so maybe just wait until you see what they do before over-reacting as if they're finished.

Tanev isn't what she used to be and Stecher is a darling of the fan base but a very limited hockey player.  In fact they are both darlings of the fanbase, but they are not top 4 RHD.  I see your point if the guy at the top of the depth chart is Hedman/Karlsson, but not if its Myers...

 

There is no offense and they are small and soft as a group.  

 

I really like Miller.  Great contract, Great numbers, Only 26, versatile, physical, etc...I just don't see Tampa in a massive hurry to get rid of him.  You get the RHD first and circle back to Miller later.  You have to prioritize.  I think you would agree that RHD is the biggest gap on the roster. 

[189lb enforcers?]

7 minutes ago, higgyfan said:

This is very true...they often pick up quality players in the later rounds all the time.

 

This part isn't directed at you 189, as I have no idea what your thoughts are on the Miller trade.

 

Whatever TB pick; even if it's in the #16-22 range, they will get a very good prospect.  This isn't necessarly true for our Canucks, so it really doesn't have much impact on the value of the Miller trade. 

 

The worst case scenario is if the Canucks do not make the playoffs in the 20-21 season and the Lightning end up with a nice lotto pick.  I would be surprised if our team is not in the playoffs by then.

FTR, love the player we got. 

 

After the initial Guddy trade, I’m used to JB’s rebuild moves and stopped caring.

I’m just happy that during this era there will be somebody with enough balls to lay a hit out there for a change. JB can kill the team, I can’t change that. As long as I’m not watching a bully - victim scenario anymore, I’m happy. 

[oldnews]

27 minutes ago, CaptainLinden16 said:

who do you have left to trade for that D?  throwing a 5th round pick at a KHL All Star isn't going to cut it.  The free agents are going to cost too much.  You cant just wish it to come true.

First, you're free to devalue all the Canucks tradeable assets if you think that helps paint the situaton into a corner  - lumping all of them as if they have no trade value is your prerogative.

 

Regardless of trade value however - you are overdoing the 'free agents are going to cost too much' thing.

There are a lot of viable free agents hitting the market that would make good, veteran hard minutes additions who could placehold for reasonable term and cap.

How many powerforward options can you say that about?

Kevin Hayes just got a 50 million contract.  What do you think the few pwf will go for on the UFA market?

 

So - Benning found an excellent - and rare imo - fit to play with Pettersson.

 

That has nothing to do with foreoging the continued work to the blueline - but wadr, there are more options in terms of defenseman additions - both on the rumoured trade market - and in free agency - than there are powerforward options out there, particularly ones that are as versatile as a center/winger like Miller.

Edited June 23, 2019 by oldnews

[stawns]

7 minutes ago, oldnews said:

this is fishbowl thinking though.

as if they chose a LW instead of a defenseman.  they will certainly be adding a defenseman

your 'throwup bad' comments are dramatic, but add a good RHD to Tanev and Stecher and you're grossly overstating the problem.

 

The Canucks filled a principal need.    They needed a winger for EP as well as a RHD.

Now - ask yourself - what are the powerforward options out there?

Could they have opted for a placeholder instead of Miller?  Yes.  Could they do the same with the right side of the blueline?  Yes.

 

What are their remaining options of RHD?

Adding a Barrie type - does that really make sense?   The team needs some heaviness on the blueline imo, not another puck mover.

But that leaves a whole range of possibilities - so maybe just wait until you see what they do before over-reacting as if they're finished.

I'd say there's better choices for rhd in UFA than there is big, physical lw's.......to get a comparable lw to play with Petey in UFA would cost them $7m+ and at least 5-6 years on term.  Trading for a lw and going hard for a RHD in UFA is a way, way better strategy, imo

[oldnews]

Just now, stawns said:

I'd say there's better choices for rhd in UFA than there is big, physical lw's.......to get a comparable lw to play with Petey in UFA would cost them $7m+ and at least 5-6 years on term.  Trading for a lw and going hard for a RHD in UFA is a way, way better strategy, imo

agree entirely - and moreover, that LW is here to play with EP and Boeser - and that is as valid a priority as any.

Edited June 23, 2019 by oldnews

[Gurn]

6 minutes ago, CaptainLinden16 said:

You get the RHD first and circle back to Miller later.  You have to prioritize. 

If Miller is still there, and if you did manage to get a d before circling back.

 

I'm more of a bird in the hand being better than two in the bush guy.

[189lb enforcers?]

Just now, stawns said:

I'd say there's better choices for rhd in UFA than there is big, physical lw's.......to get a comparable lw to play with Petey in UFA would cost them $7m+ and at least 5-6 years on term.  Trading for a lw and going hard for a RHD in UFA is a way, way better strategy, imo

Pick your poison, alright.

Insulating EP will always be my first choice-priority. 

[CaptainLinden16]

Just now, 189lb enforcers? said:

Ahh, so you assumed my anti Benning bias would be cooked into those stats concerning Tampa’s successes at drafting beyond the high percentage picks. 

 

Ass u me then. That’s on you. 

 

Tampa, who’ve been very good since Benning took over here, piling up all sorts of points at the top of the standings aren’t getting the EPs like Benning, and that’s basically your point, but without that specific, all-important context?? Brutal. 

 

I was with you for a bit there, but this is where we will part ways on having an honest discussion or assessment of the past several drafts, relative to the team’s draft position and what all that means in odds. 

 

I can muster the capacity to compliment a rival’s excellence in the area of drafting mid-to-late rounders, without needling JB to do it. 

 

Alright thats not me.  Didn't mean to be harsh.  I am of the opinion that the draft is largely a crap shoot.  Teams get credit for being good or bad a drafting primarily because optically thinking is reset by a few hits.  The hits are primarily due to being able to draft really high.  Benning will inevitably revert to the mean as well.

 

Since the Stamkos draft the only meaningful player that TB has drafted past the 3rd round is Palat.  This is what I mean by changing a perspective of how well at team does because they draft high often (thats over 30 picks).  Valiesvski, Kucherov and Point drafted 25-90 are an impressive trio to get with lower probability picks; but thats 3 hits on 20+ attempts.  You have to admit there is a fair amount of good fortune in that.  

[189lb enforcers?]

Just now, CaptainLinden16 said:

Alright thats not me.  Didn't mean to be harsh.  I am of the opinion that the draft is largely a crap shoot.  Teams get credit for being good or bad a drafting primarily because optically thinking is reset by a few hits.  The hits are primarily due to being able to draft really high.  Benning will inevitably revert to the mean as well.

 

Since the Stamkos draft the only meaningful player that TB has drafted past the 3rd round is Palat.  This is what I mean by changing a perspective of how well at team does because they draft high often (thats over 30 picks).  Valiesvski, Kucherov and Point drafted 25-90 are an impressive trio to get with lower probability picks; but thats 3 hits on 20+ attempts.  You have to admit there is a fair amount of good fortune in that.  

I admit that.

The stats are what they are and Tampa is 4th best in that category since 2000.

We can speculate that they will fare just fine with the addition of those picks. 

 

I’m with you on the topic of Dmen. 

We desperately need a few. 

 

[CaptainLinden16]

Just now, oldnews said:

First, you're free to devalue all the Canucks tradeable assets if you think that helps paint the situaton into a corner  - lumping all of them as if they have no trade value is your prerogative.

 

Regardless of trade value however - you are overdoing the 'free agents are going to cost too much' thing.

There are a lot of viable free agents hitting the market that would make good, veteran hard minutes additions who could placehold for reasonable term and cap.

How many powerforward options can you say that about?

Kevin Hayes just got a 50 million contract.  What do you think the few pwf will go for on the UFA market?

 

So - Benning found an excellent - and rare imo - fit to play with Pettersson.

 

That has nothing to do with foreoging the continued work to the blueline - but wadr, there are more options in terms of defenseman additions - both on the rumoured trade market - and in free agency - than there are powerforward options out there, particularly ones that are as versatile as a center/winger like Miller.

I have been waiting for this top pair RHD for long time.  At this point I am out of breathe. You seem to paint a picture that it won't be too difficult to obtain one with the remaining mix of tradeable assets.  If you are right then great.  I would've have simply prioritized the RHD over the LW power forward.  Lievo is a poor man's LW Power Forward and so is Virtanen.  

[stawns]

4 minutes ago, gurn said:

If Miller is still there, and if you did manage to get a d before circling back.

 

I'm more of a bird in the hand being better than two in the bush guy.

For me, getting Petey and Bo some depth was the priority, which is why I was pushing for Ferland.  Miller is a far better choice