A Fair Criticism of Jim Benning

[18W-40C-6W]

11 hours ago, Tomatoes11 said:

Wait. Now you agree that he pisses away value like we piss away beer? Why were you arguing it in the other threads where he got too much credit?

 

There’s nothing more egregious than pissing away value as a manager and you are somehow saying he can piss away value and still be a good GM? Sorry, but those two things are mutually exclusive. If he can’t grasp value, he is a bad GM period.

I didn’t say he’s pissed away value. I said at best it’s kind of even and he needs to do better. Try reading the post. Just because I support him doesn’t mean I can’t be critical of where he needs to improve. That’s the problem with haters, it binary to you. One or the other. You can’t admit on the whole he’s helped this club, which I believe. You just focus on one aspect and complain and call him garbage without looking at the totality of his impact. I look at it overall and say, we’re better off with him, but we need to improve in certain areas.

Edited June 30, 2019 by 18W-40C-6W

[18W-40C-6W]

9 hours ago, Wanless said:

I wouldnt go as far as saying his trading has been bad. He hasn't had much to trade away.

The pieces he had to move were "Ballard Raymond and a second". First rounders were to draft a new core. Second rounders he gamble with, but being second rounders they're not gonna bring in much beyond over paid vets and underperforming RFAs.

 

Of course his trades aren't going to do much. He basically broke even.

 

I'll mention a few trades that we're good

 

Baertschi for a second

 

Granlund for shinkaruk

 

Dorsett for a third

 

Pearson for Gudbranson (so far so good)

 

JT Miller for conditional first a third and an AHL goalie. (I like this trade, it's exciting I also don't think the value is too much)

 

Bonino, sbisa and a first for Kesler. Yeah a lot of fans think this was a weak return but... even though Bonino wasn't huge for the Canucks he did contribute positively for the Penguins cup win and is still a reliable third line center. And kesler had three good seasons and is now irrelevant. Then there's the first that turned into McCann, this story line is a blemish until Pearson. But imagine how lopsided the deal would have been had Benning picked Pastrnak. Benning would have been god by now.

 

The biggest issue with Benning and his trades is he hasn't had the currency to buy quality. 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes all fair points 

[18W-40C-6W]

2 hours ago, HKSR said:

If you had to pick one or the other, I'd  rather a GM that drafts well than trades well.  Trades only happen when you have something to trade.  You have something to trade when you draft well.

Good point, especially in a cap world where those picks matter even more. This is where the complaint of this trading hits though. If you’re throwing in picks as JB has, you need to be winning trades not just breaking even or slightly worse. He is trading away assets that his group is very good at maximizing value for in the draft for assets he’s not good at evaluating. This is a sub par decision given his team’s own strengths and weaknesses 

[18W-40C-6W]

1 hour ago, N7Nucks said:

Other than Eriksson how are his free agent signings below average? Gagner was a bottom 6 guy. Schaller, a bottom 6 guy, and really those are the only notable bad signings and it wasn't like 2 of those 3 crippled the team going forward. Even the Eriksson signing won't cripple this team going forward. Vrbata was great in 1 of his 2 seasons. Miller was great in all 3 of his seasons. Bartkowski is whatever, one year deal. MDZ got us Schenn and a 6th. All things considered was a whatever signing. Beagle and Roussel were great signings imo. Roussel fills a role nobody else really does. And Beagle is Sutter lite.

 

If anything his signings are average, since he's only had three real notable ones. Vrbata was a short term deal and one of those two years was great. Miller played great for us and provided leadership. Eriksson sucked. Beagle and Roussel are great pick ups. Everyone else is forgettable and/or are nothing signings. I think his "bad" free agent signings are overstated. If the worst case scenario from his free agent signings is bottom 6 reclamation projects not panning out and one bad big-ish contract I'd say he's doing pretty good.

 

His signings are so hard to judge cause they were mostly all bottom six/3rd pair d-men signings. His big moves he is 2 for 3 imo. Hard to give him a negative rating in free agents when none of the big names have ever really considered us as a real destination cause of our rebuilding status. Short term deals on bottom 6 players not panning out is not enough for me to ding him in the free agent department. The next couple off seasons though, this will be a real test for his ability to bring in free agents. 

Good points, you forgot (as I did) Vanek which was a very good signing and certainly helped Boeser out a lot. 

[189lb enforcers?]

1 hour ago, GoodCanadianKideh said:

Kessel was good for the Pens, but he was not a good fit for the Leafs during their rebuild.

During? 

Both his and Dion’s departure fueled that rebuild. 

The return for those players helped the Leafs rebuild.

 

Those were necessary trades, sacrificial trades, for the future and the epitome of the signal of an aggressive rebuild strategy, much like the NYR and Ottawa are doing now. 

[18W-40C-6W]

5 minutes ago, 189lb enforcers? said:

During? 

Both his and Dion’s departure fueled that rebuild. 

The return for those players helped the Leafs rebuild.

 

Those were necessary trades, sacrificial trades, for the future and the epitome of the signal of an aggressive rebuild strategy, much like the NYR and Ottawa are doing now. 

Sure but when have the canucks had luck in the lottery? We finished what, 2nd to the bottom once, 3rd to bottom twice. We fell back every draft. Arguably only our drafting saved us as we picked a superstar in Petey who should have been first overall and Hughes fell to us a different year.

 

those teams you mentioned benefited from winning the lottery and having star (no brainer) picks sitting there for them. 

 

Many here complain we didn’t tank, we actually did and still got screwed by the lottery 

Edited June 30, 2019 by 18W-40C-6W

[189lb enforcers?]

1 hour ago, Jimmy McGill said:

honestly I think you're being very unreasonable and unrealistic. Re-casting Nonis that way is a bit much. 

Nonuts was the NTC vending machine. Gillis has nothing on that guy. 

 

How many core UFAs walked after their UFA contracts here after that?

 

This franchise lost so many assets during that era, partly because of the team’s inability to trade those NTCs. 

 

Anyone have a depressing list of those names? 

Jovo, etc. 

[Borvat]

29 minutes ago, 18W-40C-6W said:

I didn’t say he’s pissed away value. I said at best it’s kind of even and he needs to do better. Try reading the post. Just because I support him doesn’t mean I can’t be critical of where he needs to improve. That’s the problem with haters, it binary to you. One or the other. You can’t admit on the whole he’s helped this club, which I believe. You just focus on one aspect and complain and call him garbage without looking at the totality of his impact. I look at it overall and say, we’re better off with him, but we need to improve in certain areas.

I agree.  He does some things very well and needs help in others.  I have zero doubt ownership and the Sedin situation somewhat dictated what he was able to do of his own accord in the first few years - rebuild on the fly.  I would go as far as to say the Sedin's had some input into Loui Eriksson - yes it's managements decision - but most at the time thought he would be the elite winger they never had and from reports it included the Sedin's.

 

He has had to carry the whole load mostly since Linden has been gone - including public relations, media, dealing with Aquilini etc.  He looks like he's aged 10 years in the last 5.  Mr. Aquilini get him some help and let them do their job.

Edited June 30, 2019 by Borvat

[Where'd Luongo?]

Hey everyone, I think the things that everyone already knows but I won't write an essay and waste your time. 

[JM_]

4 minutes ago, 189lb enforcers? said:

Nonuts was the NTC vending machine. Gillis has nothing on that guy. 

 

How many core UFAs walked after their UFA contracts here after that?

 

This franchise lost so many assets during that era, partly because of the team’s inability to trade those NTCs. 

 

Anyone have a depressing list of those names? 

Jovo, etc. 

went and did similar things in TO too. 

 

I don't want to slag Linden but I don't see how you separate Jim's decisions from who was driving the bus. I loved Linden as a player but much like Gretzky he maybe should not have taken the office gig. 

 

Edited June 30, 2019 by Jimmy McGill

[GoodCanadianKideh]

17 minutes ago, 189lb enforcers? said:

During? 

Both his and Dion’s departure fueled that rebuild. 

The return for those players helped the Leafs rebuild.

 

Those were necessary trades, sacrificial trades, for the future and the epitome of the signal of an aggressive rebuild strategy, much like the NYR and Ottawa are doing now. 

How much further ahead would the Leafs have been if they’d held onto the 2 first-round picks and the 2nd rounder instead of trading them for a first line winger that was in his prime?  Their rebuild would have happened way faster than the way it dragged out for almost a decade.  Burke didn’t recognize where the team was at and traded away the future.  

 

My point is that Burke didn’t realize what state the team was at and sacrificed the future for a return that payed no dividends.  He traded away a first line centre and a top pairing D-man for a winger.  

Edited June 30, 2019 by GoodCanadianKideh

[189lb enforcers?]

32 minutes ago, 18W-40C-6W said:

Sure but when have the canucks had luck in the lottery? We finished what, 2nd to the bottom once, 3rd to bottom twice. We fell back every draft. Arguably only our drafting saved us as we picked a superstar in Petey who should have been first overall and Hughes fell to us a different year.

 

those teams you mentioned benefited from winning the lottery and having star (no brainer) picks sitting there for them. 

 

Many here complain we didn’t tank, we actually did and still got screwed by the lottery 

Mathew &^@#ing Tkachuk! 

You make your own luck sometimes. 

JB ship the bed there. That wasn’t Luck. 

 

The curse of Canucks Luck is real. It has been since our first draft. I get it, but JB hasn’t been managing as well as he could. His drafting department is carrying him, IMO. 

 

Accidentally tanking isn’t the same strategy as trading away your stars for draft picks while purposefully deep diving to the bottom. Toronto rebuilt through “pain”. The Canucks started that, “it wouldn’t be fair” to do that. No amount of virtue signalling about the honour of tanking will make the results change. Meh feelz are not part of the product. 

 

AM is a super star hero player and a gift to the Leafs via the Lottery, no question. 

Had they drafted Laine or another stud in that que, would they be that much worse off? I don’t think so. Their gamble paid off, but at worst, they’d have a Tkachuk instead. I don’t get the argument there. 

 

No to be a jerk, but you’re making excuses based on hypotheticals. 

 

At some point, Accidental tanks won’t be tolerated by FA. The silver linings of picking EP or within the top 5-7 while loading up on quality FAs won’t be acceptable, nor will the lack of dealing with the predictable IR mainstays, the excuse for the past few seasons as to why this team keeps picking high. 

 

My preference has always been that the team brought in a manager, not a PR token like Linden to act as a human bug deflector for critisism of the team’s strategic plan, to manage the team and let JB run the Amateur scouting side of it all. The results of his failures is what we are all applauding and excited to watch. The team continues to improve their character and shed the disrespect it accumulated with the circus act it had become before his time. They are marginally tougher to play against, but still the top 6 and top 4 isn’t what a rebuilding team might have salvaged some dignity and respect with. 

 

I was happy to have the tandem of Linden and Benning “learning on the job”. It was a Tanktards dream, minus the acquisition of and stock piling of draft picks during the whole misadventure, which still stings.

 

Today, I’m glad the rebuild is over, as the Miller signing signalled. Now JB has nothing to save his ass from an accidental Tank. Now he will be judged on the results, not the silver linings. I suspect he will be gone after two seasons, but who knows and who doesn’t like pleasant surprises? 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 30, 2019 by 189lb enforcers?

[IBatch]

31 minutes ago, 18W-40C-6W said:

I didn’t say he’s pissed away value. I said at best it’s kind of even and he needs to do better. Try reading the post. Just because I support him doesn’t mean I can’t be critical of where he needs to improve. That’s the problem with haters, it binary to you. One or the other. You can’t admit on the whole he’s helped this club, which I believe. You just focus on one aspect and complain and call him garbage without looking at the totality of his impact. I look at it overall and say, we’re better off with him, but we need to improve in certain areas.

Good post.  I bet most of us that are pro Benning feel the same way.  He’s done some things that haven’t made me happy, and others that have me more excited to watch the Canucks since Luongo started to complain about his contract and before Kesler asked for a trade.  

 

The Sedin era was both great and daunting, especially after the band broke up.  

 

Maybe we could have had a better GM, so could practically every other team during that span.  Sakic was criticized for years, especially on how long he held onto Duchene, at the time it was relentless...then all of a sudden he’s a genius and respected and considered one of the better GMs out there...why?  He drafted well.  And got lucky.  And was extremely patient. 

 

A lot of Bennings questionable moves take a back seat when you consider the value EP, Hughes, Boeser, Horvat, Demko and now J.T. Miller and Podz have on the team.  And we haven’t exactly had the pick of the litter when it comes to any of those guys.

 

I agree that if he doesn’t trade smart, at least equal value or better, make some ridiculous signings or all of a sudden go all in and throw the future away for a run for god knows why, that he’s at least earned the top spot to guide the team now that it’s close to relevant again.  

 

Until he makes some bad moves that really matter or doesn’t act when he should, I want him to keep running the show.   

 

Miller is the first decisive action he’s made since signing LE.   It’s at least a fair trade.  For us it’s like accelerating a top prospects development seven years.   Can’t get that from the draft and he filled a gaping hole.  Now EP will have a vet to rely on etc.   Instead of “gulp” Goldobin who he made look relevant because he’s that good.  

 

Myers will replace Edler if we sign him, nothing wrong with that we certainly won’t be getting that area fixed from the draft for a very long time.    Maybe next core even through the draft.    

 

Looking forward to this year. Should be some good hockey ...

[RowdyCanuck]

2 hours ago, Tomatoes11 said:

Yes, anyone that would personally drive people to airport rather than piss away value is a great GM.

 

Benning is the opposite. 

If you read the OP. There's reasons why he traded seconds for Vey and Sven....there was a big age gap on the team....

I can make a case for all his moves and those seconds wouldn't be on the team right away and he needed to find players that fit the age gap...unless you want a team like the oilers?

he has down falls like trades and signing ufas but like I said drafting has saved his job.....I say give him this season cause for once the roster is all his players not Gillis's. 

[189lb enforcers?]

17 minutes ago, GoodCanadianKideh said:

How much further ahead would the Leafs have been if they’d held onto the 2 first-round picks and the 2nd rounder instead of trading them for a first line winger that was in his prime?  

Ask the Benning “defenders” in the Miller trade thread. 

 

I get your points, just disagree with the spin of some of the context. 

 

[RowdyCanuck]

59 minutes ago, Alflives said:

@Phat Fingers was attacked by a porcupine?

 

 

Or maybe he sucked at playing sonic ha

[189lb enforcers?]

5 minutes ago, RowdyCanuck said:

If you read the OP. There's reasons why he traded seconds for Vey and Sven....there was a big age gap on the team....

I can make a case for all his moves and those seconds wouldn't be on the team right away and he needed to find players that fit the age gap...unless you want a team like the oilers?

he has down falls like trades and signing ufas but like I said drafting has saved his job.....I say give him this season cause for once the roster is all his players not Gillis's. 

Did the age gap-replaceathon work though; were the results worth it?

Those who say no will point to the UFA route of all sorts to fill holes with players of a certain age, who wouldn’t have cost any rebuild fuel. 

[RowdyCanuck]

1 minute ago, 189lb enforcers? said:

Did the age gap-replaceathon work though; were the results worth it?

Those who say no will point to the UFA route of all sorts to fill holes with players of a certain age, who wouldn’t have cost any rebuild fuel. 

yes I would say it worked out cause Ufas weren't lining up to come to Van at the time and that's why Jim had to over pay players....Those place holders meant we didn't rush the kids like we did with Jake and McCann...

its also worth mention this is only the second season without the Sedins and their cap hit coming up and Van had to change leadership from gentleman to guys that will win at all cost....those guys don't come cheap or on the market very often...

 

[18W-40C-6W]

46 minutes ago, Where'd Luongo? said:

Hey everyone, I think the things that everyone already knows but I won't write an essay and waste your time. 

Cool, then why are you wasting your time here? Irony 

[IBatch]

Sometimes I do wonder given the frequency of the JB dislikers (haters is a strong word, puts them all the way to the far side of the spectrum which is undeserving for some like 189lbs who’s right a lot of the time on specific topics but also acknowledges that he’s made some good moves too, doesn’t make him a hater) posts if some perspective would help.

 

Each time we’ve made it to the the final, it was two cores away.   Also since expansion only one team has won cups with completely different teams and even them they had a rookie goalie that was part of two cores - Roy. Detroit managed cups with part of the same core...

 

Im mentioning this as a fan of hockey and not just the Canucks.   When a top team dissolves, it has never resulted in another top team back to back since expansion.   The Oilers had so much loot from breaking up the band  piece by piece ... a treasure trove of first rounders and picks and high end prospects..and they had a top five goalie in the league at the time in Ranford, and ended up with Weight, Arnott, Marchment etc...not enough to do much of anything.   Compared to what they had and what we got and what Bennings managed im pretty stoked.  

 

Just look at the three most successful franchises since the mid 90’s

 

NJ ... what have they done, other then luck with Hall and the lottery 

 

DET ... same with them...what have they done?

 

COL ...finally seem to have turned things around 

 

Only SJ won more often then Vancouver since the Sedins were drafted and 2014.

We were a top team for a very long time to the point where we had the worst pool in the league when Benning took over.  Now we have the 3rd best group of 21 and unders and are just getting started. I imagined a lot more pain then this, somehow despite the re-tool Benning comes out smelling like roses in this department.  So I think we should cut him some slack and see what else he can manage...

 

Not that he shouldn’t have a hook ready to eject him..because all of that can be thrown under a bus in a couple months or bad moves.  But let’s give the guy a chance, he’s earned it.