RowdyCanuck Posted April 8, 2020 Share Posted April 8, 2020 1 minute ago, thedestroyerofworlds said: Voodoo economics, trickle down economics, Reaganomics, supply side economics. Investopedia link Updated Aug 26, 2019 What Is Voodoo Economics? Voodoo economics is a derogatory phrase used by George H. W. Bush in reference to President Ronald Reagan's economic policies, which came to be known as "Reaganomics." Trickle down economics does work in some cases , look at tourism , those people make their money some how and spend it in different areas. Look at for example Banff all the way to canal flats. A lot of Calgary oil money went into resorts and golf courses and so on. Same goes for say Ponoka oil companies have donated heavily for new arenas and so on and that's not just Alberta but also s.k and Manitoba. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thedestroyerofworlds Posted April 8, 2020 Share Posted April 8, 2020 27 minutes ago, RowdyCanuck said: Trickle down economics does work in some cases , look at tourism , those people make their money some how and spend it in different areas. Look at for example Banff all the way to canal flats. A lot of Calgary oil money went into resorts and golf courses and so on. Same goes for say Ponoka oil companies have donated heavily for new arenas and so on and that's not just Alberta but also s.k and Manitoba. Trickle down economics refers to the notion that companies/the wealthy are overtaxed and when their taxes are cut, it unlocks the economy resulting in all kinds of money flowing down to the masses. This somehow will result in all kinds of revenue for the state, thus paying for the tax cuts. In reality, it doesn't do what is promised, but puts the screws to the revenue line in the budget. The results more often than not results in deficits that are then used for cuts to services that the masses use. See Harper's GST cut, Brownback's Kansas tax cuts, and TRUMP'S tax cuts for examples. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RowdyCanuck Posted April 8, 2020 Share Posted April 8, 2020 12 minutes ago, thedestroyerofworlds said: Trickle down economics refers to the notion that companies/the wealthy are overtaxed and when their taxes are cut, it unlocks the economy resulting in all kinds of money flowing down to the masses. This somehow will result in all kinds of revenue for the state, thus paying for the tax cuts. In reality, it doesn't do what is promised, but puts the screws to the revenue line in the budget. The results more often than not results in deficits that are then used for cuts to services that the masses use. See Harper's GST cut, Brownback's Kansas tax cuts, and TRUMP'S tax cuts for examples. True but those tax breaks are one of the biggest reasons companies stay in North America , instead of going to say China or another country where labour laws arnt near ours. Also in some areas the trickle does happen but it doesn't happen enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted April 8, 2020 Share Posted April 8, 2020 1 hour ago, RowdyCanuck said: Didn't Alberta give out grants to tech companies? Didnt one already leave Calgary? The NDP run Alberta did yes. It was a great idea and was clearly working at attracting diversity and tech companies. The more recently elected Alberta governance has decided to reverse a lot of that (hence tech companies leaving) while putting vast amounts of funding towards only oil and gas (while drastically slashing public services no less). It's frankly, asinine. Albertans should be grabbing torches and pitchforks (and not directed at the federal government as they currently are) but... 1 hour ago, RowdyCanuck said: Im all for advancement but what do we do with the people that lose their jobs?..... like you said we already see it coming but how do we draw that line in the sand? That's the next great question for humanity. It's likely going to make this pandemic look like a quaint speed bump. Increasing automation is coming. AI is coming. There's going to be millions of suddenly obsolete, unemployed people. We needed to be seriously exploring how we transition to this new reality ten years ago and most people are barely even thinking about it now. Our entire economics system will need to be revamped, our commitment to and view of 'work', work hours, value as a person as it relates to work etc we'll all be completely reshaped. Again, that's all happening whether we grow tech companies now or not. I'd rather we at least try to get on that train rather than watching that, like our current economic/work systems, pass is by. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RowdyCanuck Posted April 8, 2020 Share Posted April 8, 2020 3 minutes ago, aGENT said: The NDP run Alberta did yes. It was a great idea and was clearly working at attracting diversity and tech companies. The more recently elected Alberta governance has decided to reverse a lot of that (hence tech companies leaving) while putting vast amounts of funding towards only oil and gas (while drastically slashing public services no less). It's frankly, asinine. Albertans should be grabbing torches and pitchforks (and not directed at the federal government as they currently are) but... That's the next great question for humanity. It's likely going to make this pandemic look like a quaint speed bump. Increasing automation is coming. AI is coming. There's going to be millions of suddenly obsolete, unemployed people. We needed to be seriously exploring how we transition to this new reality ten years ago and most people are barely even thinking about it now. Our entire economics system will need to be revamped, our commitment to and view of 'work', work hours, value as a person as it relates to work etc we'll all be completely reshaped. Again, that's all happening whether we grow tech companies now or not. I'd rather we at least try to get on that train rather than watching that, like our current economic/work systems, pass is by. I agree we should be investing in other industries but right now we need the oil money to help build up other industries, like farming and ranching cause the lucky ones have wells and invest the money they get back into the farm or ranch or some start side companies.(hay hauling or horse training etc) like you said the oil industry propped Canada up and if we want to strengthen other industries then we need our biggest earner stronger to explore those options and to offer more grants and etc. I get the reasoning cause Alberta already built that industry up so why bail when your already down the rabbit hole? Short term gain. ( I mean if you call 30 years short term, I do) i just think of the terminator...... tech is great but at times I think it has come to far in some areas. And thx to us raising the price of everything , it has made it even harder for some industries to truly boom......even with grants and tax breaks. Im all for reshaping or reconstructing economics/ work system......personally I could live if they dropped minimum wage cause that means the price of everything drops but give companies tax breaks if they pay a % above minimum wage. Also everyone's money will go further in theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted April 8, 2020 Share Posted April 8, 2020 (edited) 15 minutes ago, RowdyCanuck said: I agree we should be investing in other industries but right now we need the oil money to help build up other industries, like farming and ranching cause the lucky ones have wells and invest the money they get back into the farm or ranch or some start side companies.(hay hauling or horse training etc) like you said the oil industry propped Canada up and if we want to strengthen other industries then we need our biggest earner stronger to explore those options and to offer more grants and etc. I get the reasoning cause Alberta already built that industry up so why bail when your already down the rabbit hole? Short term gain. ( I mean if you call 30 years short term, I do) i just think of the terminator...... tech is great but at times I think it has come to far in some areas. And thx to us raising the price of everything , it has made it even harder for some industries to truly boom......even with grants and tax breaks. Im all for reshaping or reconstructing economics/ work system......personally I could live if they dropped minimum wage cause that means the price of everything drops but give companies tax breaks if they pay a % above minimum wage. Also everyone's money will go further in theory. I have no problem with some level of supporting current/legacy industries, oil included (I was/am pro TMX pipeline for example). But oil has already, and continues to be, well supported by both the federal and Alberta governments. Cutting funding/support to a variety of 'diversity industries' to funnel even more money to oil and gas, particularly when it's worth next to nothing on the market currently and for the foreseeable future, is INCREDIBLY short sighted. With those billions of tax dollars going to prop up oil and gas, how exactly does that actually 'create' the money you speak of? But it panders to the exact demographic that got them elected, so... As always, it's the voters who are truly to blame. Edited April 8, 2020 by aGENT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RowdyCanuck Posted April 8, 2020 Share Posted April 8, 2020 1 minute ago, aGENT said: I have no problem with some level of supporting current/legacy industries, oil included (I was/am pro TMX pipeline for example). But oil has already, and continues to be, well supported by both the federal and Alberta governments. Cutting funding/support to a variety of 'diversity industries' to funnel even more money to oil and gas, particularly when it's worth next to nothing on the market currently and for the foreseeable future, is INCREDIBLY short sighted. But it panders to the exact demographic that got them elected, so... As always, it's the voters who are truly to blame. What Alberta is hoping it can make up his loses once oil goes back up cause right now it's the only industry that can pull us out the fastest and hopefully reinvest over time to build up other industries in the process and when a wack load of people already work in the oil and gas industry and right now there's no other industry that creates that many jobs. I do hope this time around Alberta and Canada learned their lesson. The people just want jobs. They don't care if their oil or tech aslong as they pay good. But Alberta doesn't have to be the front runner, sure it would be smart but look at how many people have moved to Alberta for work..... so why doesn't b.c or other provinces grab the bull by the horns? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhippy Posted April 9, 2020 Share Posted April 9, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, RowdyCanuck said: Trickle down economics does work in some cases , look at tourism , those people make their money some how and spend it in different areas. That's not trickle down economics...at all. It's not even close. That's spin off related business, or spin off economic theory Edited April 9, 2020 by Warhippy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhippy Posted April 9, 2020 Share Posted April 9, 2020 1 hour ago, RowdyCanuck said: What Alberta is hoping it can make up his loses once oil goes back up cause right now it's the only industry that can pull us out the fastest and hopefully reinvest over time to build up other industries in the process and when a wack load of people already work in the oil and gas industry and right now there's no other industry that creates that many jobs. Green jobs are almost employing as such as the energy sector. Why not, again; pump tens of billions in to that? The largest and longest job creators in the energy sector is when infrastructure is being built. Pipelines are a perfect example. Thousands build it, then dozens staff it. Creating that green infrastructure would literally employ tens of if not hundreds of thousands while creating economic spin offs (not trickle down) As for why BC or any other province grabbing the bull by the horns. Alberta has a population needing to work, and a population about to have tens of billions of dollars dumped on them. They have some of the lowest costs of office space and available office space in the nation, central to everything and 2 major airports mere hours from each other. Alberta is the perfect place for that level of reinvestment and diversification 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RowdyCanuck Posted April 9, 2020 Share Posted April 9, 2020 44 minutes ago, Warhippy said: That's not trickle down economics...at all. It's not even close. That's spin off related business, or spin off economic theory Trickle-down economics assumes investors, savers, and company owners are the real drivers of growth. It promises they’ll use any extra cash from tax cuts to expand businesses. Investors will buy more companies or stocks. Banks will increase lending. Owners will invest in their operations and hire workers. All of this expansion will trickle down to workers. They will spend their wages to drive demand and economic growth. im just looking at the end of the road......if rigs didn't make a boat load then they couldn't afford to pay riggers what they make....... 42 minutes ago, Warhippy said: Green jobs are almost employing as such as the energy sector. Why not, again; pump tens of billions in to that? The largest and longest job creators in the energy sector is when infrastructure is being built. Pipelines are a perfect example. Thousands build it, then dozens staff it. Creating that green infrastructure would literally employ tens of if not hundreds of thousands while creating economic spin offs (not trickle down) As for why BC or any other province grabbing the bull by the horns. Alberta has a population needing to work, and a population about to have tens of billions of dollars dumped on them. They have some of the lowest costs of office space and available office space in the nation, central to everything and 2 major airports mere hours from each other. Alberta is the perfect place for that level of reinvestment and diversification Okay where do you put it? Red deer? Edmonton ? Fort Mac? if another province did it then the people would move for the jobs.....a lot of people living in Alberta already proved that their willing to travel for work.....it would also force albertans hands ... it would actually give people a choice of two strong industries instead of everyone running to oil cause the money..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted April 9, 2020 Share Posted April 9, 2020 (edited) I see hippy largely covered this already but... 2 hours ago, RowdyCanuck said: What Alberta is hoping it can make up his loses once oil goes back up cause right now it's the only industry that can pull us out the fastest and hopefully reinvest over time to build up other industries in the process and when a wack load of people already work in the oil and gas industry and right now there's no other industry that creates that many jobs. Is oil going back up in any meaningful way? I mean we're unlikely to see $80+ / barrel prices again. At least for the foreseeable future. Technology (automation) makes lower $/barrel more able to be profitable but then that also equals less of those jobs we both agree are the main point of all this. Building infrastructure makes jobs. Oil and gas, once that infrastructure is built, doesn't. And it makes ever less of them, with ever more automation to remain competitive. Quote I do hope this time around Alberta and Canada learned their lesson. The people just want jobs. They don't care if their oil or tech aslong as they pay good. No argument here. But Alberta is putting all their eggs in one, legacy industry, basket. As was the mandate from the voters. Quote But Alberta doesn't have to be the front runner, sure it would be smart but look at how many people have moved to Alberta for work..... so why doesn't b.c or other provinces grab the bull by the horns? As hippy pointed out, Alberta has the existing office space, work force, younger population base, airports, lower cost of living/housing etc, etc. It's not that other provinces aren't trying, BC has loads of incentives to attract just this sort of investment/tech. They simply can't match Alberta's, already existing, infrastructure, in place work force etc. Edited April 9, 2020 by aGENT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RowdyCanuck Posted April 9, 2020 Share Posted April 9, 2020 1 hour ago, aGENT said: I see hippy largely covered this already but... Is oil going back up in any meaningful way? I mean we're unlikely to see $80+ / barrel prices again. At least for the foreseeable future. Technology (automation) makes lower $/barrel more able to be profitable but then that also equals less of those jobs we both agree are the main point of all this. Building infrastructure makes jobs. Oil and gas, once that infrastructure is built, doesn't. And it makes ever less of them, with ever more automation to remain competitive. No argument here. But Alberta is putting all their eggs in one, legacy industry, basket. As was the mandate from the voters. As hippy pointed out, Alberta has the existing office space, work force, younger population base, airports, lower cost of living/housing etc, etc. It's not that other provinces aren't trying, BC has loads of incentives to attract just this sort of investment/tech. They simply can't match Alberta's, already existing, infrastructure, in place work force etc. True but oil and gas is tied to everything in Alberta and other provinces, we are an oil country for good or bad so we have to make what we can, while we can. Also those jobs , a lot of them are trades and could be used in other fields. So those oil jobs that don't last atleast leave people with trades and skills that could be used for other jobs. It took texas awhile to bring in those tech companies to Houston. Alberta is just behind Texas but if they follow what Texas did then they could survive. Also I get Alberta has the space and people but if the province doesn't want to take that road then another province should step up and grab that brass ring, It would help all of Canada.... people will move for work or starve. Easy choice in my books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted April 9, 2020 Share Posted April 9, 2020 14 minutes ago, RowdyCanuck said: True but oil and gas is tied to everything in Alberta and other provinces, we are an oil country for good or bad so we have to make what we can, while we can. Has been, yes. I'm not so sure that's the case medium-longer term. And as we've already covered, short term it isn't a money maker/job producer at present either (without massive subsidies anyway. Maybe we already largely 'made what we could'...? 14 minutes ago, RowdyCanuck said: Also those jobs , a lot of them are trades and could be used in other fields. So those oil jobs that don't last atleast leave people with trades and skills that could be used for other jobs. Yes... Precisely the ones we've been talking about that would transfer to those other, diverse, green, tech, 'future' etc industries and building the infrastructure for them... Making Canada stronger. 14 minutes ago, RowdyCanuck said: It took texas awhile to bring in those tech companies to Houston. Alberta is just behind Texas but if they follow what Texas did then they could survive. They were following that... Under the previous NDP government. The current government, put there by voters, with this mandate, has largely undone most of that in a foolish attempt to travel back in time and spend billions of their tax dollars propping up a dying industry while slashing public services and killing economic diversity with a future 14 minutes ago, RowdyCanuck said: Also I get Alberta has the space and people but if the province doesn't want to take that road then another province should step up and grab that brass ring, It would help all of Canada.... people will move for work or starve. Easy choice in my books. And... Like I said, other provinces, BC included ARE attracting some amounts of these industries. But they're also competing with other places in the world and without those many assets Alberta already has (the office spaces, demographics, workers etc, etc), they're simply not as competitive as other places that also already have those things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RowdyCanuck Posted April 9, 2020 Share Posted April 9, 2020 3 minutes ago, aGENT said: Has been, yes. I'm not so sure that's the case medium-longer term. And as we've already covered, short term it isn't a money maker/job producer at present either (without massive subsidies anyway. Maybe we already largely 'made what we could'...? Yes... Precisely the ones we've been talking about that would transfer to those other, diverse, green, tech, 'future' etc industries and building the infrastructure for them... Making Canada stronger. They were following that... Under the previous NDP government. The current government, put there by voters, with this mandate, has largely undone most of that in a foolish attempt to travel back in time and spend billions of their tax dollars propping up a dying industry while slashing public services and killing economic diversity with a future And... Like I said, other provinces, BC included ARE attracting some amounts of these industries. But they're also competing with other places in the world and without those many assets Alberta already has (the office spaces, demographics, workers etc, etc), they're simply not as competitive as other places that also already have those things. Yes I agree. But you need an appetite for it..... A lot Humans don't like change..., also technology scares some people.... then maybe those other provinces should take a gamble and screw Alberta and attract people just like Alberta did...... people will move for work or lose everything....people out east moved to Alberta for work so why not move again for work?... Why not become a power province ? And show Alberta how it's done?.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted April 9, 2020 Share Posted April 9, 2020 1 hour ago, RowdyCanuck said: Yes I agree. But you need an appetite for it..... A lot Humans don't like change..., also technology scares some people.... then maybe those other provinces should take a gamble and screw Alberta and attract people just like Alberta did...... people will move for work or lose everything....people out east moved to Alberta for work so why not move again for work?... Why not become a power province ? And show Alberta how it's done?.... I feel like I'm repeating myself and you're not reading... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RowdyCanuck Posted April 9, 2020 Share Posted April 9, 2020 9 minutes ago, aGENT said: I feel like I'm repeating myself and you're not reading... I get what you mean Alberta would be perfect for other industries and has everything for it but like I said if Alberta doesn't want to take that route then why waste the chance? Alberta is planning on oil and burning bridges so why not have another province step up or step in? Kenny is doing what's he thinks is best , which with oil we are already down that rabbit hole so why not.....also if oil crashes again or if it drags out then other industries can poach top worker or skilled labor. like I said change scares some people and sometimes the devil you know is better then the devil you don't. cause Alberta isn't going to change anytime soon, our lil red wagon is tied to oil and so is all of Canada at the moment. So maybe a more open minded province should step in and show the way. I do get what you mean and I agree but you need the leaders of a province to be open to those ideas and we both know what Kenny wants. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan Strome Posted April 9, 2020 Share Posted April 9, 2020 22 hours ago, Jimmy McGill said: which is why it needs to be a smaller percentage of our overall economic output. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan Strome Posted April 9, 2020 Share Posted April 9, 2020 @aGENT your comment here is complete BS!! And as we've already covered, short term it isn't a money maker/job producer at present either (without massive subsidies anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nuckin_futz Posted April 12, 2020 Author Share Posted April 12, 2020 OPEC+ oil output cut deal agreed Sunday Sun 12 Apr 2020 20:08:20 GMT The main points of the agreement to cut oil production a cut of circa 9.7 million barrels a day of oil 13-nation OPEC and others (Russia, US are two) agreed to share cuts Its unclear how the cuts are to be apportioned, and how the US intends to enforce its promised cuts, but indications are (its is very unclear, but these from sources, awaiting confirmation): Mexico cut 100,000 barrels a day US by 300,000 barrels / day Saudi Arabia's production to be reduced to 8.5m bpd (from the current whopping 12 million bpd) G20 output cut amounts to 3.5 m bpd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.B Cooper Posted April 12, 2020 Share Posted April 12, 2020 On 4/9/2020 at 6:40 AM, Ryan Strome said: The cabbage patch can still feed families....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Please sign in to comment
You will be able to leave a comment after signing in
Sign In Now