Saudi Arabia declares oil price war on fellow OPEC (and non OPEC)members.

[JM_]

42 minutes ago, Boudrias said:

The contribution the energy industry has made to Canada is very underappreciated by the majority of Canadians. My view of the industry is that it could have provided the capital needed to chart a more independent economic future. To me this is a national security issue. I don't think the politicians or the industry have done a very good job in outlining the importance of this industry to how Canada will fund its future. 

PET tried that once. 

[Boudrias]

21 minutes ago, I.Am.Ironman said:

This is what it boils down to and here we are. I think most people can see the writing on the wall with oil. It is unlikely to hit it's former peak and rightfully so imo. This Saudi/Russia things has us in a bit of a pickle then the USA always complicates things for us. But you're right in saying that we need to use this industry (if it recovers) to fund our diversification into not only other energy sectors (ie. clean) but also into things like tech. Historically, it is the biggest money maker that Canada has contributing to GDP, if it recovers we need to start the process to transition away form fossil fuels but that will take time and investment (from the energy sector), but it won't be able to be done without a healthy alberta. We are in a less than ideal situation as the diversification should have started decades ago, but greed and short sightedness prevented it from happening. But we have to start somewhere. He has flaws but I think Trudeau has the right idea of using the profits of the pipeline to fund green tech (probably not his idea but he is the representative). Those are the sort of programs we need to make this transition.....gradually.

 

I think what it boils down to is if in 30 years alberta is still reliant on oil we did it wrong.

I think the provinces and feds have to have a different attitude towards finite resources like oils and minerals. What are their fair value and how can they contribute towards national goals. What I suggest is that much of that revenue should not be going to social need. It should be invested in diversification that will in return provide revenue for social needs. Unfortunately the debt situation in Canad will probably preclude any such planning. 

[Warhippy]

31 minutes ago, Ryan Strome said:

Cough don't read if you don't want to cough.

 

You sit and whine for years about "opinion's" yet always manage to only dredge up opinions to further your argument.

 

I will respond to one level of this childish rant from this author.  Who seems to be making a career out of petulance.

 

1.  According to the International Energy Agency, oil demand is expected to continue to grow until at least 2030 by an additional one million barrels of oil per day every year. Demand will not drop off to zero then but will “level off,” so it’s not a question of whether or not oil will continue to be needed but who will supply that growing demand. Most Canadians would, or at least should, prefer to consume Canadian oil rather than oil that enriches OPEC dictators, Russia and Venezuela.

 

2.  On April 17, Kenney said: “I want to remind our fellow Canadians . . . that when we were in the midst of the global financial crisis 12 years ago, the national government stepped in to ensure a future for the central Canadian auto manufacturing sector. That was the right thing to do. It helped to save that sector and with it hundreds of thousands of jobs.

 

3.  “But during that global financial crisis, one of the reasons Canada got through it stronger than virtually any other developed country was primarily because of the strength of the Alberta oil and gas sector,” he said.

 

4.  “That is one expression of how Alberta has always been there to help the rest of the country. This is a sector that helps to sustain approximately 800,000 jobs directly and indirectly, that generates tens of billions of dollars of revenue — more than any other industry in the country — revenue that goes to support things like world-class health care, the system that we all count on right now.”

 

 

Oil demand is expected to grow.  Here is IEA's report from last year, which is evidently what was cited in Licia's rant.  https://www.iea.org/reports/world-energy-outlook-2019. These estimates have since been revised.  Numerous nations across the globe have announced massive dumps of money in to sustainable energy and plans to purchase alternative energy vehicles for transit.  That estimate will be further revised and lowered.  As for most Canadians wanting to buy Canadian.  We tried that, but one province told everyone east of Sask to freeze in the dark.  Since then the oil in this nation has been sole sourced to the US markets which keeps US politicians, strategic premiums and corporations happy as it helps them dictate 1/3 of their oil needs.  Why is this revisionist history taking place now?  We HAD a chance, but people didn't want to take it because instead of working with the proposed plan to make it more viable they thumbed their noses at it and that's that.  We can't go back now it's way to late.

 

On April 17th Jason Kenney mislead his fellow Canadians.  In 2008, Oil bounced between $90 a barrel and $110 a barrel.  Oil is now trading at a negative.  Claiming oil wealth brought us through as opposed to strong banking policies, consistent regulations to ensure we didn't falter the same way other G20 nations did was what saved us. As much of the over $100 billion was never truly recouped in the way that was promised.

 

As for saving the auto sector, the corps that took that money then still laid people off and closed plants less than 18 months later.  The government thens old the shares garnered at a loss.  Again, this revisionist history is amazing.

 

Alberta has helped the rest of the nation, much like the rest of the nation has helped Alberta.  But Alberta has been faltering for over 6 years since oil started tanking in 2014.  This was not Notley.  This was not Trudeau.  This was predominantly due to market forces.  The US hale explosion, reinvestment in the permian, new gas fields in NE Australia and developments in Russia outside of the Caucasus including multiple pipelines in to Europe and Asia.  Added the OPEC issues which echo what happened in the mid to late 70s through the 80s which lead to the US and Canada announcing plans for strategic oil plans which fell apart.

 

Again much of this is taken numbers out of context, using older reports and effectively revising history to suit an argument that has so very little to do with Canadian policy and so much to do with world market forces that it borders on the childish.

 

[Warhippy]

2 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said:

PET tried that once. 

Shhhhhhhh....don't remind them

[JM_]

1 minute ago, Warhippy said:

Shhhhhhhh....don't remind them

it doesn't matter anyway, the oil dream is never going to be what they thought it would under Harper. $100 oil is never going to happen again in any kind of sustained way.

 

Its very clear that Canada needs to have oil and gas as a smaller part of its portfolio. Yes as part of it its a very valuable contributor.... right up until when its not. Its too volatile for us to make a bigger part of the mix. 

 

The pandemic has shone a bit of light on our nascent manufacturing capabilities, we have all we need to increase our manufacturing sector, and have it be highly diversified. Why would we invest tax dollars now into O&G, vs that? makes no sense at all short or long term. 

[Warhippy]

26 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said:

it doesn't matter anyway, the oil dream is never going to be what they thought it would under Harper. $100 oil is never going to happen again in any kind of sustained way.

 

Its very clear that Canada needs to have oil and gas as a smaller part of its portfolio. Yes as part of it its a very valuable contributor.... right up until when its not. Its too volatile for us to make a bigger part of the mix. 

 

The pandemic has shone a bit of light on our nascent manufacturing capabilities, we have all we need to increase our manufacturing sector, and have it be highly diversified. Why would we invest tax dollars now into O&G, vs that? makes no sense at all short or long term. 

The common sense in this post is evident.  But, like someone in an abusive or dependent relationship it will be ignored and avoided with claims of "we do more" in a rush to explain why now more than ever we just need to be dumping money in to a sunset industry

[JM_]

50 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

The common sense in this post is evident.  But, like someone in an abusive or dependent relationship it will be ignored and avoided with claims of "we do more" in a rush to explain why now more than ever we just need to be dumping money in to a sunset industry

well, how about AB let more of the country take care of itself?

 

There's no reason why Canada couldn't be a manufacturing powerhouse like Germany in 20 years. We have all the skills, and far more natural resources that Germany or Japan, e.g. 

[RowdyCanuck]

On April 23, 2020 at 2:32 PM, Jimmy McGill said:

what utter BS. Please go find me the source to prove that AB oil money funded the rest of Canada's industries. 

https://energynow.ca/2020/04/fueling-canadas-economy-how-canadas-oil-and-gas-industry-compares-to-other-major-sectors-cec/

 

doesnt paint the whole picture but while oil grows so did other industries and that's why if you look back to the late 90's or 2000's and look at the growth of other industries.... Thx to oil we had a Canadian dollar worth more then the states and so on.....I wasn't trying to be a dick but oil has given us a helping hand in other industries but there's no paper trail and I'm not going to go ask the farmer I know that has 3000 acres how you could afford it.....I already know he has a few wells and he has said without oil money his farm would be no where near the size it is today......

I know I use farming as an example a lot but it's benifited them the most imo 

[RowdyCanuck]

1 hour ago, Jimmy McGill said:

it doesn't matter anyway, the oil dream is never going to be what they thought it would under Harper. $100 oil is never going to happen again in any kind of sustained way.

 

Its very clear that Canada needs to have oil and gas as a smaller part of its portfolio. Yes as part of it its a very valuable contributor.... right up until when its not. Its too volatile for us to make a bigger part of the mix. 

 

The pandemic has shone a bit of light on our nascent manufacturing capabilities, we have all we need to increase our manufacturing sector, and have it be highly diversified. Why would we invest tax dollars now into O&G, vs that? makes no sense at all short or long term. 

Your right oil big days are behind us but we can stil make money of oil just not what we use too......

you blame the oil and gas for being the only big boy industry in Canada but since the 90's no other industry has stepped up to take the pressure off oil......it's on all of Canada not Alberta an the fact we had oil stay strong for so long and other provinces didn't invest in future growth cause they figure the oil money would just keep flowing so Alberta is an oil province ......what's Quebec? What's b.c? Atleast Alberta has an industry and thx to that Canada has grown so.......

[JM_]

32 minutes ago, RowdyCanuck said:

you blame the oil and gas for being the only big boy industry

nope, no 'blame' at all 

 

33 minutes ago, RowdyCanuck said:

since the 90's no other industry has stepped up to take the pressure off oil......

what about the other 90% of our GDP?

 

33 minutes ago, RowdyCanuck said:

it's on all of Canada not Alberta an the fact we had oil stay strong for so long and other provinces didn't invest in future growth cause they figure the oil money would just keep flowing so Alberta is an oil province

you're right, the fed's did waste an opportunity to diversify earlier. I don't want them to keep making that mistake moving forward. 

 

35 minutes ago, RowdyCanuck said:

.what's Quebec? What's b.c? Atleast Alberta has an industry and thx to that Canada has grown so.......

the fact that you can type this ^ with what I'm assuming is a straight face is part of the problem. Do you really think there's nothing else going on in Canada except oil production? 

[JM_]

51 minutes ago, RowdyCanuck said:

https://energynow.ca/2020/04/fueling-canadas-economy-how-canadas-oil-and-gas-industry-compares-to-other-major-sectors-cec/

 

doesnt paint the whole picture but while oil grows so did other industries and that's why if you look back to the late 90's or 2000's and look at the growth of other industries.... Thx to oil we had a Canadian dollar worth more then the states and so on.....I wasn't trying to be a dick but oil has given us a helping hand in other industries but there's no paper trail and I'm not going to go ask the farmer I know that has 3000 acres how you could afford it.....I already know he has a few wells and he has said without oil money his farm would be no where near the size it is today......

I know I use farming as an example a lot but it's benifited them the most imo 

that high dollar cost our manufacturing sector, big time. 

 

take a closer look at that report you're quoting. The two industries it compares oil to employs more people than oil does. There's a limited number of oil jobs out there, most of them concentrated in AB. It seems like you don't want others to have jobs outside of oil for some reason.

 

You're not looking at the other 90% of our overall economy, you're just stating bigish oil numbers out of context. 

[RowdyCanuck]

6 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said:

nope, no 'blame' at all 

 

what about the other 90% of our GDP?

 

you're right, the fed's did waste an opportunity to diversify earlier. I don't want them to keep making that mistake moving forward. 

 

the fact that you can type this ^ with what I'm assuming is a straight face is part of the problem. Do you really think there's nothing else going on in Canada except oil production? 

No I mean other provinces are like hobby farms....a lil in everything .......Alberta just the big rancher.....,.

but if a hobby farm focused on say maybe three things more heavily then they would make more cause trying to build up everything will never happen cause it takes more money.......

[JM_]

4 minutes ago, RowdyCanuck said:

No I mean other provinces are like hobby farms....a lil in everything .......Alberta just the big rancher.....,.

but if a hobby farm focused on say maybe three things more heavily then they would make more cause trying to build up everything will never happen cause it takes more money.......

oh I see. You're thinking AB is the big swinging d*ck of the economy. So the difference actually being 12% vs something else being 11% is what we're talking about here. 

 

AB has developed a self-importance myth to the point where you guys seem to think you create the majority of wealth in Canada. 

[Warhippy]

45 minutes ago, RowdyCanuck said:

No I mean other provinces are like hobby farms....a lil in everything .......Alberta just the big rancher.....,.

but if a hobby farm focused on say maybe three things more heavily then they would make more cause trying to build up everything will never happen cause it takes more money.......

A....hobby farm?  Seriously?  That little bit of everything is called diversity.  That diversity is why every other hobby farm is still working while the rancher is asking for handouts for it's "suppliers" 

 

 

Edited April 27, 2020 by Warhippy

[RowdyCanuck]

35 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said:

oh I see. You're thinking AB is the big swinging d*ck of the economy. So the difference actually being 12% vs something else being 11% is what we're talking about here. 

 

AB has developed a self-importance myth to the point where you guys seem to think you create the majority of wealth in Canada. 

Really? I think we proved we are the big swinger  Alberta crashes everyone else follows right behind ha  kinda sad how Canada is so dependent on one province or one thing......

[Warhippy]

1 minute ago, RowdyCanuck said:

Really? I think we proved we are the big swinger  Alberta crashes everyone else follows right behind ha  kinda sad how Canada is so dependent on one province or one thing......

Except...you crash every decade, once or twice.  As evidenced by the numbers in their entirety, not just the ones you've decided matter.  Almost 90% of our entire GDP is based outside of Alberta.

 

When you say dependent I question your actual knowledge of the word, term or active use in the Canadian economy of diversified industry

[RowdyCanuck]

12 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

A....hobby farm?  Seriously?  That little bit of everything is called diversity.  That diversity is why every other hobby farm is still working while the rancher is asking for handouts for it's "suppliers" 

 

So much for being the guy who teachers others business sense

Ha a hobby farm usually has a lil of everything but sometimes some hobby farms are better suited for other things and bigger growth. 

That way they can make the most with what they have.......follow my drift hippie....or did I dumb it down to far?

[Warhippy]

1 minute ago, RowdyCanuck said:

Ha a hobby farm usually has a lil of everything but sometimes some hobby farms are better suited for other things and bigger growth. 

That way they can make the most with what they have.......follow my drift hippie....or did I dumb it down to far?

You made zero sense at all.  I feel far more stupid for trying to follow your line of thinking here.  In one quote you claim everyone else is like a hobby farm and insinuate they don't do enough.  In this quote you claim they are better suited for other things and bigger growth.  They can make the most with what they have.  But endlessly trumpet how Alberta does more and others do less.

 

You're not only making no sense you're endlessly contradicting yourself so when you ask if you've dumbed it down, son I have to declare you're already making it plenty stupid on your own.

[RowdyCanuck]

Just now, Warhippy said:

You made zero sense at all.  I feel far more stupid for trying to follow your line of thinking here.  In one quote you claim everyone else is like a hobby farm and insinuate they don't do enough.  In this quote you claim they are better suited for other things and bigger growth.  They can make the most with what they have.  But endlessly trumpet how Alberta does more and others do less.

 

You're not only making no sense you're endlessly contradicting yourself so when you ask if you've dumbed it down, son I have to declare you're already making it plenty stupid on your own.

It's explaining why I put it that way and I answered the question for you .....it was a question .......I never said I didn't know the answer ha 

[Warhippy]

Just now, RowdyCanuck said:

It's explaining why I put it that way and I answered the question for you .....it was a question .......I never said I didn't know the answer ha 

90% of our entire GDP is created outside of oil and gas.  That's explanation enough for me.  Diversify now or die looking like Quebec, it's that simple.  Oil and Gas is never coming back to the $70 a barrel needed for profitability.  I don't want a dime of my tax money going to corporations unless it's with a clear stake in the ownership of a company coming back.  I don't want a dime of my tax money going to a company still producing in other markets while automating or shutting production here in Canada.  I don't want a dime of my tax money going to a corporation that has allowed numerous shell companies to declare bankruptcy leaving orphaned wells tot eh taxpayer to clean up.

 

I want my tax money going to Albertans, to those currently suffering in ft Mac, to a diversified economy not dependant on US oil and Gas refinement or corporations.  The rest of the nation does just fine and after 5 years is evidenced to be able to do just fine with lowered or negative trading oil prices.  So it's time to get off the teet and do something different for once.

 

Maybe...think like a hobby farm