How would Sedin point totals differ had they debuted in the "new" NHL?

[Timbermen]

If Johnny Fairy in Calgary can be a top player today, the Sedins and Bure definitely have put up a lot more points.

[JeremyCuddles]

Given the totals from this season I could see them being 85-95 point guys at least

Edited April 13, 2020 by N7Nucks

[Xanlet]

Wouldn't matter as far as cups go because the league would just change the rules regarding suspensions and continue to allow egregiously dirty plays (Boychuk on Raymond) and heavily penalize fraction of a second late hits (Rome on Horton)

Edited April 13, 2020 by Xanlet
typo

[Toyotasfan]

I don’t think a faster game would really benefit them even if there’s less clutch and grab. I really think they would’ve thrived in the late 70’s and early 80’s when their skill would have been superior and goalies were terrible with their stand up styles. As long as the team had an enforcer and a quarterback d-man on it they could’ve been putting up Gretzky like numbers 

[apollo]

13 hours ago, Toyotasfan said:

I don’t think a faster game would really benefit them even if there’s less clutch and grab. I really think they would’ve thrived in the late 70’s and early 80’s when their skill would have been superior and goalies were terrible with their stand up styles. As long as the team had an enforcer and a quarterback d-man on it they could’ve been putting up Gretzky like numbers 

Damn love that assessment. Never thought about it. 

 

Love it. Gretzky like #s... From the twins if they played in the 80s 

 

[Baratheon]

I put way more thought in to this than I should have.  In the end I voted 200 or so more.  The current speed of the game may not be suited to them as others have said.  I don't think that the modern d-man would struggle with the Sedins though.  The twins had a way of neutralizing speed once they were in the offensive zone.  Teams were reduced to trying to manhandle and bully them off the puck (something that was easier said than done).  The lighter quicker guys of today would have a hard time knocking the twins off of the puck.  

 

For some reason Chris Pronger kept popping up in my mind as I was thinking about this haha

[IBatch]

On 4/14/2020 at 12:31 AM, Toyotasfan said:

I don’t think a faster game would really benefit them even if there’s less clutch and grab. I really think they would’ve thrived in the late 70’s and early 80’s when their skill would have been superior and goalies were terrible with their stand up styles. As long as the team had an enforcer and a quarterback d-man on it they could’ve been putting up Gretzky like numbers 

The game in the 70-80's was much rougher, unless they were so good they became untouchable (Gretzy) they might have been murdered too.  Jagr scored 123 in the middle of the dead puck era - and in his prime...WG his last year he was done for sure - (dead puck era) the few before that he still managed to lead the league in assists in both of them...and score 97 and 90 points on a bad NYR squad and also in the dead puck era.  When most guys were scoring 100 points (stars) he was scoring 200, he finished ahead of the second place in scoring an average of 50 points each of his Art Ross years - and beat second place by 70 or more in points 6 times (and thats with Mario in the mix for some of them).   If you take .880 save percentages and make them .910 that means 3 more goals for every 100 shots or 30 more for every 1000.   SPs aren't so far apart as they were in 1981 and 2014 (peaks are shown here - now its closer to 20 per 100 and even less as the 90's went on)... Have mentioned this enough before....he made a mockery of the record books and the amount of star players back then in a 18-22 team league was pretty incredible.  Yzerman on one leg was better then the Sedins when they came into the league - an he was almost done.  WG had 200 ish more assists then Yzerman had points....Iginla was traded for Joe N. in the mid 90's and became one of the best players of his generation but couldn't keep up to an aging Joe N or a way past his prime WG ..   Its not hard to take players from their 30's playing guys in their 20's an establish who is better - especially if the 35 year old is better then the 25 year old etc....So lets' not be ridiculous.   The Sedins would have had a nice bump to their stats - maybe 10-15% playing in the 70-94 range....expecting him to rival Gretzy is hilarious.  

 

What i'd like to know is what WG could do today with no red line and a salary cap.  He didn't have nearly as much to work with in LA and still did some great things..I'd guess instead of 200-212 points he'd be in the 185-190 range.   His best season was a pee-wee - where he scored almost 400 goals.  Nobody before or since did what he could do - he made hyperbole seem too modest.  The most dominant athlete in the history of all sports for real.

 

As far as speed goes - Orr is still considered one of the fastest players ever (top five) - maybe the third and fourth lines weren't up to par - but the stars certainly were.  Coffey is top ten too..Federov...They don't measure the laps like they used too.  Now the players are further away from the boards when they skate them - and get to start before the clock does.  13.5 is the new 14.  Gartners time still hasn't been beat in my mind - and Bure who most rank as the fastest ever - because he looks like he was shot out of a cannon - ...and it's not like speed is everything - not even close - see Hagelin or Raymond...or Hedican.  Or Wayne Gretzky.

[IBatch]

On 4/14/2020 at 2:22 PM, apollo said:

Damn love that assessment. Never thought about it. 

 

Love it. Gretzky like #s... From the twins if they played in the 80s 

 

OK now that I saw your enthusiasm for it - and because I know how much you love the Sedins - I changed my mind and take it back (above post).  The Sedins would have retired with around 2500 points had they played from 79-95...

[189lb enforcers?]

3 hours ago, IBatch said:

OK now that I saw your enthusiasm for it - and because I know how much you love the Sedins - I changed my mind and take it back (above post).  The Sedins would have retired with around 2500 points had they played from 79-95...

Which would have been what their tombstones said, had they played during those years. 

It’s also just as ridiculous to try to imagine their “I’m tough because I take abuse and don’t fight back” celebrate-the-victim PC stuff, would have allowed them to survive back then. Let’s be realistic here. 
 

Think Gary Suter on Kariya as a nightly occurrence, not Marchand. 

Can’t score from the morgue. 
 

 

Edited April 16, 2020 by 189lb enforcers?

[IBatch]

1 minute ago, 189lb enforcers? said:

Which would have been what their tombstones said, had they played during those years. 

It’s also just as ridiculous to try to imagine their “I’m tough because I take abuse and don’t fight back” celebrate-the-victim PC stuff, would have allowed to survive back then.
 

Think Gary Suter on Kariya as a nightly occurrence, not Marchand. 

Can’t score from the morgue. 
 

 

Gary Suter on Gretzky in 96 against the US knocking him out of the series....Kariya was a tough player himself - coming back from that hit from Stevens, obviously hurt but still playing took some big heart.  I know the Marchand thing was brutal - and really hard to watch at the time or stomach (wish they would have done something) ... the Rome hit changed that series in a bad way for us.  The Sedins took their abuse like champs - and took a lot there first few years to the point where they started to doubt they could make it in this league - a lot of skilled players benifited from the lock-out and the rule changes - they were definitely were part of that group - but at the same time matured and learned to take their lumps and use their sticks too (hooks and slashes were part of their game).   Canadian hockey is my preference - but there is no denying their greatness as both players and Canucks.  Naslund was one of the best during the dead puck era - strangely his prime wasn't extended after the lock-out - part I guess was age (he was 27 when he really broke out)...

 

They would have done well in the 80's - but how well is impossible to determine.  Maybe they would have quit pre-insitgator.   Not so sure how they would have done when PHI was going around beating the crap out of everyone and anyone ... who knows maybe they would have fought themselves - wouldn't stand by myself while my twin or brother was getting maimed by Shultz or "Machine Gun" Kelly (watch some video of those animals - never gets old ha ha).   I suppose they would have been star back then too - but would have had to learn to get some respect - by liberal use of lumber or have a Semenko type on the right side every shift.   Bench clearing brawls were common enough where I'm sure they would be fighting whether or not they wanted to at some point.   Gretzky was asked a month ago if he thinks fighting will be gone from hockey eventually and his response was it already is. " players don't fight anymore, when I grew up people fought at 15, 18, 20 - now its not in Juniors or college hockey - it still happens every now and then " he shrugs and then says again "its already gone from hockey"....so from his viewpoint the era the Sedins played the last third or their careers in was tame - and now its all-star gamish.   

[189lb enforcers?]

1 hour ago, IBatch said:

Gary Suter on Gretzky in 96 against the US knocking him out of the series....Kariya was a tough player himself - coming back from that hit from Stevens, obviously hurt but still playing took some big heart.  I know the Marchand thing was brutal - and really hard to watch at the time or stomach (wish they would have done something) ... the Rome hit changed that series in a bad way for us.  The Sedins took their abuse like champs - and took a lot there first few years to the point where they started to doubt they could make it in this league - a lot of skilled players benifited from the lock-out and the rule changes - they were definitely were part of that group - but at the same time matured and learned to take their lumps and use their sticks too (hooks and slashes were part of their game).   Canadian hockey is my preference - but there is no denying their greatness as both players and Canucks.  Naslund was one of the best during the dead puck era - strangely his prime wasn't extended after the lock-out - part I guess was age (he was 27 when he really broke out)...

 

They would have done well in the 80's - but how well is impossible to determine.  Maybe they would have quit pre-insitgator.   Not so sure how they would have done when PHI was going around beating the crap out of everyone and anyone ... who knows maybe they would have fought themselves - wouldn't stand by myself while my twin or brother was getting maimed by Shultz or "Machine Gun" Kelly (watch some video of those animals - never gets old ha ha).   I suppose they would have been star back then too - but would have had to learn to get some respect - by liberal use of lumber or have a Semenko type on the right side every shift.   Bench clearing brawls were common enough where I'm sure they would be fighting whether or not they wanted to at some point.   Gretzky was asked a month ago if he thinks fighting will be gone from hockey eventually and his response was it already is. " players don't fight anymore, when I grew up people fought at 15, 18, 20 - now its not in Juniors or college hockey - it still happens every now and then " he shrugs and then says again "its already gone from hockey"....so from his viewpoint the era the Sedins played the last third or their careers in was tame - and now its all-star gamish.   

Not going to drag this one out other than to say that the cross checking Dmen, alone, would have cut their careers short, or at least their effectiveness. Having watched Chara and company against them in the Bruins series should be proof enough of their limitations against that sort of throwback 80’s style of intimidation. 
 

I mean really, Tinordi or any of the Myrzns of the day would have been able to Mandle the twins and... and... there’d be few PPs to limp onto the ice for if the refs and the culture at the time even bothered to call anything against players absolutely refusing to stick up for themselves.
 

I’m trying to be realistic. You have the Rock’em Sock’em tapes. 
 

Hockey today, Sedin hockey, wouldn’t stand a chance because of all the extra abuse that was allowed to go on. Sure, there’d be some awesome ESP Twin stuff going on in open ice and probably even the cycle, but eventually they’d be caught up to, ridden out hard or whacked, and kept from participating in the cycle, let alone in-front on the net. 
 

Makes you respect the Sundstoms just that much more. 

[IBatch]

1 hour ago, 189lb enforcers? said:

Not going to drag this one out other than to say that the cross checking Dmen, alone, would have cut their careers short, or at least their effectiveness. Having watched Chara and company against them in the Bruins series should be proof enough of their limitations against that sort of throwback 80’s style of intimidation. 
 

I mean really, Tinordi or any of the Myrzns of the day would have been able to Mandle the twins and... and... there’d be few PPs to limp onto the ice for if the refs and the culture at the time even bothered to call anything against players absolutely refusing to stick up for themselves.
 

I’m trying to be realistic. You have the Rock’em Sock’em tapes. 
 

Hockey today, Sedin hockey, wouldn’t stand a chance because of all the extra abuse that was allowed to go on. Sure, there’d be some awesome ESP Twin stuff going on in open ice and probably even the cycle, but eventually they’d be caught up to, ridden out hard or whacked, and kept from participating in the cycle, let alone in-front on the net. 
 

Makes you respect the Sundstoms just that much more. 

It really is something only maybe a Marvel character like the magic guy that time travels could figure out.   My  hackles always go up a bit whenever its suggested the players today are "so much better" then eras gone.   The Sedins after they lost all their support, a step and closing in on the rest of their contract ( a shadow of their peak to say the least) - were still putting up 50 plus points when wonder kid McDavid and Mathews were just getting started... The biggest difference between back then and now is goalie equipment, style and size of these guys (monster sized), and that the fourth line is no longer filled with hulking bruisers that for the most part can still play the game...that's about it.  IF the Sedins can get 50 plus point with zero support - about half what the very best today are getting - what are younger fans that are babies now going to say about whomever compared to McDavid?   Probably that no way he's as good as so and so....as far as speed goes...watch how they time guys now - and then go back as see if you can find video of how Bure did his laps (he lost and edge once and still made around 14 seconds and is still considered the fastest skater ever by most experts - the eye test is really all you need - look like he was shot out of a cannon - or sling shot or whatever and nobody ran to the net and used the boards to slow down like he did)...same goes with guys like Howe, Makita and Hull Sr (who is still considered a top ten fastest skater ever)...if Howe can get 40-50 points his very last season as a 50 plus year old ....against guys like Dionne and Gretzky..well yes he was awesome too..not to mention the historians that praise the original stars of the leauge and how fast some of them were - or how great they were (Shore etc.)....our bodies haven't changed that much in 100 years.   The Sedins were unique all-time players in that they were twins that played for the same franchise for their entire careers.  And they were stars for half of that and super-stars for two years when they peaked (and thanks to Crosby dealing with his concussions back then and Ovi not playing his best hockey they stole the show - and Perry - what a terrible pick for the Hart - one of the worst ever up there with Lidstroms last Norris)....100 points in any era is awesome - and they did that.  So did Naslund, Bure and Mogilny.   For those that think it's rather ordinary....well just go look at TO and find out how many guys all-time have had 100 points for them - as an original six team.    Might surprise some that we have them beat.

 

 

Edit:  Won't drag this out either - but as my parting thought I want folks to consider this:  NHL.com - who like it or not has some good hockey people that at the very least know their stuff (if they didn't no way they would be working there)...is doing a Power Ranking right now on the best by position since expansion or top 16 rankings..they did the centers first and recently did the goalies (Luongo made the list I think at 11 - have seen someone suggest he's top five - ha ha ha well thats a homer thing which yes I do understand) ..  IF H. Sedin is such a great player and destined for the HHOF - you'd think he would make the list right?  Art Ross and Hart trophy must matter for something right?  Unfortunately for him there have been too many all-time greats in that time period...and he didn't even get ONE vote.  Nobody voted for him.   The last person to get in was Lindros at 16....Thornton didn't get in so that tells you how great this list is.   Gretzy, ML, Crosby, Messier, Yzerman, Francis, Clark, Trottier, Federov, Hawerchuk, Lafontaine, Malkin....those are off the top of my head (read it about an hour ago) can't remember the rest - but it's easy to see why.  The list of guys after that also got votes makes me also realize how many great players we've had from 1968-2000ish....a murderers row of incredible players....again if a 38 year old Yzerman can clean the clock of a 20 year old Sedin on the ice....hmmm...and all the guys he played against over his career including when he was 20....not hard at all to trace thing back is it?  And BTW - Gretzky received every first vote and ML received every second vote.

Edited April 16, 2020 by IBatch

[knucklehead91]

Okay this Sedinery stuff gets even crazier. Back 2005-06 the Sedins stamped their numbers 33 and 22 on their linemate Anson Carters stats for the season 81gp 33g 22a. This was the emergence of their career, the players they became known to be.

The night they announced their retiremen shots were 33 to 22.

Then in their last game at home they autographed 22 and 33 all over the score sheet (Edler being the triplet even assisted on Daniels 23rd goal)

How crazy is that, their numbers are came up in that many times.. Starting with Anson Carter, which I never really realized his stats until I saw the list in the Pearson thread of Pearson tying Carter

 

[Dr. Crossbar]

This is an interesting question and difficult to answer. The thing is, the Sedins took 5 seasons to really come into their own. People were really questioning whether they'd ever break out and be game changers.

 

Being 2nd and 3rd overall picks, I think there'd be much more pressure in today's NHL for them to be game changers immediately, right away, much like Pettersson and Hughes.

 

So, with this in mind, I'd say there's a good chance their points in year 3, 4, 5 would be higher (maybe) just because it would be more of a pressure cooker with higher expectations. 

 

Really, their trajectory in the first four to five seasons in some way mirrors the patience given to Virtanen to be the player we need him to be.