Best NHL Defenseman All-Time

[King Heffy]

24 minutes ago, -AJ- said:

Of your implied top 7, my list has six of the same names. Looks like we're on the same page.

I'm encouraged to see so much respect for the older guys, although we don't seem to agree on the order.

[-AJ-]

1 hour ago, King Heffy said:

I'm encouraged to see so much respect for the older guys, although we don't seem to agree on the order.

Frankly, after doing so many lists over the years, I've come to accept the little things people can agree on.

[IBatch]

Lidstrom is running away...despite 18th all-time in PGP for defenseman, 6th for points and 6th in plus minus ... playing his entire career on very good to contending teams.    Borque played on worse teams and has him beat in every statistical category.  Potvin lost a few years because the draft was 20 back then but was dominant from the moment he stepped on the ice until he left and played on great teams for maybe half the time ... both these guys hit to hurt.  Shore well I get that he’s overlooked, Harvey too.   Lidstrom’s legacy was both built on winning Norris trophies after better competition retired or got older...his last one was a gimmie too, was a minus player, didn’t lead in points or anything but guess they were so used to just ticking his name by then or that he was about to retire...well who knows, definitely a big miss at the time but it counts and he has a large case full of them that’s for sure.    But I doubt he would if Coffey, Potvin, Borque, Robinson etc all started at the same time.   Larry Murphy lived in the shadows of greatness too, he never got out because he was the same age as better players from his era, and wasn’t on very good team all the time either.   And of course Park...

Edited November 22, 2020 by IBatch

[IBatch]

Lidstrom.   
 

18th in Points per Games Played

6th in plus minus

6th in points

5th in games played (soon to be six)

 

Played 20 years on very good or contending teams.   
 

Yet is leading this poll for number 2.

 

Borque

 

4th in PGP

4th in plus minus

1st in points 

4th in games played 

 

And played on worse teams for at least half his career.    And was more of a physical force.  And was their C forever. 

 

Don’t get me going on Potvin, his stats are just as gaudy as Orrs and prime Coffeys - and he was as dominant a force as you could be on the other side of the puck.  
 

But this is a democracy, will leave it open for most of the day to see if any old timers find out this robbery which is going on at the moment ... if Coffey can win a Norris in his mid thirties when Detroit was winning president’s trophies already ... against Lidstrom in his early prime  - who also couldn’t beat Leetch and Chelios, and MacInnis and Blake when they were aging or in equal primes etc etc ... then only Niedermayer and Pronger (for awhile anyways) were left and it’s Lidstrom Lidstrom Lidstrom Lidstrom Lidstrom....Borque won his back to backs with much stiffer competition, and even a 30’s Borque was too much for a prime 20’s Lidstrom to beat.   Cross era litmus test also shows a lot - more then just the stats which are pretty telling too. 
 

Now that I’ve got that out of my system, the “Perfect Human” was a sublime incredible defenseman.   Definitely Sweden’s best player ever and deserving of top five all-time D. 

Edited November 22, 2020 by IBatch

[IBatch]

Also to keep this simple going forward, going to bring the list of candidates down a little.   Anyone who go a vote or who won multiple Norris trophies/Harts.  Plus add the most nominated guy, at this point Niedermayer.    Thanks for playing!

[IBatch]

7 hours ago, King Heffy said:

I'm encouraged to see so much respect for the older guys, although we don't seem to agree on the order.

For me it’s easy.   If guys in their mid thirties can play almost as well or better then guys in their early to mid primes - you have your order right there (who is better).   It’s easy to establish era to era just by starting in present time and working your way back.   I bet all the original six stars would do just fine in today’s game.   And that the best of the 70-80-90’s would kill it too.   When you have Yzerman limping on one knee outperforming 90% of the much younger stars of the 2000’s near the end of his career it says it all.   The dead puck era for sure screwed some guys,  but Iginla played in the 90’s too...and was arguably the best of the 2000’s.   Late bloomer maybe.   But couldn’t beat the old guard either.   
 

Id have my list something like this:

 

Orr

Shore 

Potvin

Borque

Harvey

Robinson

Coffey

Lidstrom 

HM

Pronger (EDM last run - all Pronger)

MacInnis (Respect but F Calgary lol)

 

Of those guys the top five are firm.  After that it’s a lot harder.    Coffey wasn’t nearly as bad as some make him out to be on the other side of the puck.   Robinson was one of the best pure defenseman ever, and he could rush the puck with the best of them (his highlights stand up today).   Lidstrom was just very good at everything but not as elite offensively or defensively as some.   Chara and Langway are the only examples of guys that won Norris trophies on mostly or simply pure defense.   
 

Orr, Potvin and Borque are the best examples of guys who did it the best on both sides of the puck - in that order of elite level play.   Take Burns peak offense and add Chara’s peak D combine the two and it would be close to what these guys did year after year. 
 

Shore and Harvey are tough for me - but I differ to the hockey historians.  Both would have won more Norris trophies had they existed before they did.   Shore around 10, Harvey one or maybe two more which would put them on top.   Harvey some guys remember still which also helps.   He dominated like few others have, and really I should probably have him above Borque, but can’t help what I’ve seen prejudice and personal favourites always come into this. 

I like to think if I was stating a team now - who would I want on it first?  Again why it’s hard for me to consider Harvey and Shore.   But will differ to my elders.

Edited November 22, 2020 by IBatch

[IBatch]

Shore won four Harts...and when the first and second team all-star was created during his final 9 years - he was first 7, second once and one year injured.   It would be like EK starting at zero now and winning 7 Norris trophies, a runner up one year and retiring at 39. 
In 98 when The Hockey News used 50 hockey historians/experts to make a list of the greatest players ever Shore came is at number 10 (all positions)...since then they continue to rank players every few years but consider that one sacred and no players move ahead of those that at the time were retired.   Safe to say only Orr had as big an impact over the history of the NHL at that position. 

 

[smithers joe]

when i was growing, the argument was who was better orr or harvey. it was like who is better gretzky or howe? they were different. orr and gretzky revolutionized the game while harvey and howe were complete all around players. lidstrom was probably the best at everything. how many on the list were all around great defensemen?

[IBatch]

32 minutes ago, smithers joe said:

when i was growing, the argument was who was better orr or harvey. it was like who is better gretzky or howe? they were different. orr and gretzky revolutionized the game while harvey and howe were complete all around players. lidstrom was probably the best at everything. how many on the list were all around great defensemen?

Orr and Gretzky are hockey gods really, Mario too.   The simple fact that when you grew up there were actual debates on who was better Harvey or Orr says a lot on where he should end up on the list.    Shore, Harvey, Potvin, Borque, Robinson, Lidstrom, Chelios and Pronger would make my  list of all around great defenseman id think.   Pronger won a Hart too.   People forget too quickly how dominant some players were - at his peak there wasn’t a better D in the world, controlled the entire tone and pace of a game.   Almost single handedly took EDM to game seven of the final.  And then with ANA a much better team, won a cup.  Injuries shortened his career.   For me at least Lidstrom was very good at everything but his peak wasn’t as high as others on the list that were also good at everything, and also had the benefit of playing on mostly incredible teams all but two of his years...  AL Mac and Leetch also deserve some consideration as all around great D’s too.    Definitely not a big list at the top.  
 

Edit:  On Chelios.   I remember in the mid  90’s CHI rolled over us in four in the conference semi’s, and Chelios was a thorn in our side throughout the series (which was actually very close) and scored the game four OT series clinching goal.

 

Edit:  On Potvin.   If anyone could challenge prime Orr in his era it would be him.   Potvin would still lose BUT he turned around a terrible NYI from the moment he stepped on the ice.   Even won some playoff games they had no business being in.   Few played scored as many from the point as him ever - and if Wayne Gretzky says he’s the guy he feared the most and considered the toughest guy to play against will take his word for it.   Always went down the other side when Potvin was on the ice.   To me he’s the Gordie Howe of D’s (without the longevity- but he did play an awful lot of playoff hockey too) just never got to see Harvey so can’t relate but thanks for the insights.    

Edited November 22, 2020 by IBatch

[Gurn]

1 hour ago, IBatch said:

Edit:  On Chelios.   I remember in the mid  90’s CHI rolled over us in four in the conference semi’s, and Chelios was a thorn in our side throughout the series (which was actually very close) and scored the game four OT series clinching goal.

Chelios:

Played in 27 nhl seasons.

Had 4 minus years, including his first season of  12 games in 1983-84 and his last of 7 games in 2009-10 at minus-5 and -2 respectively.

Played huge minutes, hit, fought, scored and defended.

Was a nasty d-man, the best kind

Had 3 seasons of more than 200 pim, with two others being close to 200.

played 1651 games 948 points

3 Norris trophies

1 plus minus award 

 

[Ms.Glitter]

Come on voters!  

Dennis Potvin belongs on the Mount Rushmore of NHL defencemen.

 

It goes:  Orr, Potvin , Bourque, Robinson, Lidstrom, Harvey

 

Lidstrom was an excellent all-round defenceman,  but not 2nd behind Orr. 

 

I voted Al Mac because he's my fav.

 

 

Edited November 22, 2020 by Ms.Glitter

[IBatch]

1 hour ago, Ms.Glitter said:

Come on voters!  

Dennis Potvin belongs on the Mount Rushmore of NHL defencemen.

 

It goes:  Orr, Potvin , Bourque, Robinson, Lidstrom, Harvey

 

Lidstrom was an excellent all-round defenceman,  but not 2nd behind Orr. 

 

I voted Al Mac because he's my fav.

 

 

Yes he does.  Right next to Orr.  Sure he only played 15 seasons ... but retired all-time leader in most stats.   Drafted at 20 and made more impact on his team then few players regardless or position ever.  There’s a reason why he was the C on those great NYI teams - and a reason why they all called him Dad despite only being a few years older then them.  Hard to find 15 years in any other players careers that were better.   Gretzky...?  Potvin.   And I don’t have much issue with your order.   Yes I get the recency bias with Lidstrom fans, but bet none voting him in now saw much of Borque or Coffey play and none of Potvin.   To me he’s the best all around D the games ever had aside from Orr. 
 

And I’d could debate Al Mac was better then Lidstrom too.   He did win a Norris and an Conn Smythe .... the mountain I will die on is Lidstrom couldn’t win a Norris until that exceptional class of amazing defenseman all aged out.  He was 30 when he won his first one.   Nobody peaks and gets better after they are 30, including the “Perfect Human”.  Park and Murphy didn’t win one either .... and neither would have Lidstrom if he started in 1979. 

Edited November 22, 2020 by IBatch

[Gurn]

Potvin was a hell of a d man, but will never get my vote. Diss the twins and you are dead to me. 

[IBatch]

11 minutes ago, gurn said:

Potvin was a hell of a d man, but will never get my vote. Diss the twins and you are dead to me. 

Well he’s got a lot of hate over the years. “ Potvin Sucks “ is still chanted ... after all these years.    Why?  Because he was that good. 

Edited November 22, 2020 by IBatch

[Ms.Glitter]

24 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Yes he does.  Right next to Orr.  Sure he only played 15 seasons ... but retired all-time leader in most stats.   Drafted at 20 and made more impact on his team then few players regardless or position ever.  There’s a reason why he was the C on those great NYI teams - and a reason why they all called him Dad despite only being a few years older then them.  Hard to find 15 years in any other players careers that were better.   Gretzky...?  Potvin.   And I don’t have much issue with your order.   Yes I get the recency bias with Lidstrom fans, but bet none voting him in now saw much of Borque or Coffey play and none of Potvin.   To me he’s the best all around D the games ever had aside from Orr. 
 

And I’d could debate Al Mac was better then Lidstrom too.   He did win a Norris and an Conn Smythe .... the mountain I will die on is Lidstrom couldn’t win a Norris until that exceptional class of amazing defenseman all aged out.  He was 30 when he won his first one.   Nobody peaks and gets better after they are 30, including the “Perfect Human”.  Park and Murphy didn’t win one either .... and neither would have Lidstrom if he started in 1979. 

Absolutely right! 100%  

[Hockey God]

Everyone has mentioned some great players, and personally would put Orr at #1 just for how he changed the game, but one that needs more love is Viacheslav Fetisov (I think I spelled his name right?).  I remember Gretzky once saying that he was the best D he'd ever played against, and he was the immovable object not only in international play, but also mentored someone like Lidstrom in his early years.  If he had had a chance in the NHL when he was younger, I think he would have impacted the game as much as Orr, not point wise, but definitely in how you use all of the ice to dominate the opposition.  The Green Unit couldn't have worked as well without him; he was the coach on the ice, and the heart of that unit.  I still remember the 87 Canada Cup, and while everyone remembers the final Gretzky to Lemieux goal, go back and watch how Fetisov dominated Gretzky's unit for most of that series.  The grinders kept the Canadians in that last game, and that was largely because Fetisov had been tasked to shut down both Gretzky and Lemieux, and it's no accident that thee scored when he wasn't on the ice.     

[IBatch]

22 minutes ago, Hockey God said:

Everyone has mentioned some great players, and personally would put Orr at #1 just for how he changed the game, but one that needs more love is Viacheslav Fetisov (I think I spelled his name right?).  I remember Gretzky once saying that he was the best D he'd ever played against, and he was the immovable object not only in international play, but also mentored someone like Lidstrom in his early years.  If he had had a chance in the NHL when he was younger, I think he would have impacted the game as much as Orr, not point wise, but definitely in how you use all of the ice to dominate the opposition.  The Green Unit couldn't have worked as well without him; he was the coach on the ice, and the heart of that unit.  I still remember the 87 Canada Cup, and while everyone remembers the final Gretzky to Lemieux goal, go back and watch how Fetisov dominated Gretzky's unit for most of that series.  The grinders kept the Canadians in that last game, and that was largely because Fetisov had been tasked to shut down both Gretzky and Lemieux, and it's no accident that thee scored when he wasn't on the ice.     

Good job on mentioning Fetisov.   I hope folks pay attention to his name...he should be getting nominations soon.

[linden17]

There is just too much bias because so many of us never saw many of these guys play. Orr from what I hear was pretty good too. It’s just natural for us to pick a player that we remember seeing play live. Lidstrom is a safe choice but shore from the records and stories has to be right up there. “Bend your knee’s , Cherry”!!!!

[King Heffy]

1 hour ago, linden17 said:

There is just too much bias because so many of us never saw many of these guys play. Orr from what I hear was pretty good too. It’s just natural for us to pick a player that we remember seeing play live. Lidstrom is a safe choice but shore from the records and stories has to be right up there. “Bend your knee’s , Cherry”!!!!

Harvey's doing pretty well and I'm willing to be lots of people voting for him never saw him play..  I think someone changed their vote away from him though   I think the bigger issue is that different eras prized different types of defenseman; no position has changed as much over the past 50 years.

Edited November 24, 2020 by King Heffy

[Putgolzin]

On 11/22/2020 at 10:23 AM, smithers joe said:

when i was growing, the argument was who was better orr or harvey. it was like who is better gretzky or howe? they were different. orr and gretzky revolutionized the game while harvey and howe were complete all around players. lidstrom was probably the best at everything. how many on the list were all around great defensemen?

That was my thought too - for the folks downplaying Lidstrom in order to exalt their pick, there was a year that Lidstrom was chosen as the leagues best Defensive Defenseman and also the leagues best Offensive Defenseman. He was unreal.

 

On the other hand, I've still got to choose Orr. The year he scored 139 points he was a Plus 124. For all the people who regard plus/minus as a useless stat - by the point that it's in the triple digits, it means something.