Honest Conversation With Those Who Still Support Management

[canuck73_3]

43 minutes ago, awalk said:

The level that some folks here were 'dumbfounded' by any criticism of Benning I think warrants a look back on it all, given the state Benning and Weisbrod left the team in

There were many who saw his positives and negatives and don't dwell on only the negative. I see far more deflections of his successes which he had a few and it's not just "rose coloured glasses" takes either. He wasn't purely all doom and gloom either. He had many faults, he started a decent core to build on but he completely failed to build a competent defense, loyal to a fault with mediocre coaching, and over valued and over paid for support pieces. 

 

However that said calling out some of the over negativity does not equal being dumbfounded by any criticism. Myself and many others have conceded that he had moves that warrant criticism literally every GM does. Name me any GM someone will tell you where they fk'd up. 

 

I loved Gillis' moves to get us to being a Presidents trophy cup contending team, but his drafting was horrid and the chase for the cup left Benning with virtually nothing to start from. For all his faults Benning left a pretty solid core to build with/from even if you don't agree how he got there. 

[awalk]

56 minutes ago, canuck73_3 said:

There were many who saw his positives and negatives and don't dwell on only the negative. I see far more deflections of his successes which he had a few and it's not just "rose coloured glasses" takes either. He wasn't purely all doom and gloom either. He had many faults, he started a decent core to build on but he completely failed to build a competent defense, loyal to a fault with mediocre coaching, and over valued and over paid for support pieces. 

 

However that said calling out some of the over negativity does not equal being dumbfounded by any criticism. Myself and many others have conceded that he had moves that warrant criticism literally every GM does. Name me any GM someone will tell you where they fk'd up. 

 

I loved Gillis' moves to get us to being a Presidents trophy cup contending team, but his drafting was horrid and the chase for the cup left Benning with virtually nothing to start from. For all his faults Benning left a pretty solid core to build with/from even if you don't agree how he got there. 

I wasn't referring to you, if that helps. I typically have agreed with your posts and find you to be quite knowledgeable. 

[canuck73_3]

Just now, awalk said:

I wasn't referring to you, if that helps. I typically have agreed with your posts and find you to be quite knowledgeable. 

I understand that part and didn't take that as an attack, there are and were many more in the middle.
 

Just as there are many constant negative posters and many too optimistic as well. Being a Canuck message board I expect a fair chunk of the overly optimistic to out to lunch optimistic posters. 
 

On the flip side the constant negative ones get grating, like the season is long and sometimes shitty enough, we don’t need the constant complaints especially when celebrating one of the few positives. 

[awalk]

1 minute ago, canuck73_3 said:

I understand that part and didn't take that as an attack, there are and were many more in the middle.
 

Just as there are many constant negative posters and many too optimistic as well. Being a Canuck message board I expect a fair chunk of the overly optimistic to out to lunch optimistic posters. 
 

On the flip side the constant negative ones get grating, like the season is long and sometimes shitty enough, we don’t need the constant complaints especially when celebrating one of the few positives. 

It's tough not to be extremely negative these days. I actually find it cathartic to read that others are as over it as I am at this point.

 

THAT said I made a thread specifically about nostalgic positivity today so I am trying to be better 

Edited December 21, 2022 by awalk

[ilduce39]

35 minutes ago, awalk said:

The level that some folks here were 'dumbfounded' by any criticism of Benning I think warrants a look back on it all, given the state Benning and Weisbrod left the team in

Benning and Weisbrod left the team with a 2 larger bad contracts on the books in Myers and OEL.  Some guys like Dickinson, Pearson, Poolman who could go.  And some wasted cap in Holtby, Virtanen and Ferland that lasted 1 year.  Plus a pretty thin prospect pool but some good young NHL’ers like Hogs and Pods. 

 

The team has a deep forward group, including a pretty good 1-2 punch at C.  Weak defence but a franchise guy in Hughes and a good starter in Demko.
 

Contract wise, everyone can play so if you can’t move them and arent expecting to contend, just take your medicine and keep them. There’s worse fates than having Pearson and Dickinson in the bottom 6 of the roster. 
 

The team was ripe for a re-tool. Trade a forward piece or two, particularly Miller and try to rebuild the back end.
 

The problem is, new Jim kept everyone.  Plus bring in Mikheyev. And the one guy he decided to move in Dickinson, cost a 2nd to ship out. 

 

Weak prospect pool?  The Chytil, Lundqvist, 1st return would have given us a big, young LW/C to replace Miller… a 1st and a RD who was worth a 1st to the Stars.  And who knows what else was out there since it’s clear they didn’t really want to move Miller.  
 

Then, moving the rights to Boeser and/or simply letting him go to FA frees up the cap needed to add guys like Bear and/or Marino if you want to add young RHD. For a lot less than the 14+ mil those two are going to command next year.

 

Now, that’s with the benefit of hindsight.  At this point looks like we should sell on Kuzmenko and Horvat, whom I’d rather have than Boeser/Miller but it is what it is.
 

I think they need to trade Schenn as well while circling back this summer.  But these kinds of moves needed to be made last offseason. 

[awalk]

6 minutes ago, ilduce39 said:

Benning and Weisbrod left the team with a 2 larger bad contracts on the books in Myers and OEL.  Some guys like Dickinson, Pearson, Poolman who could go.  And some wasted cap in Holtby, Virtanen and Ferland that lasted 1 year.  Plus a pretty thin prospect pool but some good young NHL’ers like Hogs and Pods. 

 

The team has a deep forward group, including a pretty good 1-2 punch at C.  Weak defence but a franchise guy in Hughes and a good starter in Demko.
 

Contract wise, everyone can play so if you can’t move them and arent expecting to contend, just take your medicine and keep them. There’s worse fates than having Pearson and Dickinson in the bottom 6 of the roster. 
 

The team was ripe for a re-tool. Trade a forward piece or two, particularly Miller and try to rebuild the back end.
 

The problem is, new Jim kept everyone.  Plus bring in Mikheyev. And the one guy he decided to move in Dickinson, cost a 2nd to ship out. 

 

Weak prospect pool?  The Chytil, Lundqvist, 1st return would have given us a big, young LW/C to replace Miller… a 1st and a RD who was worth a 1st to the Stars.  And who knows what else was out there since it’s clear they didn’t really want to move Miller.  
 

Then, moving the rights to Boeser and/or simply letting him go to FA frees up the cap needed to add guys like Bear and/or Marino if you want to add young RHD. For a lot less than the 14+ mil those two are going to command next year.

 

Now, that’s with the benefit of hindsight.  At this point looks like we should sell on Kuzmenko and Horvat, whom I’d rather have than Boeser/Miller but it is what it is.
 

I think they need to trade Schenn as well while circling back this summer.  But these kinds of moves needed to be made last offseason. 

They seem to have messed up the Miller situation in hindsight, and while Mikheyev has been good, was it really necessary to sign him? Not sure. 

 

A huge problem is Benning left us as a middle of the road, yet cap maxed team, who traded away back to back first round picks... only to end up consistently in the mushy middle, which is objectively the worst place to be. Not good enough for playoffs, not good enough for a top 5 pick. So while he may have left us with some solid forwards, a superstar in Petey, a potential superstar goalie in Demko... the end results were this team and organization is a mess.

 

And new Jim has not done great at cleaning it up yet. But gotta give that time.

[JohnTavares]

6 minutes ago, ilduce39 said:

Benning and Weisbrod left the team with a 2 larger bad contracts on the books in Myers and OEL.  Some guys like Dickinson, Pearson, Poolman who could go.  And some wasted cap in Holtby, Virtanen and Ferland that lasted 1 year.  Plus a pretty thin prospect pool but some good young NHL’ers like Hogs and Pods. 

 

The team has a deep forward group, including a pretty good 1-2 punch at C.  Weak defence but a franchise guy in Hughes and a good starter in Demko.
 

Contract wise, everyone can play so if you can’t move them and arent expecting to contend, just take your medicine and keep them. There’s worse fates than having Pearson and Dickinson in the bottom 6 of the roster. 
 

The team was ripe for a re-tool. Trade a forward piece or two, particularly Miller and try to rebuild the back end.
 

The problem is, new Jim kept everyone.  Plus bring in Mikheyev. And the one guy he decided to move in Dickinson, cost a 2nd to ship out. 

 

Weak prospect pool?  The Chytil, Lundqvist, 1st return would have given us a big, young LW/C to replace Miller… a 1st and a RD who was worth a 1st to the Stars.  And who knows what else was out there since it’s clear they didn’t really want to move Miller.  
 

Then, moving the rights to Boeser and/or simply letting him go to FA frees up the cap needed to add guys like Bear and/or Marino if you want to add young RHD. For a lot less than the 14+ mil those two are going to command next year.

 

Now, that’s with the benefit of hindsight.  At this point looks like we should sell on Kuzmenko and Horvat, whom I’d rather have than Boeser/Miller but it is what it is.
 

I think they need to trade Schenn as well while circling back this summer.  But these kinds of moves needed to be made last offseason. 

I love the optimism but again, there's just such a thin line between delusion and optimism.

 

"2 larger bad contracts on the books in Myers and OEL"

 

That type of cap inefficiency is enough to kill the chances to compete for years.  $13M invested into two bottom pairing defenseman is a death sentence in the flat cap world.

 

"Some guys like Dickinson, Pearson, Poolman who could go"

 

Some guys totaling nearly $10M in cap space that went to absolutely nothing.  This isn't a small oversight, this is a huge mistake.

 

"Good young NHL'ers like Hogs and Pods"

 

Neither guys are in the lineup at the moment.  If the Canucks had proper depth, these guys would be in Abbotsford developing right now.

 

'Deep forward group"

 

We had a deep forward group? We were 15th in goal scoring last year.  You also propose to trade Miller... if we trade Miller, how would we be deep upfront?

 

"The problem is, new Jim kept everyone.  Plus bring in Mikheyev. And the one guy he decided to move in Dickinson, cost a 2nd to ship out. "

 

Dickinson was brought in by JB... that was the price to move him to stay cap compliant. Mikheyev and Kuzmenko have been fantastic... are you even watching the games?

 

"Weak prospect pool"

 

Don't complain about what might have happened. It literally makes no sense because JB was NOT going to trade Miller at the deadline anyway because this is his "all-in team".  

 

"Boeser..."

 

This is hindsight 20/20... most called the contract extension a great deal at the time.  I'm sure JR could have tapped into his crystal ball and predicted that Boeser would fall off a cliff.

 

"Ripe for a re-tool"

 

This is what I mean by delusion/denial.  This team is SO far from contention that the best pathway to build a Stanley Cup contender is to blow it up. Anyone that thinks otherwise... well good luck to you.

[JohnTavares]

1 hour ago, canuck73_3 said:

There were many who saw his positives and negatives and don't dwell on only the negative. I see far more deflections of his successes which he had a few and it's not just "rose coloured glasses" takes either. He wasn't purely all doom and gloom either. He had many faults, he started a decent core to build on but he completely failed to build a competent defense, loyal to a fault with mediocre coaching, and over valued and over paid for support pieces. 

 

However that said calling out some of the over negativity does not equal being dumbfounded by any criticism. Myself and many others have conceded that he had moves that warrant criticism literally every GM does. Name me any GM someone will tell you where they fk'd up. 

 

I loved Gillis' moves to get us to being a Presidents trophy cup contending team, but his drafting was horrid and the chase for the cup left Benning with virtually nothing to start from. For all his faults Benning left a pretty solid core to build with/from even if you don't agree how he got there. 

Agree to disagree but that's fine.  Again... thin line between delusion/optimism.

 

Where's the solid core?

 

Petey, Hughes and Demko are great pieces... there's no doubt.

 

Who else?  Where are the rest of these pieces that supposedly supplement this apparent "pretty solid core".  A solid core in the NHL is usually 6-8 fixtures on your roster that you can build around and compete with year in and year out.

Where are the other 3-5 pieces?  You can't sell me a car and tell me it's pretty solid when the engine is missing.

 

EDIT: Take any half competitive team and I could easily name 6-8 pieces of a solid core.  What JB left this team... is NOT a solid core.

 

 

Edited December 21, 2022 by JohnTavares

[canuck73_3]

12 minutes ago, JohnTavares said:

Agree to disagree but that's fine.  Again... thin line between delusion/optimism.

 

Where's the solid core?

 

Petey, Hughes and Demko are great pieces... there's no doubt.

 

Who else?  Where are the rest of these pieces that supposedly supplement this apparent "pretty solid core".  A solid core in the NHL is usually 6-8 fixtures on your roster that you can build around and compete with year in and year out.

Where are the other 3-5 pieces?  You can't sell me a car and tell me it's pretty solid when the engine is missing.

 

EDIT: Take any half competitive team and I could easily name 6-8 pieces of a solid core.  What JB left this team... is NOT a solid core.

 

 

Bo, Miller you know our leading scorers the last two years. but omitting them makes your argument look better, so I get it. 

 

Even if traded they are what will bring in another piece or 2 of the core if not more if both end up being moved.

[awalk]

1 minute ago, canuck73_3 said:

Bo, Miller you know our leading scorers the last two years. but omitting them makes your argument look better, so I get it. 

 

Even if traded they are what will bring in another piece or 2 of the core if not more if both end up being moved.

Yeah you cannot omit Horvat and Miller when talking about our core.

 

If Miller is untradeable now, it is what it is you just hold onto him and in hindsight should have moved him.

 

But Bo will bring in a pretty massive haul. 

[Ballisticsports.]

1 hour ago, canuck73_3 said:

There were many who saw his positives and negatives and don't dwell on only the negative. I see far more deflections of his successes which he had a few and it's not just "rose coloured glasses" takes either. He wasn't purely all doom and gloom either. He had many faults, he started a decent core to build on but he completely failed to build a competent defense, loyal to a fault with mediocre coaching, and over valued and over paid for support pieces. 

 

However that said calling out some of the over negativity does not equal being dumbfounded by any criticism. Myself and many others have conceded that he had moves that warrant criticism literally every GM does. Name me any GM someone will tell you where they fk'd up. 

 

I loved Gillis' moves to get us to being a Presidents trophy cup contending team, but his drafting was horrid and the chase for the cup left Benning with virtually nothing to start from. For all his faults Benning left a pretty solid core to build with/from even if you don't agree how he got there. 

Why do some think it's Gilles and JB that scout the players they draft?

They have a scouting team 

Even using HINDSIGHT who di the President Winning management scouting team  miss out picking that were obvious to EVERY Tom Dick and Harry that they should have picked being at the bottom picks of each round?

Using HINDSIGHT you can say JB Scouting team was horrid too with much higher picks and HIGHER failures

 

JB was left players from a President Cup team

We should have won a cup if not for bad luck

Using HINDSIGHT we can see no GM here or scouting team should be praised until they build a Stanley Cup team

 

I personally thought JB should have been gone 2 yrs before he did and the bubble saved him imo

Had he been I think we'd be farther ahead than where we are now and have remained since then

[-DLC-]

32 minutes ago, JohnTavares said:

Agree to disagree but that's fine.  Again... thin line between delusion/optimism.

 

Where's the solid core?

 

Petey, Hughes and Demko are great pieces... there's no doubt.

 

Who else?  Where are the rest of these pieces that supposedly supplement this apparent "pretty solid core".  A solid core in the NHL is usually 6-8 fixtures on your roster that you can build around and compete with year in and year out.

Where are the other 3-5 pieces?  You can't sell me a car and tell me it's pretty solid when the engine is missing.

 

EDIT: Take any half competitive team and I could easily name 6-8 pieces of a solid core.  What JB left this team... is NOT a solid core.

 

 

Enough with the "delusional" told you so crap.

 

Especially bumping your old threads in order to do so.

 

.

[JohnTavares]

25 minutes ago, canuck73_3 said:

Bo, Miller you know our leading scorers the last two years. but omitting them makes your argument look better, so I get it. 

 

Even if traded they are what will bring in another piece or 2 of the core if not more if both end up being moved.

We're talking about management. You said JB left a good core... why would you attribute Horvat to that?  

 

You know who drafted Horvat right? It wasn't Jim Benning hint hint.

Edited December 22, 2022 by JohnTavares

[JohnTavares]

9 minutes ago, -DLC- said:

Enough with the "delusional" told you so crap.

 

Especially bumping your old threads in order to do so.

 

.

Where were you protecting me when I was getting dogged/abused when I made this post?

 

 

But now that I turned out to be right, it's suddenly 'stop with the told you so crap'.

Edited December 22, 2022 by JohnTavares

[Alflives]

2 minutes ago, JohnTavares said:

Where were you protecting me when I was getting dogged/abused when I made this post?

 

 

But now that I turned out to be right, it's suddenly 'stop with the told you so crap'.

 

Isn’t this our club’s home board?  Why would any Canuck fan use a hated Loser Leaf as their poster name?  Hopefully it’s some kind of mockery because that’s all Pyjama Boy deserves.  Worst contract in the league! 

#hatetheLOSERLeafs.  

 

[JohnTavares]

2 minutes ago, Alflives said:

 

Isn’t this our club’s home board?  Why would any Canuck fan use a hated Loser Leaf as their poster name?  Hopefully it’s some kind of mockery because that’s all Pyjama Boy deserves.  Worst contract in the league! 

#hatetheLOSERLeafs.  

 

Deb are you going to do something about this? @-DLC-

 

Or just pile it on me because I'm used to it here.

 

Alf, we've been through this 100 times.

 

I picked this username in 2006.  Unless I knew ahead of time that John Tavares was going to sign with the Leafs, then what you're saying really has no merit.  Either way, why does my username matter?  Why does it bother you so much?  I guess life must be going good for you're bothered by the username of a random internet stranger on a hockey message board.

Edited December 22, 2022 by JohnTavares

[awalk]

26 minutes ago, JohnTavares said:

Deb are you going to do something about this? @-DLC-

 

Or just pile it on me because I'm used to it here.

 

Alf, we've been through this 100 times.

 

I picked this username in 2006.  Unless I knew ahead of time that John Tavares was going to sign with the Leafs, then what you're saying really has no merit.  Either way, why does my username matter?  Why does it bother you so much?  I guess life must be going good for you're bothered by the username of a random internet stranger on a hockey message board.

If I could go back to 2006 and smack 2006 me for picking 'awalk' as my username I'd find a way to do it twice :D 

[Alflives]

27 minutes ago, JohnTavares said:

Deb are you going to do something about this? @-DLC-

 

Or just pile it on me because I'm used to it here.

 

Alf, we've been through this 100 times.

 

I picked this username in 2006.  Unless I knew ahead of time that John Tavares was going to sign with the Leafs, then what you're saying really has no merit.  Either way, why does my username matter?  Why does it bother you so much?  I guess life must be going good for you're bothered by the username of a random internet stranger on a hockey message board.

Okay.  Point taken.  Still hate that guy and the Leafs.  

[Alflives]

6 minutes ago, awalk said:

If I could go back to 2006 and smack 2006 me for picking 'awalk' as my username I'd find a way to do it twice :D 

Your name and little walking guy are awesome!  Love that combination.  

[awalk]

16 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Your name and little walking guy are awesome!  Love that combination.  

Thanks! It wasn't until I found the walking guy that it became good lol that lil guy is awesome