Honest Conversation With Those Who Still Support Management

[MeanSeanBean]

2 minutes ago, hammertime said:

Sure you want me to address Brock. We no longer had any need for him. Even if he scored 30 finally hallelujah he wasn't the player all excuses aside dad, injuries etc him bouncing back or not wasn't going to push the needle for us. Kuz might have a better season this year than Brock ever has and doesn't move the needle. 

 

We need a soft scoring winger like we need a second belly button. We need one for 6.65m even less. 

 

To be fair top 4 RHD is a hard position to fill slamming yourself up against the cap makes it nearly impossible. Nevermind that you didn't sign your Captain because you offered him less than cookie dough Brock. 

 

I'm about to go get some 1000 island dressin cuz I got depression watching these guys fumble on the retool and rebuild simultaneously.

Lol you still didn't address a single point I made in my post. You're just bitching about it.

[SilentSam]

3 minutes ago, AnthonyG said:

JT Miller…. Massive opportunity missed.

Nope,  you’d still have that silent culture of Horvat..  the culture of silent and docility has to go.

good luck Bo.

[hammertime]

2 minutes ago, Shayster007 said:

Lol you still didn't address a single point I made in my post. You're just bitching about it.

It really doesn't need addressing because it doesn't matter and never would have. If Brock re bounded it wouldn't have made a difference to where we are in the standings. As I said in my post Kuzmenko is more than making up for Brocks shortcomings right now we have several of the leagues best value contracts in Miller this year, Bo this year,  Schenn and Kuz and we still don't hold a candle to say Minni with 12+ M dead cap.  

 

This MGMT group could have made capspace but they had the munchies.  

[MeanSeanBean]

Just now, hammertime said:

It really doesn't need addressing because it doesn't matter and never would have. If Brock re bounded it wouldn't have made a difference to where we are in the standings. As I said in my post Kuzmenko is more than making up for Brocks shortcomings right now we have several of the leagues best value contracts in Miller this year, Bo this year,  Schenn and Kuz and we still don't hold a candle to say Minni with 12+ M dead cap.  

 

This MGMT group could have made capspace but they had the munchies.  

Right on, great debate bud. 

[hammertime]

11 minutes ago, Shayster007 said:

Right on, great debate bud. 

So you agree.? Because there are several spicy topics for debate in my post. The reality is the moves they have made have been like watching mason raymond do laps. 

[canuck73_3]

2 hours ago, hammertime said:

We needed another soft scoring winger like we needed a 3rd eyebrow.

 

We needed a $7m +/- soft scoring winger like we needed another belly button.

 

Even if true and more so especially if true. They did nothing to improve the D which literally any Canuck fan could have told you was the glaring hole on the team. Instead they spent +10 million on wingers Brock and Mikheyev (Who I do appreciate). When Lazar, Aman, Kuzmenko would have been adequate even if Kuzmenko flopped our problems weren't on the wing they were on D and at 3c. If you want to retool and be serious about going for it with this team these guys were luxuries not answers. They spent their dinner money on cookie dough ice cream.

 

Writing a guy off 7 months after being drafted is beyond dumb. Period. 

[hammertime]

1 hour ago, canuck73_3 said:

Writing a guy off 7 months after being drafted is beyond dumb. Period. 

Guess we will see but I bet nearly the entire rest of the 1st round wouldn't trade us 1 for 1 right now.  

[MeanSeanBean]

9 hours ago, hammertime said:

So you agree.? Because there are several spicy topics for debate in my post. The reality is the moves they have made have been like watching mason raymond do laps. 

[Gawdzukes]

16 hours ago, hammertime said:

I think the most frustrating part of all this is how painfully obvious the moves that should have been made were to most of us fans of the team last year. 

 

Brock should have been traded if he couldn't be traded he should have been let walk. Signing him was never a good idea. It doesn't take @EddieVedder to know we'd reached the "end of the road"

 

Miller should have been moved at the deadline.  Rumored. , Nils Lundkvist, a first-round pick, and Filip Chytil could we have twisted their arm to make that a 2023 1st I think so. 

 

Sign Bo what on earth were they thinking they could have gotten it done if they hadn't been so ham fisted and dumb struck with JT Miller. 7m would have locked him up this offseason.

 

With Miller and Brocks money off the books they would have the cap flexability to properly address our D.

 

Lastly WTF were they thinking drafting Lekkerimaki this was a completely baffling pick.   

 

They got a pick for Hamonic great keep it. What do we need Dermott for???

 

Great job on the Bear trade 

 

The Stillman trade was completely un necessary. 

 

IMO this MGMT group doesn't have a clue what they are doing. Benning was an upgrade. 

94% spot on. They had every opportunity to put this team on the right track. Easy moves in front of their face and they blew it to epic proportions. Except for the Lekkerimaki pick ... it's somewhat understandable and still has a lot of time to play out. 

 

Dermott - useless

Stillman - useless

Miller will screw us for years and years

Boeser - just idiotic to staggering degrees that they extended him for 3 years

Let Bo go for two years older JT giveaway boy - just brutally stupid

 

I know you just stated this but it makes me feel better to rant a bit.

 

I would take Jim B back in a heartbeat.

[Alflives]

3 minutes ago, Gawdzukes said:

94% spot on. They had every opportunity to put this team on the right track. Easy moves in front of their face and they blew it to epic proportions. Except for the Lekkerimaki pick ... it's somewhat understandable and still has a lot of time to play out. 

 

Dermott - useless

Stillman - useless

Miller will screw us for years and years

Boeser - just idiotic to staggering degrees that they extended him for 3 years

Let Bo go for two years older JT giveaway boy - just brutally stupid

 

I know you just stated this but it makes me feel better to rant a bit.

 

I would take Jim B back in a heartbeat.

Much prefer Gillis.  He’s the guy who was actually successful following our owner’s direction sell futures in “win now” moves. 

[DrJockitch]

9 minutes ago, Gawdzukes said:

94% spot on. They had every opportunity to put this team on the right track. Easy moves in front of their face and they blew it to epic proportions. Except for the Lekkerimaki pick ... it's somewhat understandable and still has a lot of time to play out. 

 

Dermott - useless

Stillman - useless

Miller will screw us for years and years

Boeser - just idiotic to staggering degrees that they extended him for 3 years

Let Bo go for two years older JT giveaway boy - just brutally stupid

 

I know you just stated this but it makes me feel better to rant a bit.

 

I would take Jim B back in a heartbeat.

Agree with all of it except the last. Almost every potential qualified option would be better than JB back. 
The Stillman trade was about opening up cap more than acquiring Stillman but they saw a potential D I guess. Pro scouting failing the Canucks still. 
They needed to open up the cap because of inability to remove players from lineup while adding more wingers.  

[Gawdzukes]

12 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Much prefer Gillis.  He’s the guy who was actually successful following our owner’s direction sell futures in “win now” moves. 

Hmm. maybe. Gillis was so terrified of doing anything at the end. Looked like a greasy drunken deer in the headlights. I think the entire league hates him so I don't know if that would fly.

 

2 minutes ago, DrJockitch said:

Agree with all of it except the last. Almost every potential qualified option would be better than JB back. 
The Stillman trade was about opening up cap more than acquiring Stillman but they saw a potential D I guess. Pro scouting failing the Canucks still. 
They needed to open up the cap because of inability to remove players from lineup while adding more wingers.  

Well I'm flexible. I would take Raffi Torres, Free Willy, or a pet rock, before this group of idiots we have now. 

 

I realize the Stillman trade was related to cap but they're the idiots that spent near $20 mil on not defence to begin with. Fools. A second rounder to cure self inflicted stupidity before the season starts is tragically bad when we're in desperate need of such assets.

[Gawdzukes]

12 hours ago, Shayster007 said:

Why? I have seen this argument several times here and it's baffling to me, and a prime case of revisionist history.

 

In 20-21 he was arguably our best forward. He lead the team in points and had taken massive steps defensively. In 21-22 he had a very bad year, but there is a very reasonable response to of why that could happen. A young man was in the process of losing his father while he was away from home.

 

Boeser had a severely limited value coming off of a bad year, and a massive QO looming over. But in the last 2 years, he had been our best forward, and been bad (but it's very hard to blame him for why).

 

There were rumors that management had explored a trade, but the value because of the QO was just not there. Not only was NO ONE at the time mentioning the felt that the best option (or even an option at all) was to let Boeser walk but it would have been completely nonsensical.

No matter what the past was and regardless of his dad there is no way he should have been signed for 3 years, unless it was for <$5 mil. This group is so dumb. It's like Miller, they claim no one wanted him so they signed him for $56 mil. WHAT? lol that's so dumb. If they really wanted to protect the investment should have not signed Mikeyhev and signed his one year qualifying offer. Really should have made the tough decision and let him go though. We simply didn't have the money. Now we have another huge anchor besides Miller.

 

Brock should have been dumped at the TDL. We simply didn't have nor do we have the money to be playing hopeful games with the cap. 

[BlakeQuinnAndEggs]

12 hours ago, hammertime said:

We needed another soft scoring winger like we needed a 3rd eyebrow.

 

We needed a $7m +/- soft scoring winger like we needed another belly button.

 

Even if true and more so especially if true. They did nothing to improve the D which literally any Canuck fan could have told you was the glaring hole on the team. Instead they spent +10 million on wingers Brock and Mikheyev (Who I do appreciate). When Lazar, Aman, Kuzmenko would have been adequate even if Kuzmenko flopped our problems weren't on the wing they were on D and at 3c. If you want to retool and be serious about going for it with this team these guys were luxuries not answers. They spent their dinner money on cookie dough ice cream.

 

Obviously they drafted, In their eyes, best player available regardless of position which is the best strategy.

 

The last time we drafted for strategic position over best player available, jimbo drafted juolevi...

[MeanSeanBean]

30 minutes ago, Gawdzukes said:

No matter what the past was and regardless of his dad there is no way he should have been signed for 3 years, unless it was for <$5 mil. 

 

Brock should have been dumped at the TDL. We simply didn't have nor do we have the money to be playing hopeful games with the cap. 

I don't agree, at all. It's like everyone conveniently forgets the bubble year when they make this argument. Boeser was playing extremely well that season. He had taken huge strides defensively and was playing legitimately good 2 way hockey. It's extremely difficult to judge a played based off a season like Brock had last year. Go re-read the Brock Boeser signing thread. Very few people here critical at the time. Infact, the overwhelming majority were applauding it. It's completely bogus to now say it was a terrible signing because it hasn't worked out. 

 

You yourself said this about the subject "Yah, I like Brock. That's a decent value and he is a legit PP threat. The contract should be tradeable as he's a perennial 25 goal guy and maybe 30+ in the next 3 years" 

 

That doesn't really sound like at the time you felt "Brock should have been dumped", so it's disingenuous to now say it was a horrible signing at the time we there's no way we should have ever done it.

 

This team had/has extremely limited resources to make this team better. Retaining Brock and hoping for a bounce back was a necessity.

Edited December 21, 2022 by Shayster007

[Alflives]

39 minutes ago, Gawdzukes said:

Hmm. maybe. Gillis was so terrified of doing anything at the end. Looked like a greasy drunken deer in the headlights. I think the entire league hates him so I don't know if that would fly.

 

Well I'm flexible. I would take Raffi Torres, Free Willy, or a pet rock, before this group of idiots we have now. 

 

I realize the Stillman trade was related to cap but they're the idiots that spent near $20 mil on not defence to begin with. Fools. A second rounder to cure self inflicted stupidity before the season starts is tragically bad when we're in desperate need of such assets.

The owner’s hate guys like Gillis who speak out publicly against their owner.  Gillis spoke out publicly against the owner’s direction.  Other owners (the league brass too) want “old boys” club members, who follow direction.  Benning will get hired again (likely assistant or advisor role) because he followed the owner’s direction to the last.  He never publicly spoke against his owner.    

[Nucker 67]

Looking at who JR/PA brought in so far:

 

Aman

Kuzmenko

Lazar

Mikheyev

Joshua

Dermott

Stillman

Studnicka

Bear

Pederson

 

Other than possibly Stillman, I can't really complain about any of these guys. I like the additions.

 

Miller or Horvat - one has to go. My guess is Bo.

 

IMO, it's some of the veteran players, guys that have been around a while, have little left to prove and some nights seem to be dragging this team down. 

 

Boeser

Garland

Pearson - even though he's been out, he needs to go

Myers

OEL - I can't see them being able to move this contract

 

If they can switch out most of these players, that might be enough to change the team - bringing in the right players. Then if Demko comes back, ready to be Demko again, who knows what the Canucks will do over the next 3 months.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Gawdzukes]

8 minutes ago, Shayster007 said:

I don't agree, at all. It's like everyone conveniently forgets the bubble year when they make this argument. Boeser was playing extremely well that season. He had taken huge strides defensively and was playing legitimately good 2 way hockey. It's extremely difficult to judge a played based off a season like Brock had last year. Go re-read the Brock Boeser signing thread. Very few people here critical at the time. Infact, the overwhelming majority were applauding it. It's completely bogus to now say it was a terrible signing because it hasn't worked out. 

 

You yourself said this about the subject "Yah, I like Brock. That's a decent value and he is a legit PP threat. The contract should be tradeable as he's a perennial 25 goal guy and maybe 30+ in the next 3 years" 

 

That doesn't really sound like at the time you felt "Brock should have been dumped", so it's disingenuous to now say it was a horrible signing at the time we there's no way we should have ever done it.

 

This team had/has extremely limited resources to make this team better. Retaining Brock and hoping for a bounce back was a necessity.

Ha, I figured you might dig that up. Fair enough but I was feeling a little emotional and supportive of Boeser when I made that comment. I did qualify it with the last statement because I legitimately thought if he played half decent he'd be tradeable. However, his defensive game is garbage and always has been except as you mentioned in that bubble year where he actually showed some guff and team work. If you go back further you will see my many comments that reflect my true feelings of how is trade value is zero ... as in no one wants him.

 

But to each their own. I think it was horribly stupid to sign him with Miller and then Mikeyhev subsequently signed. I thought they signed him simply to trade him at some point. Good you like him cause we're stuck with him and his almost $7 mil in wasted cap. If we were actually re-building I think he would have been a fine stop gap but not for a team that actually has serious goals of winning.

[Alflives]

4 minutes ago, NUCKER67 said:

Looking at who JR/PA brought in so far:

 

Aman

Kuzmenko

Lazar

Mikheyev

Joshua

Dermott

Stillman

Studnicka

Bear

Pederson

 

Other than possibly Stillman, I can't really complain about any of these guys. I like the additions.

 

Miller or Horvat - one has to go. My guess is Bo.

 

IMO, it's some of the veteran players, guys that have been around a while, have little left to prove and some nights seem to be dragging this team down. 

 

Boeser

Garland

Pearson - even though he's been out, he needs to go

Myers

OEL - I can't see them being able to move this contract

 

If they can switch out most of these players, that might be enough to change the team - bringing in the right players. Then if Demko comes back, ready to be Demko again, who knows what the Canucks will do over the next 3 months.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think the question is whether our key core guys (Petey, Demko, Hughes, Miller, Bo) are good enough to be winners providing they have an excellent supporting cast?  Can we build a good enough supporting cast, with those guys eating up the majority of the cap, to win?  

[MeanSeanBean]

2 minutes ago, Gawdzukes said:

Ha, I figured you might dig that up. Fair enough but I was feeling a little emotional and supportive of Boeser when I made that comment. I did qualify it with the last statement because I legitimately thought if he played half decent he'd be tradeable. However, his defensive game is garbage and always has been except as you mentioned in that bubble year where he actually showed some guff and team work. If you go back further you will see my many comments that reflect my true feelings of how is trade value is zero ... as in no one wants him.

 

But to each their own. I think it was horribly stupid to sign him with Miller and then Mikeyhev subsequently signed. I thought they signed him simply to trade him at some point. Good you like him cause we're stuck with him and his almost $7 mil in wasted cap. If we were actually re-building I think he would have been a fine stop gap but not for a team that actually has serious goals of winning.

Putting words into my mouth at the end a little bit. While I do like Boeser, I don't think he should be on this team. Nor do I think Miller should, or Horvat unfortunately. Re-signing him and hoping for a bounce back to try to mine value out of an asset that had none was 100% the right move by management this summer though.

 

What irritates me is the idea that this was a horrible signing they day it happened and it's been a failure ever since. It wasn't a bad signing, at the time it was a good signing. The majority saw it for what it was, a horrible QO and a down year. We needed to hope he rebounded so we could trade him for some value. Literally no one was even mentioning the idea of letting him walk being the best option. It was always a sign or trade, and clearly there just wasn't a trade available.