[Rumour] J.T. Miller Trade/Contract Talks

[stawns]

2 hours ago, Maniwaki Canuck said:

We pretty much know by heart the talking points on all sides of this issue.  Seems like nobody's made an original observation in this thread during this calendar year.   Just down to who yells longest and loudest, or most convincingly (to themselves) claims to read Miller's or management's minds.  As if our arguments based on incomplete information were going to make something happen. 

speculating?  On a discussion board?  Who'da thunk it

[SilentSam]

42 minutes ago, JM_ said:

 

[SilentSam]

Phone woes today….  Russian spy $&!# 

[stawns]

2 hours ago, garthsbutcher said:

I think Bo is falling out of favour with new management and many fans myself included. If you get a great offer you move him

in a one goal game in the last minute, it was Bo out there

[Junkyard Dog]

2 hours ago, garthsbutcher said:

I think Bo is falling out of favour with new management and many fans myself included. If you get a great offer you move him

Just show them the 2019-20 playoffs. He'd become an untouchable then. Captain Clutch.

[Jester13]

13 minutes ago, stawns said:

I never said he wasn't a leader, he clearly is.  However, he's not a guy I'd ever have as a captain.  

You've sure been downplaying his leadership qualities and impact on the team this year. Also, how has Miller been since the OT play after getting slashed? Do you think Miller learned from Boudreau a little more after that? It sure seems like Miller has grown a lot even since that moment in the year. 

 

Ask yourself this: would we be in this situation we are right now - i.e. playing meaningful games trying to make the playoffs - without Miller's leadership this year? Do you think Bo has the ability to lead us into the fight like Miller does? 

[T.Demko]

2 hours ago, garthsbutcher said:

I think Bo is falling out of favour with new management and many fans myself included. If you get a great offer you move him

I'm not opposed to moving Bo, but if we feel Bo is falling out of favour with the management, and for obvious reasons, other teams are also noticing it and aren't going to provide a great offer.

 

I think Bo could still bring in a fair haul, however it won't be a  "great" offer.  We'll need prospect and picks only to clear out the cap, since trading Bo means management has decided to re-sign Miller... which in this case, it most likely won't happen until summer or next deadline, where management has already agreed with Miller camp on the terms of the extension.

[T.Demko]

Miller is playing out of his mind, and could have very well played himself out of this trade deadline as his price is probably at an all time high.  If any team is willing to pay the price this year, it will be a hell of a payday for us.

 

That being said, it isn't all rainbows and butterflies for us as well.  His recent play means his signing value is going higher.  He is definitely playing himself into double digits, 7+ years with NMC.  Yes, he will definitely get that offered by some teams in the open market, and deservingly so, so we should be fully ready for that if we want to keep Miller moving forward.  No way in hell he is signing the "7M 5 years" deal some are suggesting just so they can pump their "keep Miller" narrative. 

 

His level of play, and his next contract value are correlated, and we've got to keep our expectation realistic.

[Junkyard Dog]

1 minute ago, T.Demko said:

Miller is playing out of his mind, and could have very well played himself out of this trade deadline as his price is probably at an all time high.  If any team is willing to pay the price this year, it will be a hell of a payday for us.

 

That being said, it isn't all rainbows and butterflies for us as well.  His recent play means his signing value is going higher.  He is definitely playing himself into double digits, 7+ years with NMC.  Yes, he will definitely get that offered by some teams in the open market, and deservingly so, so we should be fully ready for that if we want to keep Miller moving forward.  No way in hell he is signing the "7M 5 years" deal some are suggesting just so they can pump their "keep Miller" narrative. 

 

His level of play, and his next contract value are correlated, and we've got to keep our expectation realistic.

If he keeps up a McDraisaitl-like point pace the rest of the way on top of everything else he brings then yeah 10M+.

[J-Dizzle]

15 minutes ago, T.Demko said:

I'm not opposed to moving Bo, but if we feel Bo is falling out of favour with the management, and for obvious reasons, other teams are also noticing it and aren't going to provide a great offer.

 

I think Bo could still bring in a fair haul, however it won't be a  "great" offer.  We'll need prospect and picks only to clear out the cap, since trading Bo means management has decided to re-sign Miller... which in this case, it most likely won't happen until summer or next deadline, where management has already agreed with Miller camp on the terms of the extension.

Bo has been terrible this year AND he’s on pace for about 25 goals/45-50 points. I’d think long and hard before moving on from that kind of production. 
 

edit:  math correction… 27 goals and 26 assists. 53 points. 

Edited March 10, 2022 by J-Dizzle

[Junkyard Dog]

17 minutes ago, Jester13 said:

You've sure been downplaying his leadership qualities and impact on the team this year. Also, how has Miller been since the OT play after getting slashed? Do you think Miller learned from Boudreau a little more after that? It sure seems like Miller has grown a lot even since that moment in the year. 

 

Ask yourself this: would we be in this situation we are right now - i.e. playing meaningful games trying to make the playoffs - without Miller's leadership this year? Do you think Bo has the ability to lead us into the fight like Miller does? 

Bo already showed that in the playoffs before in two separate years. As I recall correctly he was more impactful than the Sedins vs CGY on a line with Ronald Kenins of all people and Sven Baertschi. Tied for the team lead in points that playoffs playing bottom 6 minutes and was 60% on the dot as a rookie. I shouldn't have to remind anyone of his playoff performance in the bubble where he lead the team with 10 goals and tied for the lead in GWGs. I could remind you of when Horvat scored the GWG in the OHL finals game 7 too.

 

Prior to coming to Van and having a good playoffs Miller had 26 points in 61 games in the playoffs with only 3 of those goals.

 

Horvat is a consistent playoff performer and has proven to be a clutch one. Trade Garland and Boeser before Horvat. 

[Jester13]

3 minutes ago, Junkyard Dog said:

Bo already showed that in the playoffs before in two separate years. As I recall correctly he was more impactful than the Sedins vs CGY on a line with Ronald Kenins of all people and Sven Baertschi. Tied for the team lead in points that playoffs playing bottom 6 minutes and was 60% on the dot as a rookie. I shouldn't have to remind anyone of his playoff performance in the bubble where he lead the team with 10 goals and tied for the lead in GWGs. I could remind you of when Horvat scored the GWG in the OHL finals game 7 too.

 

Prior to coming to Van and having a good playoffs Miller had 26 points in 61 games in the playoffs with only 3 of those goals.

 

Horvat is a consistent playoff performer and has proven to be a clutch one. Trade Garland and Boeser before Horvat. 

Well, I'm talking about Miller's impact on the team this year and how much he's grown as a leader. Lots of posters on these boards like to bring up Miller slamming his stick and the OT play that not even McDavid could have made it back to the bench in time to help prevent the goal, and they use these moments to downplay Miller's leadership. Even Boudreau has been saying multiple times how he's our "offensive star", our "catalyst in the room and our leader", yet many want to then bring up how Horvat shows up in the playoffs. Granted, Bo is a great player, and he has shown that he can show up when it matters, however, when it comes to making the playoffs and never giving up, even after the historically poor start we had this year, it wasn't Bo who was leading us forward but rather Miller. This isn't a knock on Bo per say, but more of large praise for Miller. 

 

Personally, I don't think we're far off from contending, and I don't think we should trade any of Petey, Hughes, Demko, Bo, Miller, Brock, or Garland. They all have more gears to hit. I'd like to see Dickie, Poolman, Chiasson, Hoglander (maybe), Halak, even potentially Myers and Hamonic all get traded before the former mentioned players. I get that we need to bolster our right-side D, but we could also give Juulsen more of a chance to develop under Shaw, Burroughs as well, and then bring up Rathbone for next year as well. Essentially, get rid of dead weight, fill as much as possible with our younger, faster prospects, and see what our guys can do under Boudreau for a full season. Motte can be replaced from within, as can Chiasson and Dickie. The issue might be, however, with finding takers on our dead weight, which might mean getting rid of sweeteners. Getting rid of one or two of our stars, I think, is the wrong way to go. 

[T.Demko]

12 minutes ago, J-Dizzle said:

Bo has been terrible this year AND he’s on pace for about 25 goals/45-50 points. I’d think long and hard before moving on from that kind of production. 
 

edit:  math correction… 27 goals and 26 assists. 53 points. 

Not giving up on Bo, nor am I actively advocating for his trade.  Just stating if management wants to keep Miller, Bo is the likely candidate out, and it would justify it enough for me to be ok with it.  I like Bo as a player, not taking anything away from him.

[stawns]

35 minutes ago, Jester13 said:

You've sure been downplaying his leadership qualities and impact on the team this year. Also, how has Miller been since the OT play after getting slashed? Do you think Miller learned from Boudreau a little more after that? It sure seems like Miller has grown a lot even since that moment in the year. 

 

Ask yourself this: would we be in this situation we are right now - i.e. playing meaningful games trying to make the playoffs - without Miller's leadership this year? Do you think Bo has the ability to lead us into the fight like Miller does? 

So?  He's not the kind of guy I would ever want leading my team.  If I were a coach hed be too bipolar for me to have as a Captain..........the high highs are great, but the low lows are too toxic, imo and remember,  BB hasn't seen those lows from him yet either.

 

Leys not forget who took the team on his back in the bubble........it was #53

Edited March 10, 2022 by stawns

[T.Demko]

3 minutes ago, Jester13 said:

Personally, I don't think we're far off from contending, and I don't think we should trade any of Petey, Hughes, Demko, Bo, Miller, Brock, or Garland. They all have more gears to hit. I'd like to see Dickie, Poolman, Chiasson, Hoglander (maybe), Halak, even potentially Myers and Hamonic all get traded before the former mentioned players. I get that we need to bolster our right-side D, but we could also give Juulsen more of a chance to develop under Shaw, Burroughs as well, and then bring up Rathbone for next year as well. Essentially, get rid of dead weight, fill as much as possible with our younger, faster prospects, and see what our guys can do under Boudreau for a full season. Motte can be replaced from within, as can Chiasson and Dickie. The issue might be, however, with finding takers on our dead weight, which might mean getting rid of sweeteners. Getting rid of one or two of our stars, I think, is the wrong way to go. 

I don't think we're close to contending.  We're a team that could make the playoffs convincingly under Bruce, but to win it all in the playoffs, we need another gear, and we aren't there yet, especially on the defensive end.  

 

That is a lot of deadweight, some even expensive, and it is going to take a lot of sweeteners for us to rid of them.  We're going to be throwing our future out, again, which we really can't afford to do so.  We can either buyout, or let the bad contracts run its course, while properly building and solidifying from within.

[Junkyard Dog]

Just now, Jester13 said:

Well, I'm talking about Miller's impact on the team this year and how much he's grown as a leader. Lots of posters on these boards like to bring up Miller slamming his stick and the OT play that not even McDavid could have made it back to the bench in time to help prevent the goal, and they use these moments to downplay Miller's leadership. Even Boudreau has been saying multiple times how he's our "offensive star", our "catalyst in the room and our leader", yet many want to then bring up how Horvat shows up in the playoffs. Granted, Bo is a great player, and he has shown that he can show up when it matters, however, when it comes to making the playoffs and never giving up, even after the historically poor start we had this year, it wasn't Bo who was leading us forward but rather Miller. This isn't a knock on Bo per say, but more of large praise for Miller. 

 

Personally, I don't think we're far off from contending, and I don't think we should trade any of Petey, Hughes, Demko, Bo, Miller, Brock, or Garland. They all have more gears to hit. I'd like to see Dickie, Poolman, Chiasson, Hoglander (maybe), Halak, even potentially Myers and Hamonic all get traded before the former mentioned players. I get that we need to bolster our right-side D, but we could also give Juulsen more of a chance to develop under Shaw, Burroughs as well, and then bring up Rathbone for next year as well. Essentially, get rid of dead weight, fill as much as possible with our younger, faster prospects, and see what our guys can do under Boudreau for a full season. Motte can be replaced from within, as can Chiasson and Dickie. The issue might be, however, with finding takers on our dead weight, which might mean getting rid of sweeteners. Getting rid of one or two of our stars, I think, is the wrong way to go. 

Miller is an emotional leader for sure. He's more like Kesler in that regard. Isn't necessarily a good or bad thing.

 

The deadweight isn't gonna be easy to get rid of. It's gonna be costly and our prospect pool are bare. We need to add not subtract. Especially at D where there's no succession plan at RD. If we want to take that next step we need more credible guys there than Juulsen long-term. 

 

We also can't re-sign everyone an address the needs. One, if not both Boeser and Garland have to go. Especially if we're re-signing Miller. Getting rid of 1 or 2 quality forwards earns us cap space and quality return. Cap space we can allocate toward addressing needs and re-signing people and youngsters that can fit long-term while also addressing these same needs. 

 

Overall there will likely be tough choices some people won't like no matter what direction we decide to go. We're arriving at a crossroads this coming off-season.

[Jester13]

6 minutes ago, Junkyard Dog said:

Miller is an emotional leader for sure. He's more like Kesler in that regard. Isn't necessarily a good or bad thing.

 

The deadweight isn't gonna be easy to get rid of. It's gonna be costly and our prospect pool are bare. We need to add not subtract. Especially at D where there's no succession plan at RD. If we want to take that next step we need more credible guys there than Juulsen long-term. 

 

We also can't re-sign everyone an address the needs. One, if not both Boeser and Garland have to go. Especially if we're re-signing Miller. Getting rid of 1 or 2 quality forwards earns us cap space and quality return. Cap space we can allocate toward addressing needs and re-signing people and youngsters that can fit long-term while also addressing these same needs. 

 

Overall there will likely be tough choices some people won't like no matter what direction we decide to go. We're arriving at a crossroads this coming off-season.

It sure is a conundrum for this management group, especially considering they're all new to the organization. Whatever move(s) they do make better be good, or we could end up fooked for years to come, and they'll never hear the end of it from fans. 

[Provost]

12 minutes ago, Jester13 said:

It sure is a conundrum for this management group, especially considering they're all new to the organization. Whatever move(s) they do make better be good, or we could end up fooked for years to come, and they'll never hear the end of it from fans. 

Yep, the team has made it into a really difficult decision.

 

Are we really a top 5 team in the league lien the last 30+ games have shown?  Are we really a bubble playoff team like our overall record for this season and the last few have shown?

 

Is Demko and an (likely) unsustainable career year for Miller hiding big flaws in the roster?

 

Can we afford to keep even the current roster once raises are in place for the next two years?  How do we actually improve it with our cap situation?

 

We could lock in Miller at an $8.5x8 year deal in the summer thinking we got a discount and he regresses to his career averages next season and then declines gradually (or quickly) completely closing our competitive window in the Hughes/Petterson era which an anchor contract?

 

Is Miller a late blooming superstar that can maintain a PPG pace through his mid 30’s that we can bet the bank on and move on from younger players like Boeser and Horvat?   Will he even sign here if we load up the dump truck full of money to his door?
 

No one knows the answers for sure.

 

In my mind, the risk of downside with Miller is just too great to lock him in during a career year at his age and where the rest of the roster is.  Our defence needs too much work for us to be a contending team.  We need more high end prospects coming down the pipeline so we can continually replace expensive veterans with cheap over performing ELC’s to extend a competitive window.

 

For me it is just a matter of timing and the right deals coming up.

Edited March 11, 2022 by Provost

[Junkyard Dog]

2 minutes ago, Jester13 said:

It sure is a conundrum for this management group, especially considering they're all new to the organization. Whatever move(s) they do make better be good, or we could end up fooked for years to come, and they'll never hear the end of it from fans. 

That's the beauty of a Canadian Market. 

 

Personally I would move Miller for a king's ransom but if we are to re-sign him I would try to make it shorter term and front loaded, even if we have to pay extra. I wouldn't want to risk extra down years with Miller at a high cap hit.

 

Something like a 10M x 5 years, front loaded. I have a feeling he could get around 9M though long-term, maybe more if he can continue this current pace. Quality player. 

 

Personally that's me.

[aGENT]

11 minutes ago, SilentSam said:

 

Why do the Rangers or anybody else need a depreciating asset like Miller?

 

a single Cup Run??

 

omg

Yes. A Stanley Cup. The entire reason these guys play/manage hockey.

 

9 minutes ago, The Lock said:

But the premise to where you're thinking JT Miller would even be signing such a contract is what I mean by "fear'. It also seems to assume that we'd actually be willing to sign that contract. Given the new management hasn't even signed A contract like at all, this, to me, sounds like fear.

That's his comparative contract value. What else would he be signing? I don't think we will be signing him to that but that means he's moving on. Therefore, it's pretty clear, given management's comments on not letting UFA's walk, that trading him is our only option.

 

9 minutes ago, The Lock said:

 

You can talk about what happens to players in their 30's all you want and you'd be right, but it completely dodges what I'm saying rather than facing what I'm saying head on. It doesn't address what I'm talking about.

 

I'm not sure what you're talking about. 

 

Forwards, overwhelmingly, decline sharply, starting at 32. That's just statistics. We're not even in our contention window yet and that's simply not a contract we should be signing because of pretty clear statistics and math and the timing (2+years as stated by management) of our contention window.