[Rumour] J.T. Miller Trade/Contract Talks

[ABNuck]

2 minutes ago, JM_ said:

Depends on the trading partner. Just for e.g., take Vegas who is currently 200k over the cap for next season, but year after they have 17 mil open. If we retain, it makes it pretty easy for them to bring Miller aboard now, and have space for him in 2 seasons. 

Actually an excellent point...but who do we get in return from VGH? If we're retaining just to give VGK a shot at the cup then the return better be spectacular...we are in a H2H competition with them for one of the bottom 4 playoff spots. JT could be worth more to us, as we try to make the playoffs next year, than the return from them. It's the following years that have me concerned. I'd rather see him head to the Eastern Conf.

[ABNuck]

3 minutes ago, Alflives said:

And your post is why Miller, if traded, will be going to Pittsburgh, or Boston.  Two teams that are in closing windows.  They can afford to give up guys in the middle of their careers because they will be rebuilding in a couple.  So Marino and Carlo types.

And I agreed with you...JT to Pitts for Marino and Kap (now that it was pointed out to me that they've resigned Rust - I wanted him instead) would be pretty dang good return...just not 100% sure PIT would go for it...they may see JT's future contract as a bit of an anchor as well, which might de-value him a bit in their eyes.

[JM_]

24 minutes ago, ABNuck said:

Actually an excellent point...but who do we get in return from VGH? If we're retaining just to give VGK a shot at the cup then the return better be spectacular...we are in a H2H competition with them for one of the bottom 4 playoff spots. JT could be worth more to us, as we try to make the playoffs next year, than the return from them. It's the following years that have me concerned. I'd rather see him head to the Eastern Conf.

Theodore  not likely. Probably more like a package of Roy, Hague or Whitecloud, 1st and 2nd round picks/prospects. 

 

Boston would be better for us for a bunch of reasons. 

[Warhippy]

1 hour ago, ABNuck said:

Miller is a poor fit for NJ...doesn't fit their compete window. If they give up a good future prospect (the #2 this year), all they are guaranteed is 1 year of JT at a decent cap hit. After that the salary to production scale will not make sense once some of their other prospects need to get paid. They would effectively be giving up a current prospect (whoever they would pick at #2) + a future prospect (whoever they can't sign down the road and must move on from due to JT's anchor contract that he'd be due next year)...not a good fit.

So...jersey can sign Boeser but not miller?  99 point 5.25 million miller who plays c/rw/lw is not as valuable as 50 point Boeser at rw.

 

Boeser is not getting yu pick #2 and is not supplanting Bratt

[Warhippy]

1 hour ago, ABNuck said:

That's exactly my point...he's a rental. The only teams that rent players are ones whose compete window is now. Teams who are looking at the future do not waste resources on rentals. It makes his market very narrow and as such, stunts his return.

Miller nets you as much as Giroux did the flyers or Hall did the Devil's.  Period.

 

Selling him for scraps and conditions is criminally ridiculous asset management

[higgyfan]

32 minutes ago, JM_ said:

Theodore  not likely. Probably more like a package of Roy, Hague or Whitecloud, 1st and 2nd round picks/prospects. 

 

Boston would be better for us for a bunch of reasons. 

Agreed.  Boston seems like the perfect fit for JT and he wouldn't be a rental.  

Miller for DeBrusk + Frederik + Lysell.

 

With assets like: Debrusk, Garland/Boeser, Hogs, Lysell and Rathbone I don't see a problem finding top

pairing you RD.

 

Already, I can see Garland for Matt Roy.

[Me_]

17 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

Miller nets you as much as Giroux did the flyers or Hall did the Devil's.  Period.

 

Selling him for scraps and conditions is criminally ridiculous asset management

Major step backward to a Cup.

[Warhippy]

31 minutes ago, Me_ said:

Major step backward to a Cup.

OK now...I want you to be chummy with reality for just a moment.  Handshake it if you have to or give it some love in a porta loo.

 

Vancouver, with our bottom 6 and defense is capable of taking out which teams in a 7 game no holds barred series to make the stanley cup finals

 

Edmonton

Calgary

Colorado

Nashville

St Louis

Los Angeles

Las Vegas

Minnesota

 

Now.  If we make the Stanley cup finals.  We are capable of taking out which team to win the cup with said same bottom 6 and defense?

 

Tampa Bay

Carolina

New York

Florida

Pittsburgh

Boston

 

We are soooooo much more than a single JT Miller away from winning the cup it is genuinely sad.  By the time we have acquired the depth pieces we need to capably say we can beat any of those 3 western teams and then hang with the beasts of the east Miller will be aged out, Horvat will be in his 30's and Pettersson will still look like a bean pole with eyes

 

Ya, I get how valuable JT is to this team, but we are deluding ourselves if we're considering that we're closer to a cup keeping him than we are by trading him in hopes to fill the depth holes we have with him in the line up.

Edited May 30, 2022 by Warhippy

[Alflives]

1 hour ago, ABNuck said:

And I agreed with you...JT to Pitts for Marino and Kap (now that it was pointed out to me that they've resigned Rust - I wanted him instead) would be pretty dang good return...just not 100% sure PIT would go for it...they may see JT's future contract as a bit of an anchor as well, which might de-value him a bit in their eyes.

Miller is a rental to Pit.  

[Alflives]

12 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

OK now...I want you to be chummy with reality for just a moment.  Handshake it if you have to or give it some love in a porta loo.

 

Vancouver, with our bottom 6 and defense is capable of taking out which teams in a 7 game no holds barred series to make the stanley cup finals

 

Edmonton

Calgary

Colorado

Nashville

St Louis

Los Angeles

Las Vegas

Minnesota

 

Now.  If we make the Stanley cup finals.  We are capable of taking out which team to win the cup with said same bottom 6 and defense?

 

Tampa Bay

Carolina

New York

Florida

Pittsburgh

Boston

 

We are soooooo much more than a single JT Miller away from winning the cup it is genuinely sad.  By the time we have acquired the depth pieces we need to capably say we can beat any of those 3 western teams and then hang with the beasts of the east Miller will be aged out, Horvat will be in his 30's and Pettersson will still look like a bean pole with eyes

 

Ya, I get how valuable JT is to this team, but we are deluding ourselves if we're considering that we're closer to a cup keeping him than we are by trading him in hopes to fill the depth holes we have with him in the line up.

We can win any series because we have Demko.  

[Warhippy]

34 minutes ago, Alflives said:

We can win any series because we have Demko.  

2007, Luongo vs Anaheim.

[I.Am.Ironman]

Realistically, we are a big/not small bodied top pair RHD, a young top line winger, a faceoff/shutdown 3C, and a few sandpaper bottom 6 forwards away from contending. If trading JT can potentially fill some of those needs, particularly the first 2, then we have to look at it. If we don't, then we need to fill those holes from within, UFA or trading other players. Which can take years and likely leaves us with a JT Miller who is playing below his contract. Personally, I don't see how we fill those holes without trading him. Granted, we need the right deal which is easier said than done.

Edited May 31, 2022 by I.Am.Ironman

[higgyfan]

2 hours ago, Warhippy said:

OK now...I want you to be chummy with reality for just a moment.  Handshake it if you have to or give it some love in a porta loo.

 

Vancouver, with our bottom 6 and defense is capable of taking out which teams in a 7 game no holds barred series to make the stanley cup finals

 

Edmonton

Calgary

Colorado

Nashville

St Louis

Los Angeles

Las Vegas

Minnesota

 

Now.  If we make the Stanley cup finals.  We are capable of taking out which team to win the cup with said same bottom 6 and defense?

 

Tampa Bay

Carolina

New York

Florida

Pittsburgh

Boston

 

We are soooooo much more than a single JT Miller away from winning the cup it is genuinely sad.  By the time we have acquired the depth pieces we need to capably say we can beat any of those 3 western teams and then hang with the beasts of the east Miller will be aged out, Horvat will be in his 30's and Pettersson will still look like a bean pole with eyes

 

Ya, I get how valuable JT is to this team, but we are deluding ourselves if we're considering that we're closer to a cup keeping him than we are by trading him in hopes to fill the depth holes we have with him in the line up.

So what do you think?  The Canucks might make it to a conference final in 2030?  SC final in 2032?

 

Might be easier to sell the team to Houston.

[ABNuck]

3 hours ago, Warhippy said:

So...jersey can sign Boeser but not miller?  99 point 5.25 million miller who plays c/rw/lw is not as valuable as 50 point Boeser at rw.

 

Boeser is not getting yu pick #2 and is not supplanting Bratt

It's not Miller's current value that is the issue here...it's his future value vs. the contract he'd be signing that could hurt a team who's compete window is 2-3 years down the road. That is why Boeser is more valuable to them in their future compete window. I'm not 100% certain that Boeser would be enough to net the 2nd O/A this year, but it's close. Miller just simply does not work at all for a team like NJ. I think if Fitz traded for JT and then handed him a contract for 7 x 7.5, he'd be fired 3 years from now when they're paying a 32 year old Miller for 50 points vs. paying 6.0mil for a 28 year old Boeser for the same...that's 1.5mil a year that could be used to bolster a team that's within its compete window with their current core. Miller to NYR or another team who's compete window is now and for the next 2 years makes WAY more sense than him going to a team that just needs a placeholder (albeit a very very good placeholder, but a placeholder nonetheless) until their window opens. I like Miller. My hope would be that he signs with us. But anything more than 4 years at 8mil simply crushes our own future compete window. And I'm 99.9% confident that JT wants to get paid, and he wants to get paid for the next 6+ years...doesn't work for us. So let's take the prospects and picks and build to our window in 2 years.

 

3 hours ago, Warhippy said:

Miller nets you as much as Giroux did the flyers or Hall did the Devil's.  Period.

 

Selling him for scraps and conditions is criminally ridiculous asset management

The return for Giroux as a rental was only 1 prospect, albeit a good one, a protected 1st (which is now punted down the road) and a third. The Flyers had to toss in 2 prospects + a 5th round pick AND retain 50% of Giroux's final year. Also, the BIG difference between Giroux and Miller is that Giroux has already been paid for his high-end years, he is now on the backside of his career and will likely sign for 50% what he made this year and for a short term. Miller will be signing for 50% MORE than he made this year AND with some danger zone (age 31+) contract term...THAT is what makes him different and more difficult to trade. He will absolutely be valuable next year to a team whose compete window is right now, but he becomes a very big liability to a team beyond that, so how much would a GM give for a future liability. As I stated in my original proposal, any GM will certainly have to pay the Canucks for Miller's services for next year, but how many will be willing to sacrifice much beyond that for what will ultimately become an anchor liability contract. And Kravtsov is hardly scraps...he's 22 years old and could fit in nicely on a team that has another young up-and-coming Russian (Podz) as well as a Belarussian (Klimovich), it might be just what he needs to get on track. I think it would be worth the shot...he is still projected as a top 6 prospect and depth (plus a great 1st line, strong D & a hot goalie) is what ultimately runs a team deep in the playoffs...Kravtsov fits into that package.

[Warhippy]

8 minutes ago, higgyfan said:

So what do you think?  The Canucks might make it to a conference final in 2030?  SC final in 2032?

 

Might be easier to sell the team to Houston.

I think 2023 playoff bubble team, contending by 2025.

 

If you wanna be smug that's cool.  People hate the truth and they don't like reality.  They like to believe Boeser alone will get them the 2nd overall or that magically our depleted and non existent prospect pool will all magically turn in to quality role players and Miller et all will all take uber team friendly deals and everyone born in BC is coming back to play here.

 

But that aint factual, realistic or gonna happen.  The truth is we are not competing next year, possibly the year after.  We're in a division with McJesus and the Kings.  Anaheim is WAY ahead of us in terms of their own rebuild as well.  The Knights will be like the Sharks in that they roll us based on their size and back end skill.  Then there is the Phlegms.  That's JUST our division.  

 

Trading Miller in hopes of recouping a solid and quality return for a player of his calibre with his cap hit (with or without retention) is our best path towards actual long term contention.  The alternative is we do what the Canucks do every single decade in that we stockpile a few good players, acquire a smattering or prospects/picks then trade it all to compete two years before we're ready and wonder what went wrong.  It's a model we've stuck to since inception and we have exactly as many cups in that amount of time to show for it as the Leafs.

 

I want more.  I will suffer another year or two for more.  We deserve it.

[ABNuck]

It's looking like that NYR 2nd to WPG might just get bumped to a first (it's 5-1 NY right now in the 3rd)...what do you think WarHippy...ask for Kravtsov, that 2022 second, a third in 2023 and a prospect for Miller? Then add the 2023 third to Boeser to get NJ's 2nd O/A? I'd hate to have to add our 15 O/A to Boeser to get that 2nd, but with Jiricek as the prize...maybe?

[Warhippy]

3 minutes ago, ABNuck said:

It's not Miller's current value that is the issue here...it's his future value vs. the contract he'd be signing that could hurt a team who's compete window is 2-3 years down the road. That is why Boeser is more valuable to them in their future compete window. I'm not 100% certain that Boeser would be enough to net the 2nd O/A this year, but it's close. Miller just simply does not work at all for a team like NJ. I think if Fitz traded for JT and then handed him a contract for 7 x 7.5, he'd be fired 3 years from now when they're paying a 32 year old Miller for 50 points vs. paying 6.0mil for a 28 year old Boeser for the same...that's 1.5mil a year that could be used to bolster a team that's within its compete window with their current core. Miller to NYR or another team who's compete window is now and for the next 2 years makes WAY more sense than him going to a team that just needs a placeholder (albeit a very very good placeholder, but a placeholder nonetheless) until their window opens. I like Miller. My hope would be that he signs with us. But anything more than 4 years at 8mil simply crushes our own future compete window. And I'm 99.9% confident that JT wants to get paid, and he wants to get paid for the next 6+ years...doesn't work for us. So let's take the prospects and picks and build to our window in 2 years.

 

The return for Giroux as a rental was only 1 prospect, albeit a good one, a protected 1st (which is now punted down the road) and a third. The Flyers had to toss in 2 prospects + a 5th round pick AND retain 50% of Giroux's final year. Also, the BIG difference between Giroux and Miller is that Giroux has already been paid for his high-end years, he is now on the backside of his career and will likely sign for 50% what he made this year and for a short term. Miller will be signing for 50% MORE than he made this year AND with some danger zone (age 31+) contract term...THAT is what makes him different and more difficult to trade. He will absolutely be valuable next year to a team whose compete window is right now, but he becomes a very big liability to a team beyond that, so how much would a GM give for a future liability. As I stated in my original proposal, any GM will certainly have to pay the Canucks for Miller's services for next year, but how many will be willing to sacrifice much beyond that for what will ultimately become an anchor liability contract. And Kravtsov is hardly scraps...he's 22 years old and could fit in nicely on a team that has another young up-and-coming Russian (Podz) as well as a Belarussian (Klimovich), it might be just what he needs to get on track. I think it would be worth the shot...he is still projected as a top 6 prospect and depth (plus a great 1st line, strong D & a hot goalie) is what ultimately runs a team deep in the playoffs...Kravtsov fits into that package.

You're LITERALLY creating the argument of WHY Miller is in fact worth that and more.  So thank you.

 

Remind me the last time a player as versatile as Miller, with his age and production was available to start a season at under $5.5 million. Now retain some of that.  25%?  maybe 30%?  Hell 50%?

 

What is a 99 point C/LW/RW worth for under $5 million?  Hell how about under $3.25 million?  Think only contending teams will pay for that?  Every bubble team in the league will line up for that knowing if it doesn't work out, the TDL means they can recoup their losses.

 

Miller si worth whatever another team wants to pay him.  You can claim NJ doesn't want him, but you dangle Miller to Ferguson and I am sure he is interested.  A team, that won the draft lottery 3 times in the least 6 years has the assets and cap space right now to entertain the thought.

 

Boeser is what he is.  A 25 goal-25 assist winger.  He has a $7.5 million QO for one year or is possibly to be had for less for longer term.  But 50-55 point wingers are a dime a dozen right now in the league.  He is also not supplanting Bratt off of that top line 

 

Miller, at this value; for his contract and his lack of an NTC/NMC for his production is an absolute steal of a bargain the type the league hasn't seen in decades.

 

As for Kravtsov.  Lemme ask you.  What value does Tryamkin have in a trade?  Why is this important?  before you jump in about rfa/ufa or age.  He is as tangible and asset to any other team as Kravtsov is to us.  With less intangibles.  There is ZERO onus on Kravtsov to show up for the Rangers, he might only want to play for one or two teams.  Plus he's in russia and they are on the verge of complete mobilization for combat which means he will most likely not be allowed to even leave the country.  Trading Miller for a 2nd and a defensively irresponsible Right Winger who has entitlement issues is NOT an asset.  it is a throw in; like buy X amount of gas get a free glizzy thrown in.

 

Sorry mate, we won't agree on this at all.  You kinda made the case as to why Miller is so valuable but failed to make the case as to why Boeser would return more or how Kravtsov is an asset worth coveting.

[Alflives]

8 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

I think 2023 playoff bubble team, contending by 2025.

 

If you wanna be smug that's cool.  People hate the truth and they don't like reality.  They like to believe Boeser alone will get them the 2nd overall or that magically our depleted and non existent prospect pool will all magically turn in to quality role players and Miller et all will all take uber team friendly deals and everyone born in BC is coming back to play here.

 

But that aint factual, realistic or gonna happen.  The truth is we are not competing next year, possibly the year after.  We're in a division with McJesus and the Kings.  Anaheim is WAY ahead of us in terms of their own rebuild as well.  The Knights will be like the Sharks in that they roll us based on their size and back end skill.  Then there is the Phlegms.  That's JUST our division.  

 

Trading Miller in hopes of recouping a solid and quality return for a player of his calibre with his cap hit (with or without retention) is our best path towards actual long term contention.  The alternative is we do what the Canucks do every single decade in that we stockpile a few good players, acquire a smattering or prospects/picks then trade it all to compete two years before we're ready and wonder what went wrong.  It's a model we've stuck to since inception and we have exactly as many cups in that amount of time to show for it as the Leafs.

 

I want more.  I will suffer another year or two for more.  We deserve it.

I agree and want us to build over these next two years a team that (when it matures) will be a consistent winner.  

But JR said not step back.  The plan is to make changes, but to continue to improve and compete now.  Not too sure if that can work, but it’s the publicly stated direction.  So we won’t be trading for young players (picks) who will be developing into their ceilings in two years.  We will be trading for guys who are at their ceilings, but are young enough to have several years there.  So guys like Marino, Kapanen.  

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, ABNuck said:

It's looking like that NYR 2nd to WPG might just get bumped to a first (it's 5-1 NY right now in the 3rd)...what do you think WarHippy...ask for Kravtsov, that 2022 second, a third in 2023 and a prospect for Miller? Then add the 2023 third to Boeser to get NJ's 2nd O/A? I'd hate to have to add our 15 O/A to Boeser to get that 2nd, but with Jiricek as the prize...maybe?

JR just said publicly no steps back.  Why would he say that’s our direction and then trade Miller for futures?  

[Warhippy]

Just now, ABNuck said:

It's looking like that NYR 2nd to WPG might just get bumped to a first (it's 5-1 NY right now in the 3rd)...what do you think WarHippy...ask for Kravtsov, that 2022 second, a third in 2023 and a prospect for Miller? Then add the 2023 third to Boeser to get NJ's 2nd O/A? I'd hate to have to add our 15 O/A to Boeser to get that 2nd, but with Jiricek as the prize...maybe?

I stand by my initial statement.  If we're drafting 2nd we're draftign Slafkovsky or trading back for Nemec