[PGT] Buffalo Sabres at Vancouver Canucks | Mar. 20, 2022

[theochar]

Good teams coast through the season and ramp it up playoff time.

Our boys have been playing "playoff" hockey just to get back into the race but they are physically and mentally done.

When you get shut out at home by Tory Stecher and Sam Gagnier in a must win thats all you need to know.

Miller is playing like a man possessed but he is looking for the big contract, I don't think he cares whether its here or somewhere else.

If Gretzky can be traded, anyone can. Don't overestimate the players loyalty and get suckered in to all the badge kissing.

Hopefully management will be ruthless in their decisions and the guys that are left put on their big boy pants and play like they care

[theochar]

2 hours ago, Timråfan said:

I try to explain…

We need veterans, yes, but more in the mold of Sutter, Beagle and maybe Schenn.

 

Not the top dog of the team as Miller became and in that position break up the whole team culture since the Sedins. It was great the first year when Petey wasn’t threatened as no.1.

Petey and Hughes fits the Sedins culture perfectly

If the meaning of breaking up that culture aquiring Miller, Horvat should have been stripped of captain directly as one bit.

Hogz and Podz should have started under Cull and learnt the NA ropes.

Roussel should still be around as the mental case and so

 

Management needs to decide wich road they will follow.

 

You might understand what I’m going at but It’s a bit hard in english.

I hope you get my drift as I only point in the right direction and the changes I’m talking about might be the wrong.

But Miller and Petey isn’t a match.

And that is a pity when we’re talking about the two best forwards we got.

I choose Petey of the two based on age and when our other young players will reach their best years, around 25-30 years.

Miller is to old then.

 

 

The culture of the club after the cup run in 2011 was a country/golf club.

Back to back Presidents Trophies but we were feasting on Flames, Oilers, Wild 8 times a year who were awful.

We scored 8 goals in 7 games in the final, Luongo had 2 shut outs (mind you he sh!t the bed in Boston).

Love the Sedins, but how did they play after getting their 7mil contracts?

I'm sorry if I sound like Don Cherry but that "culture" does not win cups and it has plagued this team for decades

Edited March 21, 2022 by theochar
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[Kevin Biestra]

7 hours ago, Vancan2021 said:

 Marleau, Thornton, Chara, Perry, Spezza, and a few more are nowhere near what they were, however still a huge part of there teams and contributing in other areas, including adding a point or two. Do you believe Miller has the same balls at there age to be even close to where they are at in 7-8 years? Making that money on top of it? Those names I mentioned are etched in your brains as warriors, legends, etc. Can you seriously honestly say you even knew who JT Miller was prior to a couple years ago? I am thinking Miller is similar to Bertuzzi. (Hockey maturity, not playing style), Had tons of talent and promise early then finally peaked in their 20's, then as fast as you peaked, you fell just as quick. Don't get me wrong luv, luv Miller, just as I did Bert, but anymore then 4 years is disaster. Lets base this retool or whatever it is for a 3-4 year window. No 34+ year olds making 9+ million a year.

 

I can't say for sure that Miller wouldn't be.  But we have seen non-HOF grade but rather just very good players turn it up in the 11th hour of their careers and be very impactful.  Ray Ferraro had one of his best years ever at 36.  Mike Foligno was still a modern day Marleau type contributor at 35, same with Doug Smail, Dave Poulin, Murray Craven, Brian Skurdland, Joel Otto, Brent Sutter, Kelly Kisio.  Cliff Ronning at 38.  Scott Mellanby at 40.  That's going back a while but as of yet I don't have reasons to claim Miller won't be able to do that.

 

Mats Zuccarello is currently having the best year of his career at 34.  He's another player who is just very good like the ones I named above.

 

 

Edited March 21, 2022 by Kevin Biestra

[philtbc829]

What great timing to go on a 3 game losing streak ..ffs…I believe their slim playoffs chances are officially buried now … let’s see what Rutherford and co. Will do ..

 

[Dazzle]

4 hours ago, buddhahoodlum said:

Umm? Ok? I'm not gay but if you think it will help the team...

I commend him for being a true fan by taking one for the team!

[Dazzle]

 

I agree that the Benning regime was a failure and I agree that the Canucks have some very good core players right now.

 

But I want to push back on the commonly made claim that Benning did not inherit much of value.

 

When Benning took over he had Markstrom, Horvat, Edler, and Tanev, all of whom had at least 7 good years ahead of them (or more) and, over the full Benning regime were arguable the 4 most valuable players on the team. He also had the #6 overall pick, which he wasted. And, in the Kesler trade, he got another first round pick, and he a good mid-career player in Bonino (along with Sbisa).

 

He also had a quite a bit of cap room and an owner who was willing to spend to the cap, and he had extra draft pick or two that he traded away.

 

He actually started out with a lot of assets that could have been the basis of solid rebuild. Instead he consistently went after the "win now" philosophy and just made a lot of bad decisions, especially UFAs. 

Funny how you completely ignored the state of the prospect pool. After several years of poor drafting under Gillis, did you really think this was not going to have a factor for the team?
 

Kesler was a devalued version of what he was worth, and so Benning was obviously handicapped with the return. Why else were fans "booing" him for limiting the NTC to just two teams, with one of them being Anaheim?

 

Markstrom, Horvat, etc, were decent pieces, but let's not forget: The Luongo/Schneider debacle. We traded a 1st for Horvat (good trade in hindsight, but incredibly risky). But ok, Edler was declining, and so were the Sedins. Tanev, Markstrom, and Horvat were a start.

 

Yes, Benning should've rebuilt the team, as you said, but that hilariously means that the team was NOT prepared well by his previous GM. Why rebuild if the team was set up for success?

 

Moreover, the prospect pool - if you look down the lineups of those teams, the fact that we got little/poor returns for the overrated/overplayed depth players speaks volumes about how poorly constructed the Canucks teams were.

 

The reality was that the Canucks were a leaky faucet, and one particular GM - Gillis - particularly ignored the state of it. It's problematic when:

Edler - was not drafted from Gillis, but rather inherited from the Nonis period. Are you freaking kidding me? Gillis couldn't draft a single depth defenseman that wasn't named Hutton? There was no succession plan for him, nor the Sedins.

 

So much argument was made about Gillis "winning", therefore he didn't have lottery picks, but he did have lottery picks - two of them (Horvat, through trade, the only asset that he had in Schneider, along with Hodgson). The remainder of his high picks were thrown away through poor drafting. Yikes.

 

Edited March 21, 2022 by Dazzle

[Coconuts]

7 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Yeah our defense is garbage to be honest.  I think I want a mulligan on that OEL deal.  Other than Hughes and Schenn I’d look at moving everyone else.  Unfortunately nobody is going to take OEL.  He doesn’t play Boudreau type of hockey.  I could see Dermott playing ahead of him to be honest.  At least he has some wheels.

 

I’d look to move Myers tomorrow and get that $6 million off the books.  That would allow us to free up a lot of cap space and make that OEL contract more manageable.

Nobody's taking OEL, I could maaaaaybe see someone taking Myers. If not this season, than at next year's deadline. 

 

Problem with that is we've no immediate replacement. But maybe that's not really as big an issue as I think it is, we've lots of time to figure that out. 

[Ghostsof1915]

7 hours ago, Rindiculous said:

We've been rebuilding the past decade.  When you have the likes of our core, you're not gonna be able to bottom out.  It's just not possible or ethical.

Gillis handed out NMC clauses like candy. Making it very difficult to move players. Both GM's failed. Benning could draft NHL players, but the question is now, how good are these NHL players? The mix is completely wrong for this team. We've got a fantastic goalie. An uber skilled, slightly undersized defenseman. Miller is the only consistent threat forward. Bo is a talented, but streaky centre. There's going to be no quick fixes here. Be prepared for another 2-3 years of more pain.

[mikeyman109]

9 hours ago, Devron said:

The inconsistency guys should be the guys we are moving tomorrow. 

 

9 hours ago, HKSR said:

There you go... a true vet sees it.  There's some guys in that room that are simply not pulling their weight.  Miller talked about that earlier this season too.

this from a two time Stanley cup champ. i hope PA and JR are paying attention.

[mikeyman109]

9 hours ago, Jester13 said:

K, let's trade those handful, not our best players, please.

The problem is some of those inconsistent are our best players. Boeser Petey start the list,

[mikeyman109]

9 hours ago, KFan said:

I've been saying this forever. I like Bo as a player when he's working, but I always think a guy with a dynamic personality has a better chance of motivating his team. Also, on the ice, Miller is by far the better player. It wouldn't bother me at all to see Bo traded. There would be good return and who knows, he may do a lot better elsewhere. 

I dont  disagree that Miller is the better player but if you trade Bo, a league leading face off man you need another center to do what he does.

Do we have that in the system? No

Is that something we can develop quickly enough to replace him with this core? No

 Do we trade Bo? I would say NO.

Center is not our issue with what we currently have unless you are on the dump Petey train. what we need is some consistency from our forwards. Hoglander and Podkolzin to keep developing and for one of our forwards, I am guessing Boeser to bring back a D man in return. Bruce has gotten all he can out of this group and they probably are a playoff team if he started the year with them.

 

[Attila Umbrus]

This teams young guns have some terrible confidence issues…they love to win and enjoy doing it but it’s been proven over and over now that when the going gets tough some of our young stars just disappear. Their confidence seems so shaky. It’s all in their heads, they are great athletes but I think some just can’t handle the mental load of things right now.
 

It takes time to become confident like JT Miller or Luke Schenn… I love Horvat for what he does on the ice, but he does not lead this team. I want JT as captain, no messing around. I can even see a world where Bo just takes a step back so he can just focus on the game more. JT Miller has been this teams true captain for a while now. If he stays he’s gotta be the captain. Any player who gets pissy or doesn’t like the move means they just want soft cuddles and praise…not reality. Bo just coddles his players…JT will not. I sure hope we keep him or this vanilla style leadership is just gonna keep going.

[mikeyman109]

8 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Have we ever had the 1st overall pick?  Ever?

once we traded it to get both Sedins at 2 and 3 so Atlanta wouldnt take one of them

[Alflives]

2 minutes ago, mikeyman109 said:

once we traded it to get both Sedins at 2 and 3 so Atlanta wouldnt take one of them

Isn't that connected to the assets Keenan got from trading Linden too?  

The most hated trade we ever made (Linden out) sure set us up for our best club ever.

This is exactly why we need to move Miller.  We won't like it, but it's best to take us forward to a much better future.

[IBatch]

5 hours ago, JamesB said:

I agree that the Benning regime was a failure and I agree that the Canucks have some very good core players right now.

 

But I want to push back on the commonly made claim that Benning did not inherit much of value.

 

When Benning took over he had Markstrom, Horvat, Edler, and Tanev, all of whom had at least 7 good years ahead of them (or more) and, over the full Benning regime were arguable the 4 most valuable players on the team. He also had the #6 overall pick, which he wasted. And, in the Kesler trade, he got another first round pick, and he a good mid-career player in Bonino (along with Sbisa).

 

He also had a quite a bit of cap room and an owner who was willing to spend to the cap, and he had extra draft pick or two that he traded away.

 

He actually started out with a lot of assets that could have been the basis of solid rebuild. Instead he consistently went after the "win now" philosophy and just made a lot of bad decisions, especially UFAs. 

You just answered your own question.   We inherited all of Horvat - a 18 year old, Markstrom, a formerly high touted goalie prospect who wasn't even close to NHL ready (took him a long time didn't it), and Hutton in the pool.   That's it.    Six years .. and that was all MG managed and both from trades.    Well except Hutton.    The rest of our crew either was whiny and wanted out (and providing two teams that he'd go to) or had zero interest (yet) in leaving to provide the required assets to start a rebuild.  

 

To me a team under the old expansion rules had an equal shake.  Back then guaranteed a top draft pick, and some lots of sucking to get it going.  CLB and ATL ... how long did it take?   Seriously really Markstrom?   Horvat?  Compare that to Healtey,  Rick Nash, Kovulchuk etc ... not the same.   JB didn't have much choice and did an admirable job of  re-tooling given the circumstances at the start of his tenure.  Linden massively supported the vets and didn't want them to not be given a chance either.   The time to pull the plug and start a rebuild - and this is revisionist, would have been before the Sedins were given one more deal and build around Kesler.   He didn't want to stay ... so... if you think that Horvat and Hutton and Markstrom is a good start that's simply not true.   Better off being an expansion team under the old rules really - and that took a decade to gain some relevance in most cases.  

 

Not that JB did a great job either because he did not.    And not that MG didn't do his job either - we were a top team that he added too.   Made mistakes though - all that cap savings with all those clauses were was given to Booth and Ballard (the only first he traded) ... yikes.   In todays money those cap hits are 6ish each.    Not an easy job these guys have.     

 

Quins teams set up the next two cores...MG teams set up zero.   Put us right back to 1970, that's a cost we have to pay for six division titles and two presidents trophies - and been right up there with Detroit and SJ from 2000-2014.    We were always going to pay the piper, too bad we didn't bottom out as much with JB...Allvin won't have an easy time in this market creating a re-set either, although it's probably what we need.   Said when JB arrived of things went really well it would be parts of the next core and the one behind that when we'd contend again.    Look how long it takes teams to get there these days.   JB mistakes go back to MG mistakes.   Between the two we will be very fortunate to end up a top team anytime soon.   32 teams ... each final appearance gets longer between ... 

[Mrwipeout]

doesnt look like much good of the leftovers on the market.....if a trade is coming is gonna be another pick-trade and then another 4 years to rebuild again. what core do we want to keep and why?

[mikeyman109]

18 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Isn't that connected to the assets Keenan got from trading Linden too?  

The most hated trade we ever made (Linden out) sure set us up for our best club ever.

This is exactly why we need to move Miller.  We won't like it, but it's best to take us forward to a much better future.

yes we traded Bryan McCabe to Chicago to get pick 3 i believe so we had one and three and traded 1 to Atlanta with the assurances they would take Stefan and and not one of the Sedins

 Mccabe came from the Linden trade that brought Bertuzzi as well I believe

[IBatch]

1 minute ago, Mrwipeout said:

doesnt look like much good of the leftovers on the market.....if a trade is coming is gonna be another pick-trade and then another 4 years to rebuild again. what core do we want to keep and why?

The patient move would be to take the best deal available as a starting point and go from there.    I'm not sure aside from COL teams are done so the market is closing fast.    COL didn't want to pay what Florida did to acquire Claude - so unless they'd rather have Miller, feel that our guys aren't getting enough traction.   At least Allvin can talk to all the agents starting in the off season - that will help with our medium and long term plans.   Maybe Brock signs 5 x 5 or something.   Or maybe he doesn't and we take him to arbitration.    Tough to say.    Would be surprised if any of our big ticket guys get moved. 

[IBatch]

11 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Isn't that connected to the assets Keenan got from trading Linden too?  

The most hated trade we ever made (Linden out) sure set us up for our best club ever.

This is exactly why we need to move Miller.  We won't like it, but it's best to take us forward to a much better future.

Yes it did.   Doesn't mean any Miller trade will come close to that ... most certainly won't that's probably the biggest trade tree in NHL history.    Also got us Luongo (and i was stoked when that happened)....But what it will gain us at the very min is the cap savings on his current deal, and the cap savings on his next deal even more importantly.    It's a tank move for sure.   Maybe that's what the team needs i'm not sure.    Brock is a safer move if we want to use QHs and Demko's next year window. 

[mikeyman109]

The team looks spent playing at a  level that most would have to agree looked like it was not possible before Green was fired. I think  Bruce has gotten everything he could out of this lineup but they all look tired.

Bo, Garland, Boeser, Myers, OEL, all look spent

Demko needs a capable back up and Halak was not it. Spencer Martin played well enough to deserve a chance at that role. Demmer is our MVP this year though

I am not sold on Hogs and Pods despite many here who are huge backers. they have regressed through the season. Hopefully its just a learning curve thing. Our fourth line is good with Motte, Highmore and Lammiko. If we cant resign Motte i would look at someone from ABBY to move up. Chaisson is done after this year.

 

 One note on D is Myers has played well and if we can trade him and get some cap relief that might be a good thing. Ideally we would move OEL but i doubt there would be any takers on him due to the contract even if we gave him up for a 7 th round pick. one thing about him is in his own end he makes the lazy play every time. A swing of the stick, a dump of the puck rather than skating it out, he is beaten to the puck more times than any other D man. its amazing how many times i have said who was that D man that let his man go and it turns out to be OEL.I think he has value but really needs to be challenged to play better by this coaching group and this management team. maybe hes been playing hurt but he is always the spotlight on the bad play that turns into a goal against. Rathbone should be ready to move up next season. We can afford to move Myers if there is a taker.

One thing we do need up front is a little bit of nasty. Size and speed. Has Raffi Torres had a kid yet? Brent Seabrook is still looking for him under the bed.before he goes to sleep at night.