Time to face the reality

[spook007]

2 minutes ago, Timråfan said:

Nah, it’s not hateed. I just think Benning was dumb and over his head being a GM.

How can that be classed as hatred?

 

King Heffy often says thing I could claim is hatred but my comments on Benning… Man up I believe is the right say. 

Happy to hear it... don't won't you to get ill over a GM, who is long gone now

 

[Dazzle]

Just now, Timråfan said:

Regarding the Dahlen thingy… Who got it right afterwards? Me or you!?!

Please, enlight me how many prospects rising in ranks from Utica.

Don't kid yourself. Dahlen proved nothing until this year. He broke out, and it had nothing to do with the AHL coaching. In fact, he was still performing at the same level in his second tier league.

[DSVII]

Just now, Dazzle said:

Because we run the risk of losing value for Miller, especially if there's some injury. You see how the Blackhawks cashed in on Fleury, and they flipped him for a nice return. Given how we did this deadline, we are not showing that we can do the same thing.

You're leaving out some nuance here. It's not that simple. The Market price was too sky high for a Miller trade given what Hagel went for. And all the competing teams are cap crunched, this team isn't constructed right now to be able to take cap back in a trade, even for an overpayment on the other team's part. And whose fault was that?

 

I've seen arguments over the years on this bard where Benning should get a multi year grace period because of how Gillis cratered the prospect pool and left him with nothing. Extend a similar grace period to this management team to navigate the cap situation they inherited. 

 

The team right now is paying for Benning's moves to spend to the cap in multiple consecutive seasons with contracts you can't move easily. Again, what do you expect in three months? They're still tied up by the mistakes of the previous era. 

If we had traded Miller for a package of a 1st and prospect, I guarantee this board will be up in arms about how we were ripped off. You don't move someone of his caliber for less than your asking price. And the Hagel trade completely distorted the market. Both can be true. 

 

Sure, Miller's value is sky high, and it means jack all if no one is willing to pay. Don't sell him for the sake of selling him. 

 

Besides, you believe in this core right? This is more time to evaluate which part of the core you keep, or whether you want to trade any of them away. Miller can very well stay on.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[RU SERIOUS]

On 3/21/2022 at 12:25 PM, thrago said:

Not Impressed with this new Management group which is impressive cause it took years for me to be unimpressed with Benning.

I kinda like the "Alvin & the Girls" moves * so far........

[Fred65]

I'm begining to question this core frankly. Too many easey riders, followers rather that leaders, Beta personalities rather than Alpha. Many have great skills but if they're all Beta personalities the skills mean squat. Sure I like Demko and JT and likely Schenn but there ain't too many more. As Stan Smyl ( now there was a leader ) the character of this team needs a change. I'm glad we signed Richardson he's another leader as I recall. We need more believers, in your face and hard working players   IMHO.

[Timråfan]

11 minutes ago, Dazzle said:

Don't kid yourself. Dahlen proved nothing until this year. He broke out, and it had nothing to do with the AHL coaching. In fact, he was still performing at the same level in his second tier league.

Again you shift focus from Utica/Benning and talk about Dahlen.

 

Why are you inwilling to talk about Utica? 
Dahlen is gone since very long and Karlsson seems to be a better player so it was a very good trade for the Canucks.

So, back to how many prospects Utica managed to get into the roster?

[Fred65]

5 minutes ago, Timråfan said:

Again you shift focus from Utica/Benning and talk about Dahlen.

 

Why are you inwilling to talk about Utica? 
Dahlen is gone since very long and Karlsson seems to be a better player so it was a very good trade for the Canucks.

So, back to how many prospects Utica managed to get into the roster?

I'll make it easy for you, one, Demko. Who IMO falls under a different category as he had speciality coach. I don't believe any one can applaud the Utica development programm

[Dazzle]

24 minutes ago, Fred65 said:

I'll make it easy for you, one, Demko. Who IMO falls under a different category as he had speciality coach. I don't believe any one can applaud the Utica development programm

But my criticism about Timrafan was his total defense of Dahlen. At no point did he ever blame the player, and blamed everything on the Canucks, which doesn't seem right.

 

His argument about Utica is a smokescreen, which had nothing to do with Dahlen, and how his agent, JP Barry, acknowledged the talk about a trade, which Benning said was done because some players thought they deserved a spot. Dahlen contradicted himself by saying he didn't ask for a trade.

 

Someone lied, and Timrafan never addressed the contradictions.

Edited March 22, 2022 by Dazzle

[Fred65]

Two ddifferent arguments from my perspective. Dahlen IMO was a spoiled brat but Utica has failed in it's mandate to develp

[sxqhfeh]

From HF Poster:
 

I'm pretty invested in my hockey pool so I watch a ton of other teams, every day. The entertainment value of the Canucks compared to other teams is so far and away from being similar it's just sad.

Nashville isn't even a top contender but there skill, speed and most of all their tenacity is night and day. Their forwards crash and bang, they're crowd is a ruckus bunch, great music, great energy, leading the league in fights

Other teams fight, literally, scratch and claw to win games.

Watching other teams accumulate draft picks at will while we head into another draft without a 2nd round pick.


Pettersson puts the puck in the net after the whistle and just accepts a speed-bagging from Dylan Larkin. Bo and Boeser are too quiet and monotone. Hughes is small and weak. Ekman-larsson desperately trying to own up to his massive contract and failing. No size or toughness in the forward core whatsoever. No speed. No team tenacity. Horrible arena atmosphere, horrible music. AHL defenders, no prospects, struggling rookies in the NHL, in no Man's Land looking to draft 12th-16th, mediocre AHL squad, cap strapped, extremely tough decisions ahead. "Top young players" struggling and/or injured. Basically everything is negative in my eyes right now. This team is just a bunch of scrap pieces thrown together in hopes of lucking out into an 8th playoff seed only to get dusted immediately. This team isn't any good.

[Nucker 67]

Petey needs to put on 20 lbs and work on his skating. When he was drafted I was surprised VAN took him, but seeing him play, he was going to be amazing. He's looked anything but amazing this season. Too easy to play against. He's never been a point-a-game player in the NHL.

 

The only absolute keepers I see right now are:

 

Demko

Podkolzin

Hughes

Schenn

Dermott (tbd)

 

[shapo]

35 minutes ago, NUCKER67 said:

Petey needs to put on 20 lbs and work on his skating. When he was drafted I was surprised VAN took him, but seeing him play, he was going to be amazing. He's looked anything but amazing this season. Too easy to play against. He's never been a point-a-game player in the NHL.

 

The only absolute keepers I see right now are:

 

Demko

Podkolzin

Hughes

Schenn

Dermott (tbd)

 

Agree with you and maybe Richardson???, Lammikko, Garland and Hoglander, we are way too easy to play against, Petey gets knocked down repetitively and he is not built for playoff hockey. Boeser and Miller should be traded at seasons end, cant afford thier next contracts. Imagine if we could deal the whole 3 and what we could bring to the lineup.

[Nucker 67]

Petey's got 2 years left at $7.35, and at the time I thought, "It's too short a term, why doesn't Petey want to play here?!!"  But, in hindsight, it's a good thing his contract ends sooner rather than later. If he keeps up his current play, I can't see them giving him much of a raise, if they re-sign him. He's still got 2 years after this one, so we'll see if he improves. 

[Bure_of_94]

14 hours ago, Alflives said:

If we go 8 x 8 (so north of 60 million) Miller would sure be tempted to take that, considering those offers might not be there from other teams in the summer of 2023.  If he was a D man, perhaps as a 30 year old UFA he could get more than 60.  But in this flat cap era is any team going to pay 60+ million for a 30 year old who isn't on their team?  Which decent and on the rise teams would even have that cap room?  

A team like Detroit or Anaheim if their prospects improve again next year should be on their way up with about 20 million in cap space each in 2023.

[DefCon1]

On 3/21/2022 at 11:29 AM, Alflives said:

Totally agree.  Our owner is guiding the philosophy.  Not the player moves, but the philosophy of retool over proper rebuild.  And even the retool he won't allow to go deep enough.  Just bad news all around since our owner foolishly fired Gillis (our best GM ever) because Gillis said we needed to rebuild.  

I thought they did rebuild lol. The Sedins are gone, so is Kesler and Burrows and Luongo and Edler etc. We got top 5 picks multiple times and drafted Horvat,  Hughes  Pettersson  Boeser, Podkolzin, Hoglander, Rathbone etc. I dont know what you mean by rebuild?? What is your definition of rebuild? Also it will be really stupid to do a rebuild again on this roster because we already have a bunch of young guys in NHL and some prospects coming up and we need some shuffling and change of supporting cast while still drafting and getting picks. I would probably call that retooling versus just trading everyone that is part of the core

[luongianone]

22 hours ago, DS4quality said:

 Don't get me wrong I see the value in Jarnkrok,  but 2 2nds is steep. The reason I'd keep Motte is he has more value to the current team in a playoff push than a 4th rounder does right now. And the trade makes our terrible pk even worse. That's why I'd rather have Motte right now.  That being said I don't think we'll make the playoffs anymore. 

 

I agree that 2 2nds is steep, but players like Jarnkrok are harder to find than Motte. I did expect Motte to get more myself but it seems clear we were never offered more than that. I'd understand keeping Motte if we had a good chance at making the playoffs. The problem is we don't..making the playoffs even with Motte would've constituted as a miracle. I'm glad our management isn't relying on miracles. If this trade makes us worse and lose more games, so be it. I'd rather have that 4th rounder that maybe we can flip and pick up another Motte. Or draft a player that can be flipped. The shelf life of that pick providing us value is a lot longer than Motte's. Sucks to see him go but it's good business, plain and simple. The goal is to contend for a championship year in and year out. Not make the playoffs and hope.

[DSVII]

11 hours ago, DefCon1 said:

I thought they did rebuild lol. The Sedins are gone, so is Kesler and Burrows and Luongo and Edler etc. We got top 5 picks multiple times and drafted Horvat,  Hughes  Pettersson  Boeser, Podkolzin, Hoglander, Rathbone etc. I dont know what you mean by rebuild?? What is your definition of rebuild? Also it will be really stupid to do a rebuild again on this roster because we already have a bunch of young guys in NHL and some prospects coming up and we need some shuffling and change of supporting cast while still drafting and getting picks. I would probably call that retooling versus just trading everyone that is part of the core

We only had two top 5 picks (cursed lottery) and it was Juolevi and Petey.

 

Rebuild = bottoming out and accumulatiing of draft picks and prospects at a higher rate than league average (the default 7 picks each team gets every year)

 

Some fans are equating turnover with rebuild. Yes those guys are gone, you can stand pat, do nothing, acquire young talent by virtue of the seven picks the other 31 teams get award with. But are you building up your pool at a rate faster than the rest of the league? 

 

This team has rarely accumulated picks in the top 100 of the draft, consistently spent to the cap and acquired aging vets on a premium. Rebuilding teams don't do that. Look at Montreal's trade deadline where they acquired two 1sts. Have we ever had a draft where we had more than one 1st round save for 2014 when JB took over?

 

If that was a rebuild. It was the purgatory of rebuilds.

 

This team right now as is constructed is definitely at a weird point. It's got a solid young core, but weighed down by a lot of peripheral contracts. A rebuild would be awful, I'm leaning retool, but any retool is saddled with the OEL cap hit (8% of your current team cap) for the next 5 years which will be really limit on how much moves we can make around this core. Not an easy problem to solve. 

 

 

Edited March 23, 2022 by DSVII

[Nucklefuts]

On 3/22/2022 at 12:02 AM, thrago said:

Lol what players have been chased off the team? We constantly hold on to players way longer then we should, thats been this teams biggest problem for decades now.

Delusional

[Fred65]

On 3/23/2022 at 10:24 AM, DSVII said:

We only had two top 5 picks (cursed lottery) and it was Juolevi and Petey.

 

Rebuild = bottoming out and accumulatiing of draft picks and prospects at a higher rate than league average (the default 7 picks each team gets every year)

 

Some fans are equating turnover with rebuild. Yes those guys are gone, you can stand pat, do nothing, acquire young talent by virtue of the seven picks the other 31 teams get award with. But are you building up your pool at a rate faster than the rest of the league? 

 

This team has rarely accumulated picks in the top 100 of the draft, consistently spent to the cap and acquired aging vets on a premium. Rebuilding teams don't do that. Look at Montreal's trade deadline where they acquired two 1sts. Have we ever had a draft where we had more than one 1st round save for 2014 when JB took over?

 

If that was a rebuild. It was the purgatory of rebuilds.

 

This team right now as is constructed is definitely at a weird point. It's got a solid young core, but weighed down by a lot of peripheral contracts. A rebuild would be awful, I'm leaning retool, but any retool is saddled with the OEL cap hit (8% of your current team cap) for the next 5 years which will be really limit on how much moves we can make around this core. Not an easy problem to solve. 

 

 

Ericksson, Mk2, in a couple of years tiem. Not outstanding currently but worse is to come