[Rumour] Devils open to trading 2022 1st-round pick

[Warhippy]

1 minute ago, NucknAsia said:

Great post

 

I came at it from another angle, the simply fact that since 2015 the Devils have picked top 6 a total of 5 times and have made the playoffs once since 2013 and lost in the first round.

 

They have been losing perennially and at some point you have to start competing for a cup.

 

There seems to be a view on these boards that you collect high draft picks year after year for 5-8 years and then magically you will win a cup...that's not how it works and it ignores the fact sports is about winning not collecting draft picks like a video game. Fans want to see wins, playoffs and cups, and so do management and owners since playoffs is where you make money.

 

Losing and losing money for a decade is not fun for fans, management or owners.

Oh dear.

 

Ok.  From 2006-2022 look at the drafting and draft positions of the following.

 

Toronto

Edmonton

Buffalo

New York Islanders

Tampa Bay

Colorado

Carolina

New Jersey

Arizona

Florida

New York

Columbus

 

https://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/index.html

 

For LOOooooong periods of time these were the teams that drafted the top 10.  Look at what had to happen to some of those teams for them to actually start having success.  NJ is already almost a decade in to drafting in the top 5 on an every other year basis (barring the penalized year) and a questionable trade they made.  They NEED to make the next step.  Most of the teams that did take that next step on that list that didn't draft a superstar like Makar/McKinnon, McDavid/Draisatl, Matthews, Hedman/Kucherov/Stamkos in essence either signed or traded their way in to contention after drafting highly for so long.  

 

NJ could take that next step right away if they wanted with their assets and cap space.  But also, the age of former eastern powerhouses like Washington/Pittsburgh/Boston who are now aging out and cap starpped.

[DrJockitch]

5 minutes ago, NucknAsia said:

Great post

 

I came at it from another angle, the simply fact that since 2015 the Devils have picked top 6 a total of 5 times and have made the playoffs once since 2013 and lost in the first round.

 

They have been losing perennially and at some point you have to start competing for a cup.

 

There seems to be a view on these boards that you collect high draft picks year after year for 5-8 years and then magically you will win a cup...that's not how it works and it ignores the fact sports is about winning not collecting draft picks like a video game. Fans want to see wins, playoffs and cups, and so do management and owners since playoffs is where you make money.

 

Losing and losing money for a decade is not fun for fans, management or owners.

I think NJ is great example of a team that is where they should be looking at adding vets and getting out of the basement. 
they have a bevy of young talent, it is time to build up around them. 
Benning didn’t wait for a buildup of young talent and started adding vets way early, same mistake the Leafs made but they were further along in the process than us. 
I quite like the rumours that we are looking at moving up to 2 or so as I feel we should still be in the acquiring blue chip prospects part of the rebuild, could probably been out of it by now had Aqua listened to Linden instead of Benning.  

[Gawdzukes]

15 minutes ago, iinatcc said:

Neither would I. Which is why the 39 so pages here is pretty pointless if we are talking about Canucks making this deal 

 

11 minutes ago, rekker said:

Ya, it's a long shot. Jersey is a lot closer to competing than their record indicates. It's why they signed Hamilton like they did. Actually, JT is a real good fit there. 

Yeah it's a long shot for sure. I wouldn't do it if I was Jersey ... but we are bored, on a message board and in the offseason. What is the harm in speculating? Teams like Detroit, Buffalo, Ottawa, and New Jersey, are all poised to go from collecting draft picks to being competitive in the East. There were zero teams that were close to making the playoffs and didn't in the East. It just depends on who is making the decisions and when they decide to make a push. So many driving factors behind these decisions that we aren't privy to. It shouldn't really be an outlandish shock if any one of these teams decided it's time, or if there are some surprises next year. That's why the NHL is entertaining.

 

Unfortunately the Devils won the lotto or else this option would have far more legs.

[NucknAsia]

3 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

Oh dear.

 

Ok.  From 2006-2022 look at the drafting and draft positions of the following.

 

Toronto

Edmonton

Buffalo

New York Islanders

Tampa Bay

Colorado

Carolina

New Jersey

Arizona

Florida

New York

Columbus

 

https://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/index.html

 

For LOOooooong periods of time these were the teams that drafted the top 10.  Look at what had to happen to some of those teams for them to actually start having success.  NJ is already almost a decade in to drafting in the top 5 on an every other year basis (barring the penalized year) and a questionable trade they made.  They NEED to make the next step.  Most of the teams that did take that next step on that list that didn't draft a superstar like Makar/McKinnon, McDavid/Draisatl, Matthews, Hedman/Kucherov/Stamkos in essence either signed or traded their way in to contention after drafting highly for so long.  

 

NJ could take that next step right away if they wanted with their assets and cap space.  But also, the age of former eastern powerhouses like Washington/Pittsburgh/Boston who are now aging out and cap starpped.

Yep, at some point you have to start winning! I often think some of our fans find the enjoyment of drafting high more exciting! haha

[NucknAsia]

8 minutes ago, DrJockitch said:

I think NJ is great example of a team that is where they should be looking at adding vets and getting out of the basement. 
they have a bevy of young talent, it is time to build up around them. 
Benning didn’t wait for a buildup of young talent and started adding vets way early, same mistake the Leafs made but they were further along in the process than us. 
I quite like the rumours that we are looking at moving up to 2 or so as I feel we should still be in the acquiring blue chip prospects part of the rebuild, could probably been out of it by now had Aqua listened to Linden instead of Benning.  

Agreed. NJ has their core PLUS more! They actually have too much young talent, so much so, some players are now redundant. That's an admirable position to be in, but you also need to start winning.

 

You go only with youth, well we've seen what happens . Edmonton bust model. A mix is always needed in the NHL, from a maturity and leadership perspective, to a guidance and mental preparation / teaching perspective. Alot of people don't realize this. Miller has a ton of value, NJ needs a player like him. Is it worth the 2nd and more for them, that's the debate. But to argue that they wouldn't need or desperately want what a player like Miller brings, I would vehemently argue that's incorrect.

 

I also agree that it seems (assuming the rumour is true and its related to Miller), that JR and Alvin recognize that sometimes you need to sell high if a player doesn't fit the long term trajectory of the team.

 

It sucks, I love Miller, he embodies what I think we all want all our Canucks to be, heart, soul, compete, never give up....he's my favorite player....but....he can also bring a boatload back that would set up Petey and Quinn and Demko to bring a cup to Vancouver, or at least have a real shot. And that's what we all want.

Edited June 7, 2022 by NucknAsia

[DrJockitch]

2 minutes ago, NucknAsia said:

Yep, at some point you have to start winning! I often think some of our fans find the enjoyment of drafting high more exciting! haha

I am not sure that cluster of teams tells you anything. 
Tb, Florida, Carolina, Toronto, Edmonton, Colorado, NYR we’re all playoff teams and have been some of the best teams in the league. NYI almost fits this category other than for a bad year with a lot of extenuating circumstances. 
Buffalo, NJ and Columbus are the only bad teams on that list. Says to me that dropping to the bottom helps you more than hurts. 

[MeanSeanBean]

1 hour ago, wai_lai416 said:

lol where's the sources that saids Devils have asked about Miller?? maybe in the past like last season where they would have miller for 2.5 seasons.. there was nothing about Devils knocking on the doors about Miller this season and all the latest rumors recently are all from "insider" and cdc speculating and dreaming no actual source that the devils have asked about miller.

 

if the canucks have the 2nd overall pick right now and missed the playoffs by 37 points.. you think JR is going to trade the 2nd overall pick for a 30 year old miller? Miller's going to provide much more veteran leadership than Severson/Hamilton?? you trade away the 2nd overall for leadership?? might as well sign someone for veteran leadership in a 3rd/4th line role for 0 asset? 

 

you can give new jersey all the top 6 forwards in the world.. they still ain't going to make the playoffs giving up 300+ goals that's almost 4 goals a game.. adding Miller.. adding your so call veteran leadership.. is he going to help them give up less goals? coz he's pretty terrible himselfs in defensive efforts outside of faceoffs. sure New Jersey needs a top 6.. but scoring is not their issues.. they scored as much goals as the canucks with Jack hughes injured half the season.. if hughes was healthy i think it's fair to say New jersey easily outscores us.. If everyone is drooling over Slafovsky and thinks he'll have an impact right away reach 1k points etc etc.. then they already have their top 6 right there that is young cost controls for years.. so they would trade that away for a guy that is unlikely to re-sign just for his veteran leadership?

 

Miller is a player teams that are on the verge of contending or already contending would target.. not a team that missed the playoffs by almost 20 wins..

I pretty much disagree with everything you said. Out of curiosity, which team do you think Miller is a good fit for, or are you on team re-sign?

[NucknAsia]

2 minutes ago, DrJockitch said:

I am not sure that cluster of teams tells you anything. 
Tb, Florida, Carolina, Toronto, Edmonton, Colorado, NYR we’re all playoff teams and have been some of the best teams in the league. NYI almost fits this category other than for a bad year with a lot of extenuating circumstances. 
Buffalo, NJ and Columbus are the only bad teams on that list. Says to me that dropping to the bottom helps you more than hurts. 

 not making the playoffs for ten years (aka NJ) hurts dude - owners and fans do not enjoy it nor find it entertaining...

 

not really sure what there is to debate on that.

[Gawdzukes]

26 minutes ago, NucknAsia said:

I would argue NJ is very much in 'win now' mode. Whether they are willing to give up the 2nd for Miller is a fair debate, but win now is not imho. Note they have made the playoffs only once since 2013 and lost in the first round. That's a decade bud.

 

Since 2013 this is where they have drafted (would have drafted if they didn't trade a couple of first rounders).

 

2013 - had traded their first rounder so picked second round. Ended up 20th so would have picked 11th overall in the 30 team league

2014 - had traded their pick but ended up 22nd in a 30 team league - 9th overall 

2015 - 6th overall

2016 -  12th overall

2017 - 1st overall 

2018 -  17th overall

2019 - 1st overall

2020 - 7th overall

2021 - 4th overall

2021 - 2nd overall

 

As one can see they've been mired is suckage for a decade, and had alot of high picks.

 

Professional sports teams want to make money. They want to not go bankrupt because they never win and fans stop showing up, and that's even more of an issue in the USA where they don't just show up to hockey because they love it as we do.

 

Since 2015 they've had 5 top 6 picks - that is an example of floundering. The goal of professional sports teams is to entertain, to win, not collect high picks like a video game and endlessly keep getting high picks for the excitement of a new shiny toy. 

 

I think Vancouver fans (and I'm not saying you are suggesting this) tend to have such a view on sports. Let's keep getting high picks and eventually we'll have a McDavid, Crosby, Mckinnon, Makar, Draisatl, Ovechkin type players all on one team and then we'll have a dynasty! lol...really sometimes I get that feeling from our fans....

 

Point is, NJ has to start winning and making the playoffs because you need fans to get excited and keep coming. Fans are not excited by teams getting 1-6th overall endlessly and never winning a cup....Miller matters to them IMHO...they've got a stable full of youth...then need someone to help them learn to win. And players like Miller help do that.

Exactly. At some point you just want to win and do your best to make it happen. Some people forget about the pressure of putting out a winner and think just tanking for 2 or 3 years is no big deal. If all teams operated like that we'd have 6 good teams pushing for the Cup and 26 teams all tanking hard. Players like Miller, Subban, Malkin, Strome, Maata, Shultz, Perron, C.Miller, Zadorov, Butcher, would all get pushed out of the league in favor of young players that suck, since nobody wants to win unless the stars are all aligned. 

 

Good post!

[DrJockitch]

17 minutes ago, NucknAsia said:

 not making the playoffs for ten years (aka NJ) hurts dude - owners and fans do not enjoy it nor find it entertaining...

 

not really sure what there is to debate on that.

Which is the decision Benning made too early and we are still a non-playoff team but with the added benefit of being capped out with no high-end prospects coming. 
As said above NJ is at that point that they should be trying to recover and build around an established young core.  That is what they are doing, adding Hamilton last year was exactly them trying to do that.   
Buffalo is a special case of repeated gross incompetence at all levels and Columbus has small market issues and have actually been surprisingly competitive prior to this year. 
Still, the examples given, 8/11 teams were in the playoffs this year or last 7/11 this year in a league where 50% make the playoffs. Seems to be hitting high in the draft is a determinant of success and a big one, just not the only one. 

[Jester13]

Miller, Dickinson, and Silovs for 2ndOA and Zacha.

 

Who says no to that cap space, a legit 3rd line centre, and 2ndOA?

 

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, Jester13 said:

Miller, Dickinson, and Silovs for 2ndOA and Zacha.

 

Who says no to that cap space, a legit 3rd line centre, and 2ndOA?

 

Love this for us, but Jersey would likely ask for Dipietro.  

[shiznak]

1 hour ago, Warhippy said:

4.  Miller aging out and being almost 30 is an issue, but NJ is not beholden to him for a longer contract.  He's an almost PERFECT stop gap for 1-3 years and a 2 year extension of $9+ million fits NJ's timeline perfectly.  They can afford him.  he insulates the kids.  They have arguably one of the better prospect pools in the league and are one of the youngest teams with the most easily fixed issues with goaltending, in their bottom 6 and 3-4 and 5-6 on the back end.  They've a ton of cap space and more than enough assets due to their 3rd lottery win in 6 years to actually start moving out of Buffalo territory.  Which is to say stockpiling picks/assets and seeing them fail to succeed.

 

Bottom line is your opinion is that Miller might not want to go to NJ or NJ might not want or need him.  But the numbers clearly indicate, hypothetical or not what NJ would stand to gain by adding Miller even short term.  We did it with Sundin, Samuellsson  and a half dozen other players from 2008-2011 and it only helped Burrows, Kesler, the Sedins etc.  teams do moves like Miller ALL the time.  This caveat on this is there has not been a 100 point player available for under $5.5 million capable of playing all 3 forward positions in modern history in the league.  With retention, he could be available for less than $3 million.  Would this be worth the 2nd overall?  It's as up in the air as my hypothetical numbers or your opinion.  But the argument I have laid out shows that Miller would absolutely benefit the devils for even ONE year and could possibly be had for a single or multiple year extension afterwards while still cashing in hard.

 

Hell sir, I would go so far as to say that with 1 trade and two or three smart signings.  The Devils could be closer to the playoffs than the Canucks are if they get Miller and a goaltender worth the name.  So, is he worth the 2nd overall pick?  Maybe not.  Would he help the Devils make the playoffs while only costing them a pick/prospect and not spending to the hilt in free agency?  Absolutely.

Here’s the thing that people don’t understand. There’s a difference between wanting him and needing him. Sure, they probably could use his service, to help them improve their record and help mentor the youth. But do they really want him, when they have other areas they need to fulfill to improve their team? 

 

Do you believe Miller is actually going to sign a short term deal with the Devils, just to push them into a bubble playoff team? This is his last opportunity to get a big payday and have stability for the rest of his life. He and his agent is going to ask for at least 8 years, similar to what Zibanejad got.

 

This is nothing like when we signed Samuellsson and Sundin. Both players we at the tail-end of their careers, while Miller is at his peak prime years. By the time the Devils are truly ready to compete, Miller will be at the tail-end of career, and probably anchoring the team in cap space.

 

Edited June 7, 2022 by shiznak

[Jester13]

3 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Love this for us, but Jersey would likely ask for Dipietro.  

Then I'm even more sold. Mikey is below Silovs on the depth chart.

[DrJockitch]

2 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Love this for us, but Jersey would likely ask for Dipietro.  

There is no shrug emoji here but seems like perfect place. 
Silovs/DiPietro neither have much value or would be great losses. 
MD did got better as year went on.  Apparently playing no games for a year can be hard on your game…who knew. 

[mll]

Just now, Alflives said:

Love this for us, but Jersey would likely ask for Dipietro.  

Why?   They already have 2 young goalies for the AHL - Akira Schmid and Nico Daws. 

[Gawdzukes]

4 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Love this for us, but Jersey would likely ask for Dipietro.  

No problem. They can have him. He's a long shot anyway.

[NucknAsia]

5 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Love this for us, but Jersey would likely ask for Dipietro.  

throw him in! he's not part of the future really....he's got the potential to be a good goalie but its not guaranteed by any stretch.

Personally I would want more back for Miller than just 2nd overall and Zacha but I also don't know how good the kids are in that range so maybe it would be enough if the pick is a 'sure thing'

[NucknAsia]

3 minutes ago, shiznak said:

Here’s the thing that people don’t understand. There’s a difference between wanting him and needing him. Sure, they probably could use his service, to help them improve their record and help mentor the youth. But do they really want him, when they have other areas they need to fulfill to improve their team? 

 

Do you believe Miller is actually going to sign a short term deal with the Devils, just to push them into a bubble playoff team?

This is his last opportunity to get a big payday and have stability for the rest of his life. He and his agent is going to ask for at least 8 years, similar to what Zibanejad got.

 

This is nothing like when we signed Samuellsson and Sundin. Both players we at the tail-end of their careers, while Miller is at his peak prime years. By the time the Devils are truly ready to compete, Miller will be at the tail-end of career, and probably anchoring the team in cap space.

 

NJ has a heck of a team dude. Add in Miller and a goalie, Say Fluery...and you're in the playoffs imho.

[Warhippy]

1 minute ago, shiznak said:

Here’s the thing that people don’t understand. There’s a difference between wanting him and needing him. Sure, they probably could use his service, to help them improve their record and help mentor the youth. But do they really want him, when they have other areas they need to fulfill to improve their team? 

 

Do you believe Miller is actually going to sign a short term deal with the Devils, just to push them into a bubble playoff team?

This is his last opportunity to get a big payday and have stability for the rest of his life. He and his agent is going to ask for at least 8 years, similar to what Zibanejad got.

 

This is nothing like when we signed Samuellsson and Sundin. Both players we at the tail-end of their careers, while Miller is at his peak prime years. By the time the Devils are truly ready to compete, Miller will be at the tail-end of career, and probably anchoring the team in cap space.

 

We signed Sammy at age 32.

 

You can believe what you want.  I can believe what i want.

 

Do they want him?  Who wouldn't.

Do they need him?  I would say yes.  every team NEEDS vets like that to win.

 

Would he re-sign with them?  I'd say having almost $57 million in total cap space over the next 2 years says they can afford him.

 

Bubble team?  If he was to sign a short term extension he'd have full say and be 31-32 before he signed his next contract while making bank on this one.  Allowing him to still sign a 5-7 year contract afterwards.  Would he make them a bubble team?  yes.  Would they only get better with time?  Hell yes.  

 

Your opinion, my opinion.  Miller is almost exactly what a team with cap space and an average age of 22.75 years needs to get over the hump and start competing.  This is the perfect time for New Jersey to make those moves.  Pittsburgh has 2 years MAYBE with Letang/Crosby/Malkin.  Washington is so tight to the cap that after Ovechkin is done in 2-5 years they're already on their way out.  Boston?  Bergeron is gone.  No prospects.  no assets.  The East is losing 3 of their most consistent competitors within the next 2-3 years which will create a vacuum a team like Jersey will in fact fill.  Tampa is in tight to the cap now, as is Florida.  New York is going to see the same issues in 3 years once they need to re-sign their youth.

 

This is honestly the best possible time for Jersey to actually trade for, sign/extend players like Miller with their window and the current timeline of their ELCs and secondary contracts coupled with consistent cap increases.  

 

Again, your opinion/my opinion.