HHOF Class of 2022: Daniel Alfredsson, Roberto Luongo, Henrik Sedin, Daniel Sedin, Riikka Sallinen, Herb Carnegie

[JM_]

10 minutes ago, IBatch said:

I simply think you missed the point entirely.   Prime Gretzky in todays game with no redline and obstruction would absolutely kill it.   How do you think Bure would do?   Well "prime Bure" managed back to back 100 point seasons with us, at the same time a beaten up almost done Gretzky was still winning Art Ross trophies.   

I think there was some yap a while ago about bringing the old rule back to try to lower concussions but it never got anywhere. 

 

Bure would have been a monster today. 

[Baratheon]

9 minutes ago, IBatch said:

I simply think you missed the point entirely.   Prime Gretzky in todays game with no redline and obstruction would absolutely kill it.   How do you think Bure would do?   Well "prime Bure" managed back to back 100 point seasons with us, at the same time a beaten up almost done Gretzky was still winning Art Ross trophies.   

There's some truth in what both of you are saying.  If Gretz played today he would also have the benefit of modern training, coaching, technology etc.  His greatness would be undeniable regardless of the era he played in.

 

Now obviously his stats would not be anything like they were in the 80's.  It would be silly to say that the game has not evolved.  Anybody can watch a game from the 80's and pick out about a third of the team who would be benched by modern standards.  Whether it be a lack of backchecking, poor positioning or even just being too slow in general.  

 

Agree with you about Gretz and Bure but DrJockitch is also correct.  Different times different games.

[IBatch]

49 minutes ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

I think Phil Esposito is close to that category as well.  He became the first player to ever score 100 points...and did it by scoring 126 points.  Then soon thereafter became the first player to score 150.

Yes often forget about him ... he was the guy kids wanted to be playing street hockey when i was small.  Or Lafluer.   Before Gretzky came along and then that's who we wanted to be (although for me it was Bobby Clarke first lol - or if in net Bernie Parent).      Good point.   Potvin also if Orr wasn't around ... who was second or third in scoring behind those guys?    Robinson or Park i suppose.    Its pretty incredible what Gretzky did though ... next up we're guys like Bossy, Stastny, Hawerchuk and sometimes Kurri... 70-90 points behind him lol.   

[IBatch]

5 hours ago, DownUndaCanuck said:

I honestly never thought the twins or Luongo would make the HOF because they never won a Cup, it seemed to be a pre-requisite a while ago but now they're much more lenient I suppose, and rightly so. They had fantastic careers, not many players play their entire career over 1000 games with the same team anymore and they've had very unique careers. I remember watching them bust every Canuck record one and at a time and thinking that no-one will touch their franchise records. 

 

Demko has a good chance to erase some of Luongo's records but that one winning season will be hard to touch, whereas I don't see any forward in the near future coming close to the Sedins' scoring records. Hughes may end up beating a lot of Edler's records but I don't see Pettersson or anyone coming close to the Sedins, and we may not see that quality for generations (until we pick top-3 again).

If EP plays 17 years with us, he's got a chance anyways.   The Sedins weren't built for the pre-lockout game, but in the end it was very good for them as well.   Suffering like that and pushing through it, gave them thicker skin.   The game changed too.   Guys like Ludwig and Hatcher in Dallas didn't take long to go away, but before that they were extremely important to have on any team with aspirations to win a cup.    Lindros ... well he'd have an absolute heyday in todays game, as would Jagr and Mario my god would he be amazing.   For the younger generations, i suggest you watch some highlights on all 3 of those guys.   They played with guys on their backs, hooking and holding ... and still did it.     Not every HHOF class is made the same.  This one is ours and as a fan i'm stoked.    But i'm also aware that the bar has gone down significantly from where it used to be as well.    Joe Thornton is one of the last guys that could manage both eras.   As far as forwards go anyways.   I have zero illusions that EP and QHs would already be in the infirmary.   Same goes for a lot of other guys playing todays game.   McDavid possibly too.   Crosby had to deal with the remnants of that era and ended up in the infirmary as well.   If guys like Lindros and Bure get their careers cut short ,,, what do you think would happen to guys like QHs, Fox, etc ... who knows.   I suppose if we want to go way back, Wayne wasn't expected to survive a year or two either.   Difference was, back then, the entire team would back you up AND you had a couple big brothers around just to keep things honest. 

 

Funny how Myers was the guy to hammer Keith.   Wasn't even aware of the history.   Keith would have been absolutely murdered for doing that pre-lockout.  

 

Edit: FYI ... EP's games played even in this era isn't great and covid did screw with some of it.   But as far as games played he's miles ahead of where the Sedins were.   And will add this - if you look at the last 25 or so games from last season, when he said he was finally 100%, and pro-rate it for an entire year ... 45/95 points is that pace.   Can he do it?  Not sure.   Fitness and weight training need to be his staple.   Bure.   When he came to the league he was about as built as one can expect for a guy his size.   Hope EP commits to that the same way Bure did.  Bambi memes ... they come up for a reason.  

Edited June 29, 2022 by IBatch

[Kevin Biestra]

49 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Yes often forget about him ... he was the guy kids wanted to be playing street hockey when i was small.  Or Lafluer.   Before Gretzky came along and then that's who we wanted to be (although for me it was Bobby Clarke first lol - or if in net Bernie Parent).      Good point.   Potvin also if Orr wasn't around ... who was second or third in scoring behind those guys?    Robinson or Park i suppose.    Its pretty incredible what Gretzky did though ... next up we're guys like Bossy, Stastny, Hawerchuk and sometimes Kurri... 70-90 points behind him lol.   

 

Yeah Denis Savard was the other perennial 120ish point guy and Dionne and Trottier were still delivering.  Then good old Kent Nilsson and Dennis Maruk with their one off seasons.

 

Yeah pre-Coffey it was Orr >> Potvin >> Park and Robinson, and I guess Salming and Lapointe and maybe the now forgotten Ron Greschner.

Edited June 29, 2022 by Kevin Biestra

[IBatch]

7 minutes ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

Yeah Denis Savard was the other perennial 120ish point guy and Dionne was still delivering.  Then good old Kent Nilsson and Dennis Maruk with their one off seasons.

 

Yeah pre-Coffey it was Orr >> Potvin >> Park and Robinson, and I guess Salming and Lapointe and maybe the now forgotten Ron Greschner.

Magic Man.   For sure some incredible athletes.     To me you just named 3 of the best defenseman all-time.   Orr, Borque, Coffey,  Robinson would all be in my personal top six all-time team.   One off's are tough.   Why i'm not sure Nichols deserve's the HHOF.   It also goes to show just how amazing Gretzky was ... i've wrote about this before because it's in Gretzky's book.   Bernie went and asked the owner if he should purchase a house after been the new Kurri and some!   Was a great player before for the Kings over a PPG player ... getting a little older ..: the owner said sure - buy a house we don't have any plans to trade you....then he did and he was traded.   Owners sucked back then lol. 

Edited June 29, 2022 by IBatch

[Kevin Biestra]

1 minute ago, IBatch said:

Magic Man.   For sure some incredible athletes.     To me you just named 3 of the best defenseman all-time.   Orr, Borque, Coffey,  Robinson would all be in my personal top six all-time team. 

 

Yeah I would be torn between Robinson and Potvin, and then MacInnis is pretty close to them.  I just tend to abstain from serious discussions about Pilote or Harvey given how little I actually know about them.  Orr, Bourque and Coffey would be my obvious 1-2-3.

Edited June 29, 2022 by Kevin Biestra

[IBatch]

7 minutes ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

Yeah I would be torn between Robinson and Potvin, and then MacInnis is pretty close to them.  I just tend to abstain from serious discussions about Pilote or Harvey given how little I actually know about them.  Orr, Bourque and Coffey would be my obvious 1-2-3.

 Mine too.  Coffey is still the only player i've ever watched just glide and gain speed.    Just an incredible skater.    With all the tools of the best forwards in any era.   Borque was more complete.   And Orr was just on an entirely different level.   Was too young to remember him play but sure heard a lot about him from my older pals.   PK time ... just give the puck to Orr and let him skate around for two minutes until it's killed playing keep away.  

 

Edit:  Going to both plug Lidstrom

and also make it real.   I've watched all of his career.  And also watched the era before him.    He was a good D-man.   No doubt.   But i'd have a hard time putting him in the top six. All i can say is i'm glad others got to see what greatness looks like.   Neidermayer and Pronger ... to me Pronger had the highest peak.   And Al Mac was better then all 3.   But also a level down from Orr, Coffey, Potvin, Robinson.    Gonchar and Rafalski...later Phanuef ... not exactly steep competition was it? 

Edited June 29, 2022 by IBatch

[Baratheon]

5 minutes ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

Yeah I would be torn between Robinson and Potvin, and then MacInnis is pretty close to them.  I just tend to abstain from serious discussions about Pilote or Harvey given how little I actually know about them.  Orr, Bourque and Coffey would be my obvious 1-2-3.

Give me Robinson if you're building a team long term.  I'll take Potvin if I'm loading up for one playoff run or one "competitive window".

[Kevin Biestra]

11 minutes ago, Baratheon said:

Give me Robinson if you're building a team long term.  I'll take Potvin if I'm loading up for one playoff run or one "competitive window".

 

Interesting.  Robinson played 20 years of which I would say 14 were his prime or close to it.  Potvin played 15 years and I would say all 15 were his prime or close to it and he retired like Bourque pretty near the top (51 points and 10th for the Norris in Potvin's last year).

 

I remember Robinson on the Kings when Gretzky was there.  Man that team had some veteran leadership with those guys, Taylor and Tonelli, Steve Kasper and even Barry Beck for some games.

 

Barry Beck...that was a guy looking like he might have been working his way toward the Hall of Fame before injuries set in.  All of his first three years he was a top six defenseman in the NHL.  Not on his team, in the league.

 

 

Edited June 29, 2022 by Kevin Biestra

[DrJockitch]

11 minutes ago, IBatch said:

 Mine too.  Coffey is still the only player i've ever watched just glide and gain speed.    Just an incredible skater.    With all the tools of the best forwards in any era.   Borque was more complete.   And Orr was just on an entirely different level.   Was too young to remember him play but sure heard a lot about him from my older pals.   PK time ... just give the puck to Orr and let him skate around for two minutes until it's killed playing keep away.  

 

Edit:  Going to both plug Lidstrom

and also make it real.   I've watched all of his career.  And also watched the era before him.    He was a good D-man.   No doubt.   But i'd have a hard time putting him in the top six. All i can say is i'm glad others got to see what greatness looks like.   Neidermayer and Pronger ... to me Pronger had the highest peak.   And Al Mac was better then all 3.   But also a level down from Orr, Coffey, Potvin, Robinson.    Gonchar and Rafalski...later Phanuef ... not exactly steep competition was it? 

Lidstrom is funny because he didn’t have a really flashy style or feature to his game. He did everything well but there wasn’t blinding speed or an extreme nasty edge. 

What he did was just kill plays.  When he was on the ice the opposition offence died. His stick was always there, he was always in perfect position, he just killed offence. On top of that he was a solid player on the other end. 
He was kind of like the Sedins. Cerebral, not flashy and really needed to watch him to see all the little details to his game. 
Personally I think he was best D man in history of game, or at least in the eras I have watched, because he was so good at everything for so long and so consistently. Many players had better years than peak Lidstrom but it is very debatable if any had better careers. 

Edited June 29, 2022 by DrJockitch

[IBatch]

6 minutes ago, Baratheon said:

Give me Robinson if you're building a team long term.  I'll take Potvin if I'm loading up for one playoff run or one "competitive window".

Potvin could have played at 18 and been just fine.   Back then draft was 20.   Having played 19 consecutive playoff series also shortened his career.   When he retired, he led the league in all categories for a defenseman.   His career was shortened a little because his body was just done.   As a side note - when asked, "which player did you fear the most" to Gretzky ... and well he played against some scary guys ... really scary guys including Lindros and Scott Stevens who could kill you with a hit or a play... it was Potvin that gave him the cold sweats.   Why?  Either getting creamed in a play or losing the puck to him and having him go and score a goal.  

[Kevin Biestra]

6 minutes ago, DrJockitch said:

Lidstrom is funny because he didn’t have a really flashy style or feature to his game. He did everything well but there wasn’t blinding speed or an extreme nasty edge. 

What he did was just kill plays.  When he was on the ice the opposition offence died. His stick was always there, he was always in perfect position, he just killed offence. Onto- of that he was a solid player on the other end. 
He was kind of like the Sedins. Cerebral, not flashy and really needed to watch him to see all the little details to his game. 
Personally I think he was best D man in history of game, or at least in the eras I have watched, because he was so good at everything for so long and so consistently. Many players had better years than peak Lidstrom but it is very debatable if any had better careers. 

 

Yeah he was a great defenseman no doubt.  Kind of like a Rod Langway with 1000 points.  But I still have him below Coffey and Bourque if I'm putting together a team.  I think of him more in the Chelios and Leetch category.

Edited June 29, 2022 by Kevin Biestra

[IBatch]

3 minutes ago, DrJockitch said:

Lidstrom is funny because he didn’t have a really flashy style or feature to his game. He did everything well but there wasn’t blinding speed or an extreme nasty edge. 

What he did was just kill plays.  When he was on the ice the opposition offence died. His stick was always there, he was always in perfect position, he just killed offence. Onto- of that he was a solid player on the other end. 
He was kind of like the Sedins. Cerebral, not flashy and really needed to watch him to see all the little details to his game. 
Personally I think he was best D man in history of game, or at least in the eras I have watched, because he was so good at everything for so long and so consistently. Many players had better years than peak Lidstrom but it is very debatable if any had better careers. 

I'm glad you got to see him play.   He was very good no doubt.   I'm going to bet your 40 or younger.    I don't know anyone that would give him the title my age or close to it.    Wasn't even Detoits number one until Konstantinov was injured.   This is one debate - that bugs me a lot.   I'm glad you guys who feel this way got to see him - but he wasn't even considered a top D man in the league until a lot of older guys retired.    The competition went by the way side.   He was amazing yes - but i wouldn't have him ahead of Al Mac and id have to think awfully hard before Pronger as well.   Of those guys only one was the same age.   Coffey was second in Hart voting and won his last Norris his 14th season.   When he was the same age as Lidstrom what was he doing (early 20's)...same as Potvin, same as Orr and Borque.   A heck of a lot more.  Chelios, Leetch, Al Mac, Blake even ... won trophies that he couldn't win.   But i am happy you got to see him play. 

Edited June 29, 2022 by IBatch

[DrJockitch]

Just now, IBatch said:

I'm glad you got to see him play.   He was very good no doubt.   I'm going to bet your 40 or younger.   

50 but haven’t lived in Canada my whole life. 

[Kevin Biestra]

2 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Potvin could have played at 18 and been just fine.   Back then draft was 20.   Having played 19 consecutive playoff series also shortened his career.   When he retired, he led the league in all categories for a defenseman.   His career was shortened a little because his body was just done.   As a side note - when asked, "which player did you fear the most" to Gretzky ... and well he played against some scary guys ... really scary guys including Lindros and Scott Stevens who could kill you with a hit or a play... it was Potvin that gave him the cold sweats.   Why?  Either getting creamed in a play or losing the puck to him and having him go and score a goal.  

 

Yeah Potvin was Linden and then Coffey / Bourque were the Sedins.  Or Potvin was Smyl and Coffey / Bourque were Linden.  Or the Brodeur -> McLean -> Luongo lineage.

 

Once your career record gets broken people forget you were once the greatest of all time pretty quickly.

[Baratheon]

5 minutes ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

Interesting.  Robinson played 20 years of which I would say 14 were his prime or close to it.  Potvin played 15 years and I would say all 15 were his prime or close to it and he retired like Bourque pretty near the top (51 points and 10th for the Norris in Potvin's last year).

 

I remember Robinson on the Kings when Gretzky was there.  Man that team had some veteran leadership with those guys, Taylor and Tonelli, Steve Kasper and even Barry Beck for some games.

 

Barry Beck...that was a guy looking like he might have been working his way toward the Hall of Fame before injuries set in.  All of his first five years he was a top six defenseman in the NHL.  Not on his team, in the league.

 

 

You can't discount what might be considered Robinsons' "non-prime" years though!  His time in LA is largely my basis for that opinion.  My earliest memories of following the league are the 92-93 season (after Robinson had retired).  I can still remember my family raving about how good he was even up to the end.

 

You can hardly go wrong either way but that's how I'd do it!  Give me Potvin for that pocket of time when he put up 20+ points in the playoffs every year vs Robinson for 20 years.

[Kevin Biestra]

Just now, Baratheon said:

You can't discount what might be considered Robinsons' "non-prime" years though!  His time in LA is largely my basis for that opinion.  My earliest memories of following the league are the 92-93 season (after Robinson had retired).  I can still remember my family raving about how good he was even up to the end.

 

You can hardly go wrong either way but that's how I'd do it!  Give me Potvin for that pocket of time when he put up 20+ points in the playoffs every year vs Robinson for 20 years.

 

I think of Robinson in his later years kind of like Trottier with the Penguins.  Or Linden's second run with the Canucks or the second half of Dave Babych's career.  Still very effective but just in a different way.

[NewbieCanuckFan]

1 hour ago, IBatch said:

Yes often forget about him ... he was the guy kids wanted to be playing street hockey when i was small.  Or Lafluer.   Before Gretzky came along and then that's who we wanted to be (although for me it was Bobby Clarke first lol - or if in net Bernie Parent).      Good point.   Potvin also if Orr wasn't around ... who was second or third in scoring behind those guys?    Robinson or Park i suppose.    Its pretty incredible what Gretzky did though ... next up we're guys like Bossy, Stastny, Hawerchuk and sometimes Kurri... 70-90 points behind him lol.   

Nah, it's his little brother Tony that SOMETIMES gets overlooked (imho). People remember the Paul Henderson goals in that classic 72 Canada-Russia series but SOME forget it was "Tony O" that saved Canada's bacon when the Russians had Dryden's number.  Tony's style was so odd, they couldn't figure him out.  That's not even mentioning all his other NHL accomplishments (including cheating  but it ain't cheating if you don't get caught ).  He did all sorts of stuff back in the day (like putting webbing in his groin area to prevent 'five hole' goals, etc.,)

Edited June 29, 2022 by NewbieCanuckFan

[Baratheon]

5 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Potvin could have played at 18 and been just fine.   Back then draft was 20.   Having played 19 consecutive playoff series also shortened his career.   When he retired, he led the league in all categories for a defenseman.   His career was shortened a little because his body was just done.   As a side note - when asked, "which player did you fear the most" to Gretzky ... and well he played against some scary guys ... really scary guys including Lindros and Scott Stevens who could kill you with a hit or a play... it was Potvin that gave him the cold sweats.   Why?  Either getting creamed in a play or losing the puck to him and having him go and score a goal.  

Potvin is my favorite player between the two but I cannot shake the memories of family conversations as a child.  I just remember everyone talking about how Robinson was good since the dawn of time lol.