Big time disappointment this off-season so far?

[Fred65]

49 minutes ago, iceman64 said:

Are you serious? Let's get started, first your 50k pages like you say are proof there are a LOT of stupid people...

Thankfully some very smart people too, that would say, if JB did such and awful job and the result would be thus, we'd be dead last for the next 5 years with zero star players.

 Yet, JR and AL seem to think otherwise and I'd take their word over a lot of people who think they have a clue about hockey. All they do is parrot the bush league media here in Vancouver, which is nothing new btw. 

I bet you were one of the people who slammed the JTM deal right? We got sooooo slaughtered on that!!! We're screwed for years because of it and won't get a plugged nickel in return when he's traded right? 

 And if we're that close to a playoff team and then in the same breath, you say we suck.. which is it? Playoff teams don't suck, they're in the bottom 10 with no hope anytime soon. 

 That's not us, unless management starts to listen to the advice of fans, then we're F'd totally. 

 Sorry but with the players on the team last year, we were playoff bound, Green screwed the pooch but BB in his place earlier, we were in the playoffs.

 Care to go back and actually count every one of the long terms that were on the books in 2012 with no trade clause, make a list and actually list it for everyone to see. 

 And then point out where you would have circumvented contract law and changed us into a Stanley cup contender just like that...

 In case you didn't notice even Luongo was still on the books until last season, and the fan base screamed when a cpl of broken older Dmen went and signed term with other teams instead of being happy about it...

 And those same people would slam JB for it and did, how's that for stupid? 

Since when do you sign guys on the wrong side of 30 for long term? Even JB didn't do that bad... But if we went along with popular opinion here, we'd have 2 often injured Dmen on the team for the next 3 years at least. 

 Blah...

Talking of stupid you miss the crucial point. Vcr was all in on the Stanley Cup, all in!! The team was built for the SC, it didn't happen by accident. Apart from bringing in toughness required for the cup run they brought in Erhoff and Hamhuis. They were not thinking of the 2012 draft they were thinking of the parade down Geogia. Regretfully we didn't have sufficient D depth for the final. Lost Hamhuis through injury, Erhoff suffered  seperated shoulder and Rome was handed  an unprcedented 4 game suspension by Mr Jacobs. And don't get me started on Kelly Sutherland, he was that bad the NHL actually moved him from being a Westcoast official to moving him to the Eastcoast! That run was unlike previous runs to the SC, luck had nothing to do with it. Further on stupid, after all the success the Canucks enjoyed ( and me ! ) after 6 years Aquaman had Gillis fired after 6 year.

Edited July 15, 2022 by Fred65

[DrJockitch]

48 minutes ago, iceman64 said:

Are you serious? Let's get started, first your 50k pages like you say are proof there are a LOT of stupid people...

Thankfully some very smart people too, that would say, if JB did such and awful job and the result would be thus, we'd be dead last for the next 5 years with zero star players.

 Yet, JR and AL seem to think otherwise and I'd take their word over a lot of people who think they have a clue about hockey. All they do is parrot the bush league media here in Vancouver, which is nothing new btw. 

I bet you were one of the people who slammed the JTM deal right? We got sooooo slaughtered on that!!! We're screwed for years because of it and won't get a plugged nickel in return when he's traded right? 

 And if we're that close to a playoff team and then in the same breath, you say we suck.. which is it? Playoff teams don't suck, they're in the bottom 10 with no hope anytime soon. 

 That's not us, unless management starts to listen to the advice of fans, then we're F'd totally. 

 Sorry but with the players on the team last year, we were playoff bound, Green screwed the pooch but BB in his place earlier, we were in the playoffs.

 Care to go back and actually count every one of the long terms that were on the books in 2012 with no trade clause, make a list and actually list it for everyone to see. 

 And then point out where you would have circumvented contract law and changed us into a Stanley cup contender just like that...

 In case you didn't notice even Luongo was still on the books until last season, and the fan base screamed when a cpl of broken older Dmen went and signed term with other teams instead of being happy about it...

 And those same people would slam JB for it and did, how's that for stupid? 

Since when do you sign guys on the wrong side of 30 for long term? Even JB didn't do that bad... But if we went along with popular opinion here, we'd have 2 often injured Dmen on the team for the next 3 years at least. 

 Blah...

JB was a terrible GM. That’s my opinion, really don’t mind that you don’t agree. Follow him wherever he goes should he ever get another job in the league.

‘So much cognitive dissonance I don’t even know where to start. 
‘JB drafted a few good players and after 8 years I would hope so.

‘Trading for JTM, signing every 4th liver for $3M dollars and then taking on OELs contract and giving away a first rounder to correct your previous mistakes, these are all reflections of a GM without patience for a rebuild trying to save his job.  We had the third most expensive d in the league with bottom third of the league results another measure of his success that you are so ringingly endorsing. 
‘When JB came in we were on the express elevator to the bottom of the league and that is where we should have stayed at that time but he took every short cut he could and the results of that is a non-playoff, capped out team with empty cupboards or as you call it “success”

We we’re not a playoff team, assuming BB would of had us as a playoff team if here all year is a foolish logical fallacy that ignores the massive changes JB made to try to save his job at the cost of our future. 
We have only seen incremental changes because it is hard to move underperforming players who are overpriced and the current group is displaying something Benning never had, patience. It is going to take a few years to get out of Benning’s mess, or as you see it our championship window. 
‘If you can’t see what difference between a team that may be able to compete for the playoffs and a team truly competing for the cup then I can not help you understand things further. 
 

Edited July 15, 2022 by DrJockitch

[Baggins]

On 7/15/2022 at 8:43 AM, Alflives said:

Best GM by results on ice was Gillis.  Worst GM by results on ice was Benning.  That’s the facts. 

Did the two GM's come in to the same situation? Gillis had a whack of qulity players in their prime or coming into their prime, while Benning got a team with one player under 27 worth keeping and players on the decline aging out. Not to mention no prospects. Insert any two names you want into those scenarios and the one that inherited what Gillis did will have the better W/L record over a six year period. Ask any GM out there which he'd rather inherit - a team with good young players along with high quality veterans in their prime, or an declining aging team with no prospects - I wonder which he'd choose for his starting point. 

 

It's just a dumb statement Alf. 

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, Baggins said:

Did the two GM's come in to the same situation? Gillis had a whack of qulity players in their prime or coming into their prime, while Benning got a team with one player under 27 worth keeping and players on the decline aging out. Not to mention no prospects. Insert any two names you want into those scenarios and the one that inherited what Gillis did will have the better W/L record over a six year period. Ask any GM out there which he'd rather inherit - a team with good young players along with high quality veterans in their prime, or an declining aging team with no prospects - I wonder which he'd choose for his starting point. 

 

It's just a dumb statement Alf. 

Actually it’s fact.  Gillis created our most successful era.  Benning created our worst.  

[48MPHSlapShot]

On 7/15/2022 at 8:43 AM, Alflives said:

Best GM by results on ice was Gillis.  Worst GM by results on ice was Benning.  That’s the facts. 

Actually, the best GM by results on ice was Stan Smyl.

[Baggins]

1 hour ago, Alflives said:

Actually it’s fact.  Gillis created our most successful era.  Benning created our worst.  

Hahahahahahaha....

 

Gillis inherited his best players, utterly failed at drafting, and left Benning nothing. 

[Alflives]

Just now, Baggins said:

Hahahahahahaha....

 

Gillis inherited his best players, utterly failed at drafting, and left Benning nothing. 

That’s strawman.  Gillis built our most successful team.  That’s fact.  Benning built an era of losing and left a horrible mess. 

The new management is finding it a lot harder than expected to clean up the Benning disaster.  8 wasted years of Benning + 5 years to clean up after him.  That’s a generation of young fans lost.  

[Baggins]

3 minutes ago, Alflives said:

That’s strawman.  Gillis built our most successful team.  That’s fact.  Benning built an era of losing and left a horrible mess. 

The new management is finding it a lot harder than expected to clean up the Benning disaster.  8 wasted years of Benning + 5 years to clean up after him.  That’s a generation of young fans lost.  

Strawman is comparing win/loss records between two GM's while completely ignoring what they started with. Gillis had to do very little, and that what he did - very little, to turn it into a contender. Benning had to replace an entire team without any prospects to start with. Gee, I wonder who will have a better win/loss record. Duh!

[GB5]

38 minutes ago, Baggins said:

Hahahahahahaha....

 

Gillis inherited his best players, utterly failed at drafting, and left Benning nothing. 

Agreed  the Gillis core all came from Burke.

[Nuck1991]

Player Name, myers, poolman, pearson, dickinson were bad signings by JB

 

[Bure_Pavel]

Pretty weak offseason so far from new management. Have freed up zero cap space to improve team by taking advantage of other teams cap crunches. Instead of using what little cap space we had to improve defense and add cheap depth players, adding a fringe second line winger. JT Miller trade was not completed and now a lot of the suitors seem to have found other replacement players. Still time to correct the ship but training camp will come up fast. At the moment RD is still in really rough shape, if Myers goes down with injury I think playoffs could be off the table or force a panic trade.    

[Canuckfanforlife82]

54 minutes ago, Bure_Pavel said:

Pretty weak offseason so far from new management. Have freed up zero cap space to improve team by taking advantage of other teams cap crunches. Instead of using what little cap space we had to improve defense and add cheap depth players, adding a fringe second line winger. JT Miller trade was not completed and now a lot of the suitors seem to have found other replacement players. Still time to correct the ship but training camp will come up fast. At the moment RD is still in really rough shape, if Myers goes down with injury I think playoffs could be off the table or force a panic trade.    

How many times have we heard “there’s still time.”? Always seems to be the go to with disappointment at the conclusion. We will see.

Edited July 18, 2022 by Canuckfanforlife82

[Bobby James]

1 hour ago, Bure_Pavel said:

Pretty weak offseason so far from new management. Have freed up zero cap space to improve team by taking advantage of other teams cap crunches. Instead of using what little cap space we had to improve defense and add cheap depth players, adding a fringe second line winger. JT Miller trade was not completed and now a lot of the suitors seem to have found other replacement players. Still time to correct the ship but training camp will come up fast. At the moment RD is still in really rough shape, if Myers goes down with injury I think playoffs could be off the table or force a panic trade.    

I'm sure it would have been ideal if they could have pulled off a JT Miller trade and brought back a great package that included a top 4 young RD. I still want them to try and pull that off. But I'm surprised people are so down on the off season moves so far. We significantly improved our forward group in terms of talent, speed, depth and toughness.  

 

In terms of creating cap space, that is very hard to do without giving up picks/prospects and I believe management already said they don't want to that. We aren't a rebuilding team either and are up against the cap, so we can't be like Arizona or Chicago and take back tons of useless cap since we are trying to make the playoffs going forward (we should have been doing that before when we were under Benning/Linden). 

 

So unless you are of the group that wants to dump Meyers for a 3rd round pick or Pearson for a 4th/5th (which in my mind are both bad deals that make us worst, unless something is guaranteed to be coming back in through free agency or a trade) there isn't a ton of cap dumping options. I don't think anyone wants Jason Dickinson for free without getting an incentive. 

 

Could the offseason moves have been better? Of course, almost always could be. However, I think they've done a decent job so far with the cap situation they inherited and I have a feeling the next month or two will be focused on moving out a top 6 forward of ours for something to help on D/add to the prospect pool. Kadri signing should help spur teams who miss out on him to look at other options.

 

They should let other teams talk to JT Miller about an extension though. I think that would help close a trade if Miller and a new team can roughly agree to a deal. 

Edited July 18, 2022 by Bobby James

[Fred65]

On 7/16/2022 at 8:37 PM, GB5 said:

Agreed  the Gillis core all came from Burke.

He did how ever bring in Markstrom, Erhoff, Tanev, Lapierre, Alberts, Higgins, Horvat, Rome,Hamhuis Hprdichuk Samuelsson to name a few, The draft is essential but it's not the only method of improving ypur roster. The idea iis to WIN and he did that in spades

Edited July 18, 2022 by Fred65

[Canuckfanforlife82]

11 minutes ago, Bobby James said:

I'm sure it would have been ideal if they could have pulled off a JT Miller trade and brought back a great package that included a top 4 young RD. I still want them to try and pull that off. But I'm surprised people are so down on the off season moves so far. We significantly improved our forward group in terms of talent, speed, depth and toughness.  

 

In terms of creating cap space, that is very hard to do without giving up picks/prospects and I believe management already said they don't want to that. We aren't a rebuilding team either and are up against the cap, so we can't be like Arizona or Chicago and take back tons of useless cap since we are trying to make the playoffs going forward (we should have been doing that before when we were under Benning/Linden). 

 

So unless you are of the group that wants to dump Meyers for a 3rd round pick or Pearson for a 4th/5th (which in my mind are both bad deals that make us worst, unless something is guaranteed to be coming back in through free agency or a trade) there isn't a ton of cap dumping options. I don't think anyone wants Jason Dickinson for free without getting an incentive. 

 

Could the offseason moves have been better? Of course, almost always could be. However, I think they've done a decent job so far with the cap situation they inherited and I have a feeling the next month or two will be focused on moving out a top 6 forward of ours for something to help on D/add to the prospect pool. Kadri signing should help spur teams who miss out on him to look at other options.

 

They should let other teams talk to JT Miller about an extension though. I think that would help close a trade if Miller and a new team can roughly agree to a deal. 

It’s never been about the forward group. It’s the defense. I think everyone knows to take that next step it must be improved. The right side is so weak. It’s weird to not have seen one player added by now when it was a problem last year.

Edited July 18, 2022 by Canuckfanforlife82

[Bobby James]

7 minutes ago, Canuckfanforlife82 said:

It’s never been about the forward group. It’s the defense. I think everyone knows to take that next step it must be improved. The right side is so weak. It’s weird to not have seen one player added by now when it was a problem last year.

I mean the forward group wasn't that amazing last year either, so I think the improvements there (especially around speed) are going to be helpful. 

 

But yes I agree our weakest part of this team is the right side on D. I absolutely think we should improve it also and think they will try. Marino was who I was hopeful for and that trade with NJ wasn't much so I'm surprised the Canucks couldn't pay the price. 

[Bure_Pavel]

18 minutes ago, Bobby James said:

I'm sure it would have been ideal if they could have pulled off a JT Miller trade and brought back a great package that included a top 4 young RD. I still want them to try and pull that off. But I'm surprised people are so down on the off season moves so far. We significantly improved our forward group in terms of talent, speed, depth and toughness.  

 

In terms of creating cap space, that is very hard to do without giving up picks/prospects and I believe management already said they don't want to that. We aren't a rebuilding team either and are up against the cap, so we can't be like Arizona or Chicago and take back tons of useless cap since we are trying to make the playoffs going forward (we should have been doing that before when we were under Benning/Linden). 

 

So unless you are of the group that wants to dump Meyers for a 3rd round pick or Pearson for a 4th/5th (which in my mind are both bad deals that make us worst, unless something is guaranteed to be coming back in through free agency or a trade) there isn't a ton of cap dumping options. I don't think anyone wants Jason Dickinson for free without getting an incentive. 

 

Could the offseason moves have been better? Of course, almost always could be. However, I think they've done a decent job so far with the cap situation they inherited and I have a feeling the next month or two will be focused on moving out a top 6 forward of ours for something to help on D/add to the prospect pool. Kadri signing should help spur teams who miss out on him to look at other options.

 

They should let other teams talk to JT Miller about an extension though. I think that would help close a trade if Miller and a new team can roughly agree to a deal. 

They should have used what limited cap space they had to improve defense or 3rd line center and used the rest to sign team friendly deals like Lazar (great signing). Not completing a Miller trade before free agency is tough because they would have had a better idea of the holes remaining after they got back some assets. Over paying for free agents in the cap era is what held back the previous regime. If you are going to pay premium prices in FA a winger in an already crowded top 6 is not our biggest need. I get that we needed to improve our PK bad but I think there were cheaper options out there.   

[Bure_Pavel]

9 minutes ago, Bobby James said:

I mean the forward group wasn't that amazing last year either, so I think the improvements there (especially around speed) are going to be helpful. 

 

But yes I agree our weakest part of this team is the right side on D. I absolutely think we should improve it also and think they will try. Marino was who I was hopeful for and that trade with NJ wasn't much so I'm surprised the Canucks couldn't pay the price. 

Still time to make trades and improve D,  but with how hard management says it is to move wingers with cap and term even productive ones like Pearson. Seems weird to add another that is unproven in the top 6 and that we dont have room for in the top 6 currently. There are a lot of teams in cap trouble that may look to offload a Dman for cheap because they have to, but being over the cap it pulls us out of all those opportunities as well.   

[Bobby James]

1 minute ago, Bure_Pavel said:

They should have used what limited cap space they had to improve defense or 3rd line center and used the rest to sign team friendly deals like Lazar (great signing). Not completing a Miller trade before free agency is tough because they would have had a better idea of the holes remaining after they got back some assets. Over paying for free agents in the cap era is what held back the previous regime. If you are going to pay premium prices in FA a winger in an already crowded top 6 is not our biggest need. I get that we needed to improve our PK bad but I think there were cheaper options out there. 

I'm not disagreeing with most of what you're saying regarding the team and what we need. I definitely think the little cap space we have needs to go towards addressing our RD. But to me that is Miller's cap, he goes out clears up about 5ish million and that covers the RD that comes back in. I'm still hoping a trade can be worked out for a RD centered around Miller. 

 

The only part I think we differ mainly on is our evaluations of our top 6. I don't think we have an over crowded top 6 or one that is it particular stellar. The forwards we've added should help a lot. It'll give the rookies like Podz and Hoglander less responsibility or requirement to have to be in the top 6 right away. Pearson may be able to play the actually role he fits (3 LW). Our PK needed desperate help. Also since the general plan seems to be moving out JT, with us losing our top point producing forward we will need others to replace him/ cover the loss of points. 

[Bobby James]

1 minute ago, Bure_Pavel said:

There are a lot of teams in cap trouble that may look to offload a Dman for cheap because they have to, but being over the cap it pulls us out of all those opportunities as well.

This is likely pretty bang on. 

 

I think we may have missed on Marino due to being over the cap at the moment, cause I think we could have paid the price he went for to NJ.