Canucks move up 8 spots in NHL Front Office Confidence Rankings

[IBatch]

9 hours ago, DSVII said:

A cheers back to you!

 

Ours isn't much better right now haha but yes I will agree it was on the lower end of the spectrum, but it's wasn't worthless. Gaunce/Subban/Shinkaruk/Corrado still had value you could trade. Besides, with the draft position Benning inherited from Gillis, we add Jake and McCann to that. There were other teams with less than worthless pools, something could have been done with that from an asset management standpoint.

 

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2108713-re-ranking-every-teams-prospect-pool-after-2014-nhl-draft

 

I think we can apply the benefit of hindsight here, at that time no one knew about Kass' issues, think we still could have got something for him. I still remember the hype at that time around him as being a potential Tyler Bertuzzi. Diminished value yes but value nonetheless, i hated the hodgson trade for the record although with hindsight i see it had to be done.

 

I think the fact that Anaheim traded Theodore to Vegas two years later to keep Manson meant that he was a moveable asset. Benning wanted an nhl ready D in Sbisa (that alone is debatable) as well as Bonino so we had to settle for the 24th pick. 

 

Anaheim was making a push for the cup, who knows? Maybe rather than targeting their roster depth in Bonino/Sbisa, we ask a bit more on the farm in a D man it could have worked. But we'll never know. 

 

But considering Shea Theodore was moved due to expansion draft considerations and Anaheim chose not to value him, I think it was within the realm of possibility

 

Their inaugural season was 2013-14, under Gillis

 

https://nhl.nbcsports.com/2013/06/14/introducing-the-utica-comets-of-the-ahl/

 

Yep, the cap itself represents blank slate potential. We've done to death how Benning has deployed that cap space, but I think it's huge that Gillis gave Benning a flexibility that he did not pass onto his successors. 

 

I think the fact that Jason Garrison was traded day one, and eventually Hamhuis/Burrows/Bieksa had expressed or had waived their NTCs years down the road makes the narrative of the 'immoveable' NTCs a bit shaky. For me at least. Besides the NTC deals were signed with cap friendly hits to make the 2011 run. A top 6 player or Top 4 d on a low cap hit is always appreciated by other teams, NTC or not.

 

As to the NTC itself, Garrison himself also said NTC or not, players want to play in teams where they feel wanted.

 

If you ask me, what ties the hands of a GM more than an NTC/NMC is the cap hit. Dickinson and Poolman don't need NTCs just because of the term and hit for their production. Hopefully we can move them like we did with Hamonic!

 

Again, cap space is potential, not here to discuss what Benning did with Eriksson (that can be an entire forum haha) but considering we've seen cap space of 6 mil go for a 1st rounder in trades, having $24 mil in cap could have represented 4 low 1sts for a quick rebuild. 

 

And yes, I place that blame more on FA than Benning. 

 

The MG years were good, but I think the worst thing FA and Benning did was try and recapture the MG years by kicking the can down the road. The 2020 UFA fiasco and our JT miller dilemma today represents us paying that price, but I think the worst is still to come with the cascading extensions that are due to hit (Bo this year, Petey next year, Brock after)

 

If only Benning had truly rebuilt one offseason, or waited ONE more year before testing the UFA market (2019 vs 2020) we would be in a much different place. So many if onlys with JB 

 

 

It's also why I'm still cautiously optimistic with JR and Allvin, not because I'm afraid of any competency issues, but because this ownership group is still hovering over the whole thing. I think with JR there's a good shield, but i'm worried about what happens after he leaves.

 

 

Edler was asked to waive as were others , they didn't.   Garrison was the only one that did (for what, a second? - master rebuild move there)  ... those are facts.   So it's not a "shaky" narrative.    Yet some think a new GM could just come in and shred NMC and full NTC's with say - a letter to the public that they were going to rebuild or something like NYR did.    Or what TO did etc.   Or what OTT did (all completely different circumstance's and guess where OTT was in their cycle, about exactly where we are now and they tore it up..nobody was claused so they could lol, people need to pull their heads out of their asses about this).   This team was more like SJ and DET, with their core all tied up until they weren't.    As for guys that did leave.   Hansen and Burrows both went to good/great teams at the time.   They did want to win, but both had little value.   Their replacement level back on our team was probably better and we all know how bad they were.  

 

Edler and the Sedins ... Well.   Hamhuis no point in re-hashing that.    Edler was always obviously more about the money ... look where he went lol.  LA - ooh contender?!  lol.  

 

Top team in the league you'd think we should get more then what we did.   Linden and Bure set this team up

for two cores. 

 

Im not sure how things will go with Allvin.   Maybe we should be tearing it apart now, trade QHs, Horvat and Miller and starting over.   Now or soon would be the time to do it. 

Edited August 30, 2022 by IBatch

[Fred65]

Quote

 Maybe we should be tearing it apart now, trade QHs, Horvat and Miller and starting over.   Now or soon would be the time to do it. 

No pls no.Many senior fans are on the clock as we speak  

[iceman64]

23 hours ago, King Loui said:

We're where now exactly?  We're a middling team who in the last 3 years have had one 1st round pick and one 2nd round pick.  Our prospect pipeline still sucks after 8 years of finishing bottom 5 continuously.  How do you suck for 8 years straight and still have a bottom 3, maybe bottom 5 prospect pipeline?   All Benning did was spend $$$ desperately trying to gain playoff experience and he couldn't do it.  It was the definition of a failure, whether it was his direction or Aqualini's, it was a failure....that's why he got fired.  You can ice an NHL roster without spending right up to the cap, the teams we were on par with during this tenure spent way less money than us for the same results.  

We have zero prospects to trade and any roster player that would be traded would just leave a giant hole in the lineup

 

 

Oh c'mon, this is Canada ( I'll explain that if you don't get the Canada part) and to say we have zero prospects to trade is funny as f_ck, we just filled a need at back-up goalie (Martin) and we were able to free up cap because of it and signing Demko for literally chump change compared to what he's worth. 

 We have a logjam in forwards and Klim will want a place and will get one this year or next, JTM can be traded and get enough to cover 2 spots in the line-up where we want upgrades anyway. That's not even counting if Kuz rocks the show and I expect he will and more. 

And if you missed it, we just signed LE Sutter and Rous that we needed then but weren't available and that was the best there was at the time of their signing. 

I remember it well.. 

 And speaking of that creep LE, everyone tends to forget just like TG, putting LE on the same line as the twins was wholeheartedly agreed with by national media, local media, and all the online writers and the majority of the CDC  that it was the best possible move to get the last quality years out of the Sedins. No one saw that coming, Sutter coming from where he did helped Bo become Bo so it wasn't a total loss but a good investment. 

Rous? A good second line stand in with some grit until we brought in JV for him to mentor but that went sideways with a injury and ego, we're in that same position of surrounding the core with top players and shoring up D that needed a Hughes and we got that, Then a top pairing Dman, we got that in OEL and a temporary fill in until we filled that one in with Garland.

 Pearson is as motivated as I've ever seen him and he's hitting his prime, if we traded him for a better 3rd pairing RHD who could do ok on 2nd pairing that wouldn't look out if place would easily be a huge win and he's ok with being traded if it's to a contending team. 

 Same with Garland, and you can almost expect that both players are gone soon for that reason and that's almost it. 

Plus we still have all our draft picks for a deeper draft next season, and the prospects we have now getting more seasoned so we can have injuries and not lose games because of it for a change. 

Maybe you don't like it but we're sitting a lot better than a lot teams and on course for some pretty entertaining hockey.

 Maybe you take me for a JB (rose colored glasses point of view) but you'd be wrong, I didn't like all his moves either and was pissed he didn't do more in other situations but there was a lot of good things he did as well.. 

 I respect the man for taking the job in the first place, I wouldn't have, not with a lot of the fans who are completely clueless when it comes to seeing the big picture. 

 I'll explain "Canada" now, this is small market and big taxes, if you think that Canada is somehow number 1 over playing in the USA in the big market, you'd be as clueless as them, and when a player is left 40% of his signing money, after everything makes a huge impact and when it's less in the states, another reason. 

Anddddd a fan base that is so rabid to sell the farm and try to win a single Stanley cup without building a team with a farm is even more clueless.. the odds of that happening are... well I'd bet against that any day of the week.

 And so far, we're batting zero... How about that.. 

 So trying to keep a team that fills the stands, while contracts come off, trade for players while your core develops and you try and get the best support with depth and we're at the end now. The window is finally open, not all the way but depth we need is still getting experience and until we know where we're at in that department, all it takes is time and we're finalt getting close there too...

 Relax dude . 

 

[AV.]

Imagine that.  A front office that's done quite little in the eight or so months they've been here is seen as an improvement on the last guys - the guys CDC swore to me were the best people in charge.

Makes you wonder..

[awalk]

This seems like a natural thing with a new management group, like the new management version of the new coach bump. 

 

Will be interesting to see how things stand in a few years. 

[King Loui]

9 hours ago, iceman64 said:

Oh c'mon, this is Canada ( I'll explain that if you don't get the Canada part) and to say we have zero prospects to trade is funny as f_ck, we just filled a need at back-up goalie (Martin) and we were able to free up cap because of it and signing Demko for literally chump change compared to what he's worth. 

 We have a logjam in forwards and Klim will want a place and will get one this year or next, JTM can be traded and get enough to cover 2 spots in the line-up where we want upgrades anyway. That's not even counting if Kuz rocks the show and I expect he will and more. 

And if you missed it, we just signed LE Sutter and Rous that we needed then but weren't available and that was the best there was at the time of their signing. 

I remember it well.. 

 And speaking of that creep LE, everyone tends to forget just like TG, putting LE on the same line as the twins was wholeheartedly agreed with by national media, local media, and all the online writers and the majority of the CDC  that it was the best possible move to get the last quality years out of the Sedins. No one saw that coming, Sutter coming from where he did helped Bo become Bo so it wasn't a total loss but a good investment. 

Rous? A good second line stand in with some grit until we brought in JV for him to mentor but that went sideways with a injury and ego, we're in that same position of surrounding the core with top players and shoring up D that needed a Hughes and we got that, Then a top pairing Dman, we got that in OEL and a temporary fill in until we filled that one in with Garland.

 Pearson is as motivated as I've ever seen him and he's hitting his prime, if we traded him for a better 3rd pairing RHD who could do ok on 2nd pairing that wouldn't look out if place would easily be a huge win and he's ok with being traded if it's to a contending team. 

 Same with Garland, and you can almost expect that both players are gone soon for that reason and that's almost it. 

Plus we still have all our draft picks for a deeper draft next season, and the prospects we have now getting more seasoned so we can have injuries and not lose games because of it for a change. 

Maybe you don't like it but we're sitting a lot better than a lot teams and on course for some pretty entertaining hockey.

 Maybe you take me for a JB (rose colored glasses point of view) but you'd be wrong, I didn't like all his moves either and was pissed he didn't do more in other situations but there was a lot of good things he did as well.. 

 I respect the man for taking the job in the first place, I wouldn't have, not with a lot of the fans who are completely clueless when it comes to seeing the big picture. 

 I'll explain "Canada" now, this is small market and big taxes, if you think that Canada is somehow number 1 over playing in the USA in the big market, you'd be as clueless as them, and when a player is left 40% of his signing money, after everything makes a huge impact and when it's less in the states, another reason. 

Anddddd a fan base that is so rabid to sell the farm and try to win a single Stanley cup without building a team with a farm is even more clueless.. the odds of that happening are... well I'd bet against that any day of the week.

 And so far, we're batting zero... How about that.. 

 So trying to keep a team that fills the stands, while contracts come off, trade for players while your core develops and you try and get the best support with depth and we're at the end now. The window is finally open, not all the way but depth we need is still getting experience and until we know where we're at in that department, all it takes is time and we're finalt getting close there too...

 Relax dude . 

 

You even say it in the post, we need to build a farm to win cups...well after eight years of draft guru Benning we have one of the worst farm systems in the league, and our AHL club results have been equally as poor as our NHL results the last 8 years in terms of standings... The guy couldn't even put together a succesfful AHL team. 

 

You think Danila Klimovich is going to challenge for a spot on the roster this year?     "Pearson is hitting his prime"   "Roussel was a second line fill-in"  "Sutter helped Bo become Bo"  Literally all of these statements are just horribly wrong 

 

You acknowledged we now have a affordable backup goaltender... Well before him we had a 4.5 million dollar backup in Holtby.  Does anybody even remember Braden Holtby as a Canuck?  Benning let Toffoli, Tanev and Markstrom walk and resigned Jake Virtanen and signed Braden Holtby instead..  We pointlessly signed and then jettisoned Holtby, Virtanen, Roussel, LE and Beagle all pretty much at the same time..  Now we have a 31 year old D-man locked in for what, 5 or 6 more years? The guy got 29 points and makes 7.5 million dollars.  Awesome stuff there

 

 

 

[DSVII]

On 8/30/2022 at 1:51 AM, IBatch said:

Edler was asked to waive as were others , they didn't.   Garrison was the only one that did (for what, a second? - master rebuild move there)  ... those are facts.   So it's not a "shaky" narrative.    Yet some think a new GM could just come in and shred NMC and full NTC's with say -

 

Edler and the Sedins ... Well.   Hamhuis no point in re-hashing that.    Edler was always obviously more about the money ... look where he went lol.  LA - ooh contender?!  lol.  

Bieksa/Burrows/Hamhuis/Hansen eventually did or signalled they were willing to. A 2nd + freed up cap space is a good rebuild move Similar to why we were cheering Hamonic moving out, it wasn't the 4th, the $3 million in cap space is worth more.

 

I wish Benning did more of those and acquired more 2nds aside from having Torts gift him a free one (only to throw it away by waiving Gadjovich)

 

Quote

Edler was asked to waive as were others , they didn't. those are facts.

Who were the others? where was this reported? The Sedins are really the only locked and unmoveable pieces IMO, and they were never asked, nor should they have been as Franchise players.

Bieksa said yes (2015), Burrows said yes (2016), Hansen said yes (2016), Higgins said yes (2016). Higgins didn't want to leave but he was basically sent down and off the roster until he caved (poor taste probably on JB's part). NTC is not as big a barrier to a new GM that has no attachment to the core as some would make it.

 

Quote

a letter to the public that they were going to rebuild or something like NYR did.    Or what TO did etc.   Or what OTT did (all completely different circumstance's and guess where OTT was in their cycle, about exactly where we are now and they tore it up..nobody was claused so they could lol, people need to pull their heads out of their asses about this).   This team was more like SJ and DET, with their core all tied up until they weren't.    As for guys that did leave.   Hansen and Burrows both went to good/great teams at the time.   They did want to win, but both had little value.   Their replacement level back on our team was probably better and we all know how bad they were.  

Forget the letter to the public, the best time to get value for your assets is before everyone else knows you're rebuilding, it should have been 2014-15 (FA wears the blame on that one). No one's asking for a carbon copy but to at least take the steps in the right direction (Accumulation of draft capital to make up for the fact our team winning % was going down so restock at the draft)

 

For every time we default to how it can go horribly wrong like OTT, BUFF, ARI. I'll throw up TBL, NYR, CHI, BOS, COL, ANA, LA, PITTS, WASH, teams that successfully rebuilt accumulating top picks at the draft, selling assets (NTC or no) that set them up for the next decade. Just because a GM group executed poorly doesn't make this rebuild fact any less true. 

 

SJ is on another tier of tied up compared to the Canucks, they're a crazy outlier. Again, Benning had the ability to deploy ~30% of his cap space when he started and that was without even trying to ask the guys to waive the NTCs in year one outside of Garrison. 

 

Quote

all completely different circumstance's

Canucks were more similar to the 2010s-14 Toronto Maple Leafs than we'd like to admit. Having less draft capital than a team that finishes 15th while having a non-playoff regular season winning %.

 

They were a team with no prospects, with a 'locked in' core of :

 

Phil Kessel with a $8x8 mil per year NTC/NMC

Dion Phaneuf with a $7x7 mil NTC/NMC

Tyler Bozak with a $4.2x5 mil x 5 M-NTC

Joffrey Lupul with a $5.25x5 mil x 5 M-NTC

DAVID CLARKSON (their 'Player Name') with a $5.25 mil x 5 M-NTC (for 15 pts a season)

 

They managed to move all these guys to tank for Mathews in 2016, less than 2 seasons.

 

The difference was the Leafs admitted they needed a rebuild and got out of it. They moved those guys. Because that's what any competent GM office can and should have done. 

 

But people will point to Tavares and laugh but ignore all the good they did to get out of that old core.

 

An NTC is not as big a roadblock to a GM that has no attachment to the previous core.

 

 

 

 

Quote

Top team in the league you'd think we should get more then what we did.   Linden and Bure set this team up

for two cores. 

 

Im not sure how things will go with Allvin.   Maybe we should be tearing it apart now, trade QHs, Horvat and Miller and starting over.   Now or soon would be the time to do it. 

I'm still optimistic we can do something with QH/Petey/Horvat, but not sure if Miller fits in the window of their primes. 

 

We're the 2010s minnesota wild right now (we even have bruce!), too good to tank in the regular season, too bad to contend in the playoffs. It's probably one of the toughest spots to be in for a management group so I'll wait and see. 

Edited August 31, 2022 by DSVII

[RU SERIOUS]

On 8/27/2022 at 11:05 PM, iceman64 said:

Bull$hit this is roster, not coaching ... Nice try though, everyone with the roster we had with any coach who could keep things simple but he was the rookie coach Canucks nation and media screamed blue murder for. 

 Coaching aside we definitely had a pretty good roster to go on long winning streaks in the best league in the world last season. 

 Until the core is gone, and the majority of the roster along with it that JB signed this is still his team. Like it or not.. 

Agree 100%   We still have a little ways to go untangling some of the questionable JB contracts and plugging some of the obvious holes but at least we can now see a bit of light in the tunnel after the extremely long-dark decade of JB/TG misery and failure. 

[RU SERIOUS]

6 hours ago, AV. said:

Imagine that.  A front office that's done quite little in the eight or so months they've been here is seen as an improvement on the last guys - the guys CDC swore to me were the best people in charge.

Makes you wonder..

Yes, that is funny indeed!    Goes to show you how bad the previous regime was when the new regime has does almost nothing and are hailed as "Saviours from the Bowels of the Earth" and only highlights how far and long it's going to take to unravel the JB fiasco he left us with.   

 

So be patient folks - this ain't gonna happen overnight and we'll just have to be happy with what we have and survive thru the many bad JB player contract expirations as they slowly get knocked off the books over the next few years one by one and JR can then begin to assemble what hopefully will be a better team.

 

[Viper007]

6 hours ago, King Loui said:

You even say it in the post, we need to build a farm to win cups...well after eight years of draft guru Benning we have one of the worst farm systems in the league, and our AHL club results have been equally as poor as our NHL results the last 8 years in terms of standings... The guy couldn't even put together a succesfful AHL team. 

 

You think Danila Klimovich is going to challenge for a spot on the roster this year?     "Pearson is hitting his prime"   "Roussel was a second line fill-in"  "Sutter helped Bo become Bo"  Literally all of these statements are just horribly wrong 

 

You acknowledged we now have a affordable backup goaltender... Well before him we had a 4.5 million dollar backup in Holtby.  Does anybody even remember Braden Holtby as a Canuck?  Benning let Toffoli, Tanev and Markstrom walk and resigned Jake Virtanen and signed Braden Holtby instead..  We pointlessly signed and then jettisoned Holtby, Virtanen, Roussel, LE and Beagle all pretty much at the same time..  Now we have a 31 year old D-man locked in for what, 5 or 6 more years? The guy got 29 points and makes 7.5 million dollars.  Awesome stuff there

 

 

 

Shows how much you know if you're basing OEL on just 29 points making 7.5 dollars.  How bout you look at how he was our #1 shutdown D-man (and did quite well, I might add).

[King Loui]

3 minutes ago, Viper007 said:

Shows how much you know if you're basing OEL on just 29 points making 7.5 dollars.  How bout you look at how he was our #1 shutdown D-man (and did quite well, I might add).

Big contracts like that are earned from getting points, that's why guys like Chris Tanev only get paid 4.5.  

[Viper007]

3 minutes ago, King Loui said:

Big contracts like that are earned from getting points, that's why guys like Chris Tanev only get paid 4.5.  

OEL gets paid more cause he's been a better defenseman all around.

[King Loui]

1 minute ago, Viper007 said:

OEL gets paid more cause he's been a better defenseman all around.

"Been".  Past tense. 

 

He had just 1 more point than Tanev last year

[Viper007]

1 minute ago, King Loui said:

"Been".  Past tense. 

 

He had just 1 more point than Tanev last year

He had "earned" his contract.  Just like JT will "earn" his next contract.

[King Loui]

25 minutes ago, Viper007 said:

He had "earned" his contract.  Just like JT will "earn" his next contract.

 

We traded for a guy who can no longer live up to his very large contract.  I'm not sure what him once earning it has to do with anything and I definitely don't know what JT has to do with any of this either

 

 

[iceman64]

12 hours ago, AV. said:

Imagine that.  A front office that's done quite little in the eight or so months they've been here is seen as an improvement on the last guys - the guys CDC swore to me were the best people in charge.

Makes you wonder..

Ummm you think JR would come here IF he wasn't offered full reign no matter what to take over here, if a GM has balls big enough to tell the fans and media in not so many words.. go F yourself, this is my job. I'll do it how I see fit. and if that's not selling the f'n farm like we ALWAYS have, for a roster with no depth, same ole shirt... 

 Sadly out last shot was the worst ever after Boston, it's taken all this time to have a clean slate and we're further ahead for once. 

 As long as we start a farm AND have a great roster we should be happy about it, IF and I mean IF our first shot at a farm continues that is. Still people whining like lil biotchs for one and done.. SCREW THAT!!! 

[AV.]

4 minutes ago, iceman64 said:

Ummm you think JR would come here IF he wasn't offered full reign no matter what to take over here, if a GM has balls big enough to tell the fans and media in not so many words.. go F yourself, this is my job. I'll do it how I see fit. and if that's not selling the f'n farm like we ALWAYS have, for a roster with no depth, same ole shirt... 

 Sadly out last shot was the worst ever after Boston, it's taken all this time to have a clean slate and we're further ahead for once. 

 As long as we start a farm AND have a great roster we should be happy about it, IF and I mean IF our first shot at a farm continues that is. Still people whining like lil biotchs for one and done.. SCREW THAT!!! 

I have a lot more faith in JR/Allvin now (having done relatively nothing yet) than I ever did with Benning/Weisbrod.  That's my point.  People went on and on about how good Benning/Wesbrod were, yet, some new guys who haven't done anything yet are already perceived to be better.  What does that really say about Benning/Weisbrod?

Personally, I'm happy to be patient.  Team is years away from being meaningful, so JR/Allvin can do the stuff they need to do.

[Viper007]

11 minutes ago, King Loui said:

 

We traded for a guy who can no longer live up to his very large contract.  I'm not sure what him once earning it has to do with anything and I definitely don't know what JT has to do with any of this either

 

 

I think he played just fine this past year.  You're making contract comparisons.  That's how JT comes up.  JT is going to earn his next contract just like OEL earned his contract.  All contracts are risks.  You never know how they're going to turn out.  You hope they live up or exceed them, but one injury can derail everything.  I think OEL will have a better season coming up here.  Now he knows where things are, he won't feel "lost" like you do when you first get to a new place.  I also like how you "claim" the Canucks have no prospects.  Well duh, they all graduated.  Did you forget they had the #1 or #2 ranked prospect pool during this 8 year span.  

[King Loui]

6 minutes ago, Viper007 said:

I think he played just fine this past year.  You're making contract comparisons.  That's how JT comes up.  JT is going to earn his next contract just like OEL earned his contract.  All contracts are risks.  You never know how they're going to turn out.  You hope they live up or exceed them, but one injury can derail everything.  I think OEL will have a better season coming up here.  Now he knows where things are, he won't feel "lost" like you do when you first get to a new place.  I also like how you "claim" the Canucks have no prospects.  Well duh, they all graduated.  Did you forget they had the #1 or #2 ranked prospect pool during this 8 year span.  

Yes and if JT falls off a cliff he will be criticized just like OEL is (by me) 

 

So what they graduated?  We've still been missing the playoffs consistently and should not have a bottom 3 pool 

[Viper007]

8 minutes ago, King Loui said:

Yes and if JT falls off a cliff he will be criticized just like OEL is (by me) 

 

So what they graduated?  We've still been missing the playoffs consistently and should not have a bottom 3 pool 

With this group its been 2 years.  1 year it was a Canada only COVID season.  Last year, it was a bad start (and yet they were still in the hunt at the end).  Last seasons experience will be good for the team (experience being in the playoff hunt).  Now this year is the year to gain more experience and make the playoffs. 

 

You're one of those people that will always be criticizing, even when they play well.  Mustafa is this you?