[Signing] Canucks re-sign J.T. Miller

[Coconuts]

1 minute ago, Sharpshooter said:

My life as a Nucks fan in a sentence. 
 

 

You and me both, but at least it's entertaining 

[Sharpshooter]

2 minutes ago, aGENT said:

Made f'ing delicious tacos tonight. Couldn't wait until Tuesday.

I accept your proposal. 
 

 

[iinatcc]

4 hours ago, Coconuts said:

Can we unlock the last thread now 

 

I still think we can hit 2k in trade speculation 

Or a "JT Miller ... Do we really need him ?" Thread 

[Provost]

It was the big chance to do some major surgery on the roster and got missed.

 

Now it is looking like another season of the goal becoming “hoping” we beat the odds and make the playoffs instead of actually thinking about winning the Cup.

[JM_]

22 minutes ago, Provost said:

It was the big chance to do some major surgery on the roster and got missed.

 

Now it is looking like another season of the goal becoming “hoping” we beat the odds and make the playoffs instead of actually thinking about winning the Cup.

moving Miller on his own was never enough. It has to be a full blow up to do what you want. 

[Provost]

8 minutes ago, JM_ said:

moving Miller on his own was never enough. It has to be a full blow up to do what you want. 

It was by far the biggest move and woidl have set up other possible moves.

 

If at the deadline they had not let the long odds run out on a playoff chase and moved Miller, Pearson, Myers, and a couple other bodies… then you have assets for Miller to use as currency plus a ton of cap space in an offseason when good players were being traded for nothing.

 

This offseason was pretty much the last chance to make improvements before you have to start thinking of whether we have to move on from Petterson, Hughes, and Demko because we missed that window and won’t have time to build the right team around them before they aren’t under club control and flee to a winning environment (or have to get hugely overpaid to stay).

 

The season is far from lost, but the team also can’t skitter along much longer before playoffs become a pipe dream yet again.

[JM_]

6 minutes ago, Provost said:

It was by far the biggest move and woidl have set up other possible moves.

 

If at the deadline they had not let the long odds run out on a playoff chase and moved Miller, Pearson, Myers, and a couple other bodies… then you have assets for Miller to use as currency plus a ton of cap space in an offseason when good players were being traded for nothing.

so, again Miller was not enough. What other bodies could we move that we didn't need to pay to move?

 

plus I believe Rutherford when he said the offers for Miller were not great. 

 

If we really want to do a reset, that means moving guys that can actually bring young assets or 1st round picks back, so Bo, maybe Garland, maybe retaining money on Myers, and even moving Demko. 

 

6 minutes ago, Provost said:

 

This offseason was pretty much the last chance to make improvements before you have to start thinking of whether we have to move on from Petterson, Hughes, and Demko because we missed that window and won’t have time to build the right team around them before they aren’t under club control and flee to a winning environment (or have to get hugely overpaid to stay).

 

The season is far from lost, but the team also can’t skitter along much longer before playoffs become a pipe dream yet again.

imo this issue is cultural, not the talent on paper. This forward group just isn't being held accountable for their defensive play, and for some reason they fold like a cheap tent when pressured at all.

 

 

Edited October 18, 2022 by JM_

[Provost]

4 minutes ago, JM_ said:

so, again Miller was not enough. What other bodies could we move that we didn't need to pay to move?

 

plus I believe Rutherford when he said the offers for Miller were not great. 

 

If we really want to do a reset, that means moving guys that can actually bring young assets or 1st round picks back, so Bo, maybe Garland, maybe retaining money on Myers, and even moving Demko. 

 

imo this issue is cultural, not the talent on paper. This forward group just isn't being held accountable for their defensive play, and for some reason they fold like a cheap tent when pressured at all.

 

 

Rutherford said they weren’t interested in picks and wanted young NHL ready players…. So maybe the offers weren’t what he wanted but we’re still good enough.

 

A reset now does mean moving out more of those guys… literally everyone we could honestly.  If we had traded bodies out at last deadline we would have had room to have changed our half the roster.  We aren’t there yet for needing to blow this up but if things are bleak by Christmas we should be.

 

A rebuild also means saying goodbye to our core players who won’t be around in 3-4 years when the team could hopefully start winning again.

[JM_]

6 minutes ago, Provost said:

Rutherford said they weren’t interested in picks and wanted young NHL ready players…. So maybe the offers weren’t what he wanted but we’re still good enough.

 

A reset now does mean moving out more of those guys… literally everyone we could honestly.  If we had traded bodies out at last deadline we would have had room to have changed our half the roster.  We aren’t there yet for needing to blow this up but if things are bleak by Christmas we should be.

 

A rebuild also means saying goodbye to our core players who won’t be around in 3-4 years when the team could hopefully start winning again.

So to me thats really everyone but Podz, Petey, Hughes. Move all others. We may yet come to this. 

[Coconuts]

2 hours ago, Provost said:

It was by far the biggest move and woidl have set up other possible moves.

 

If at the deadline they had not let the long odds run out on a playoff chase and moved Miller, Pearson, Myers, and a couple other bodies… then you have assets for Miller to use as currency plus a ton of cap space in an offseason when good players were being traded for nothing.

 

This offseason was pretty much the last chance to make improvements before you have to start thinking of whether we have to move on from Petterson, Hughes, and Demko because we missed that window and won’t have time to build the right team around them before they aren’t under club control and flee to a winning environment (or have to get hugely overpaid to stay).

 

The season is far from lost, but the team also can’t skitter along much longer before playoffs become a pipe dream yet again.

I also view us as a fringe playoff team and agree that is things don't turn around fast we may be out of it early again. We saw last season just how hard it is to make up ground after digging yourself a hole. Doesn't even have to be as deep a hole as last season, you just don't get a ton of flex when vying for what's probably the 3rd divisional spot at best, wildcard spot at worst. 

 

If things do get out of hand I can't help but wonder if folks won't look back on last season's run as a period that actually cost us a significant roster and culture change. I know some folks already do.

 

1 hour ago, JM_ said:

So to me thats really everyone but Podz, Petey, Hughes. Move all others. We may yet come to this. 

You've been saying it's one or the other for a while, we'll see what happens. NMC or not, if this club doesn't turn things around Miller might be willing to waive to play somewhere competitive at some point going forward. Could very well see guys like Horvat and Boeser shipped out too. 

[JM_]

15 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

You've been saying it's one or the other for a while, we'll see what happens. NMC or not, if this club doesn't turn things around Miller might be willing to waive to play somewhere competitive at some point going forward. Could very well see guys like Horvat and Boeser shipped out too. 

I have. I've seen this as a binary thing for a while now. 

 

I just don't want to see middling effort, middling results anymore. I do think this team on paper has a solid chance to be good. Why the culture is curdling right now is a mystery to me.

 

But if this team is shite by US thanksgiving, blow it up. Blow it up real good. 

[Provost]

2 hours ago, JM_ said:

So to me thats really everyone but Podz, Petey, Hughes. Move all others. We may yet come to this. 

Why exclude them?  A tear down means we aren’t a winning team before contracts expire.  They are also our most valuable assets.

 

As for the comment about not being any good offers for Miller that you keep saying… I don’t know if you see that your comment is the most damning thing anyone has ever said about this management group.

 

If they have a top line centre who is in the top ten in league scoring, plays a physical brand of playoff hockey, AND is on a remarkably team friendly contract for two more playoff runs during a time when teams are seriously cap crunched… and they can’t find a way to turn THAT into significant assets… that is gross incompetence and a stunning lack of creativity.  What could we expect for their ability to make moves for lesser assets?

 

I can buy that they just decided not to move Miller because it would really negatively impact the room during a run of success… or that they just misjudged the market on whether the demand for him would be higher in the summer.

[Provost]

25 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

I also view us as a fringe playoff team and agree that is things don't turn around fast we may be out of it early again. We saw last season just how hard it is to make up ground after digging yourself a hole. Doesn't even have to be as deep a hole as last season, you just don't get a ton of flex when vying for what's probably the 3rd divisional spot at best, wildcard spot at worst. 

 

If things do get out of hand I can't help but wonder if folks won't look back on last season's run as a period that actually cost us a significant roster and culture change. I know some folks already do.

 

You've been saying it's one or the other for a while, we'll see what happens. NMC or not, if this club doesn't turn things around Miller might be willing to waive to play somewhere competitive at some point going forward. Could very well see guys like Horvat and Boeser shipped out too. 

I was very in favour of making moves but wasn’t too critical of not making them last deadline giving some benefit of the doubt.

 

At the time I said repeatedly that I hope that little run of success doesn’t end up costing us years of more rebuilding.  It paralyzed the management group from making moves whereas if the team had kept losing they would have probably shipped out as many veteran players with positive or neutral value as they could to prepare for more room to make changes in the offseason.

 

I am still hopeful that things turn around quickly.  We have just looked small and slow… and played like we expected to win on talent alone rather than work effort.

[Coconuts]

18 minutes ago, JM_ said:

I have. I've seen this as a binary thing for a while now. 

 

I just don't want to see middling effort, middling results anymore. I do think this team on paper has a solid chance to be good. Why the culture is curdling right now is a mystery to me.

 

But if this team is shite by US thanksgiving, blow it up. Blow it up real good. 

I think they could still turn things around, it's still early, but I don't see our margin for error being as large as some other folks might. Most teams have highs and lose throughout the season, it's the top end teams that have fewer of those though and I don't see us as one of those. Too many valleys and that's basically it. 

 

It's not doom and gloom on my part, they've got to nip it in the bud quick. Three games isn't enough to panic over but it's certainly cause for concern given how last season began. I've heard all summer how that second half team was the real Canucks and folks were quick to write off the first bit of the season on Green. The truth is somewhere between those two poles though, it was the same core on the ice all season. 

 

If, and it's still an if, the season gets away on us by November or December we should see some significant change though. All of Horvat, Miller, and Boeser should be in play. And I've been on team keep Horvat. But even so, I question whether this older part of the core is good enough or if we're not further out like I've been saying. I still say we're four years out from contending, if they don't think our pricy vets will be worth their salaries by the time we get to that point we may as well rip the band-aid off sooner than later. 

Edited October 18, 2022 by Coconuts

[Coconuts]

6 minutes ago, Provost said:

I was very in favour of making moves but wasn’t too critical of not making them last deadline giving some benefit of the doubt.

 

At the time I said repeatedly that I hope that little run of success doesn’t end up costing us years of more rebuilding.  It paralyzed the management group from making moves whereas if the team had kept losing they would have probably shipped out as many veteran players with positive or neutral value as they could to prepare for more room to make changes in the offseason.

 

I am still hopeful that things turn around quickly.  We have just looked small and slow… and played like we expected to win on talent alone rather than work effort.

It put management in a tough spot, I think Rutherford wanted to make bolder moves when he came in but suddenly we were in the middle of the standings and the team seemed to be trending more towards winning. I get why they didn't make drastic changes but I can't help but wonder if that bites them in retrospect. 

 

They did well to move Motte, at least they've shown they're not interested in letting players walk for nothing. 

 

There's still time to turn things around but they need to do it sooner than later. 

[Diamonds]

3 hours ago, Provost said:

It was by far the biggest move and woidl have set up other possible moves.

 

If at the deadline they had not let the long odds run out on a playoff chase and moved Miller, Pearson, Myers, and a couple other bodies… then you have assets for Miller to use as currency plus a ton of cap space in an offseason when good players were being traded for nothing.

 

This offseason was pretty much the last chance to make improvements before you have to start thinking of whether we have to move on from Petterson, Hughes, and Demko because we missed that window and won’t have time to build the right team around them before they aren’t under club control and flee to a winning environment (or have to get hugely overpaid to stay).

 

The season is far from lost, but the team also can’t skitter along much longer before playoffs become a pipe dream yet again.

In hindsight, would you have accepted the rumored offer of Chytil, Lundkvist, and a 1st (Brad Lambert) for Miller? As far as I can tell that's the only somewhat legitimate offer we received. 

[Honourable Hughes]

I believe trading Miller at this point would be way more harmful than good, especially to the clubs reputation. I was onboard with trading Miller prior to his re-signing but now this guy is signed to an 8 year contract to play in Vancouver and has a family. If you go ahead and trade him away, the rest of the league, especially the player agents, will remember that. It also just makes us look like we don’t know what we are doing.

 

I am an advocate of trading a winger such as Garland or Boeser, not as big of a piece coming back but we are abundant at the winger position. If Horvat is going, a 3C must come back, but at that point why trade him if you have no C to take his spot and likely aren’t getting a top 4 D. If you have to trade, it should be a winger for a D. But it’s tough to do a hockey trade with the flat cap, the one thing we have going for us is someone like Garland or Boeser is cap controlled for a few years so teams can perhaps commit to that, vs Horvat is expiring and apparently wants 1C $.

[Honourable Hughes]

9 minutes ago, Diamonds said:

In hindsight, would you have accepted the rumored offer of Chytil, Lundkvist, and a 1st (Brad Lambert) for Miller? As far as I can tell that's the only somewhat legitimate offer we received. 

I liked that offer at the time, Petey Horvat and Chytil down the middle. Lundqvist would be somewhere in the top 4 and we could’ve added to our diminishing prospect pool.

 

edit: but I’m happy he is signed now, hopefully we don’t need to blow it up and we can stick to our commitments 

Edited October 18, 2022 by Honourable Hughes

[aGENT]

15 minutes ago, Diamonds said:

In hindsight, would you have accepted the rumored offer of Chytil, Lundkvist, and a 1st (Brad Lambert) for Miller? As far as I can tell that's the only somewhat legitimate offer we received. 

With how tight lipped this management group has been, I don't think we can even remotely guess as to what kind of offers may/may not have been on the table, or might have come on the table this summer, if they weren't prioritizing extending him.

[JM_]

1 hour ago, Provost said:

Why exclude them?  A tear down means we aren’t a winning team before contracts expire.  They are also our most valuable assets.

 

As for the comment about not being any good offers for Miller that you keep saying… I don’t know if you see that your comment is the most damning thing anyone has ever said about this management group.

 

If they have a top line centre who is in the top ten in league scoring, plays a physical brand of playoff hockey, AND is on a remarkably team friendly contract for two more playoff runs during a time when teams are seriously cap crunched… and they can’t find a way to turn THAT into significant assets… that is gross incompetence and a stunning lack of creativity.  What could we expect for their ability to make moves for lesser assets?

 

I can buy that they just decided not to move Miller because it would really negatively impact the room during a run of success… or that they just misjudged the market on whether the demand for him would be higher in the summer.

I'm not sure how damning it is. Its hard to move top players sometimes, because there's a lot of long term risk. I'm sure they could have moved him for a 1st and prospect in a heartbeat. In a teardown thats fine, if you're trying to improve instantly on the fly thats not good enough.