[PGT] New Jersey Devils at Vancouver Canucks | Nov. 01, 2022

[JM_]

Just now, stawns said:

again, it's never going to be a tear down rebuild, especially now.  They can move 3-4 significant players who have some value, but that's all they need to do I think.  This "thing" isn't unfixable, it just should have been fixed at the tdl and the draft.  The path is still clear, they've just significantly cut down the return they're going to get.

why especially not now? anyone on this team is movable if we're in full tank mode. We can either retain salary or take bad contracts back. 

[EdgarM]

14 minutes ago, Qwags said:

It's funny how this team has had an (arguable) increase in the quality of coaching in the last 10 years, yet the team continues to perform worse and worse.

 

To me, it's 100% on the players, and always has been. 

We have always lacked the critical pieces of a successful team; Character and Leadership. Your team can have all the talent in the world but they are nothing without these.

[stawns]

1 minute ago, JM_ said:

why especially not now? anyone on this team is movable if we're in full tank mode. We can either retain salary or take bad contracts back. 

because they have a solid core of young players and some newly acquired players who fit together pretty well.  What they need is to move out some key players with salary and bring in guys to support the young core.  They don't need a rebuild, they just need to recognize that they have to transition into a new phase of the old one and make some tough, unpopular decisions to get there.

[chon derry]

1 minute ago, stawns said:

well Gillis left a huge mess and there wasn't much to trade for the kind of return a rebuild requires.  When people exclaim they're upset about not tearing it down early on, I'm never really sure they are thinking that JB had that would bring back the kind of return that a rebuild requires.  Both Kesler and Luongo screwed the organization over and they were the only two, outside of the twins, who had any value.  So where was this rebuild going to sprout from? 

 

IMO, a tear down rebuild was never a realistic possibility with this organization.

Gotcha  never realized u were talkin reactively.  Kessler telling burr to take the home town discount and then reupping his juicy one never sat well with me and the trash talk at 2010 olympics. And the Way he  left.   But the  canucks as an Org. throwin money up like that who can blame them   I’d been there with a butterfly net. 

[MaxVerstappen33]

12 minutes ago, JM_ said:

none. But I doubt they'd come out with that before the GM did.

 

FA has always spent to the max and supported the plans his hockey op's people brought forward if they were good plans. And before we get into a 'but Linden' thing, that rebuild idea of his was him trying to get a second attempt at things. His first idea was to retool around the Sedins.

 

I do think if JR/PA came to him and said this thing is unfixable, he'd go along. 

 

Burke just said on TV that JR would never do a rebuild. He's too impatient. But what JR/PA call a rebuild is the retool that they did in Pittsburgh.  

 

I get the feeling we ended up JR is because he was the only guy willing to come to the job knowing that there is to be no rebuild.

[stawns]

7 minutes ago, Smashian Kassian said:

 

2. No one ever realistically thought Dickinson could be moved without attaching an asset. Cap is going up, we'll see. 

 

3. In 08-09 they made the playoffs with a bunch of younger guys, they proceeded to miss 2 years straight after instead of take an expected jump, they didn't blow it all up & tank. Even for years after that they were a middling team usually out in round 1, never decided to bottom out & go for a franchise player in the draft.

 

To bring it back to the Canucks; the new regime just took over & they have one of the youngest teams in the league, with good but underachieving pieces. The flat cap & with previous deals made things hard last summer, but I'm expecting them to change parts, rework the team, and build it up over the coming years. And that's what they've said. 

 

They'll have 20-40 million over the next few years & opportunity to make changes.

 

the current mix of players isn't good and there's no cohesion or chemistry with this roster.  They need some significant changes

[Smashian Kassian]

35 minutes ago, JM_ said:

if we're going to go blow up, we need to be committed to the full ugly imo. No one's sacred. 

 

Is that where your leaning now? Blow it all up?

 

 

[EdgarM]

8 minutes ago, stawns said:

well Gillis left a huge mess and there wasn't much to trade for the kind of return a rebuild requires.  When people exclaim they're upset about not tearing it down early on, I'm never really sure they are thinking that JB had that would bring back the kind of return that a rebuild requires.  Both Kesler and Luongo screwed the organization over and they were the only two, outside of the twins, who had any value.  So where was this rebuild going to sprout from? 

 

IMO, a tear down rebuild was never a realistic possibility with this organization.

We also had players who had no intention of helping the team out at all. The Sedins and Edler refused to move and Tanev, Markstrom did us no favors either. Hansen and Burrows were the only ones with character and leadership who "took one for the team". We need more Burrows/Hansen type players on this team.

[JM_]

2 minutes ago, stawns said:

because they have a solid core of young players and some newly acquired players who fit together pretty well.  What they need is to move out some key players with salary and bring in guys to support the young core.  They don't need a rebuild, they just need to recognize that they have to transition into a new phase of the old one and make some tough, unpopular decisions to get there.

don't you think if that were possible, they would have done it? what you're suggesting simply may not be possible in this market and with the cap constraints this team has.

[stawns]

1 minute ago, chon derry said:

Gotcha  never realized u were talkin reactively.  Kessler telling burr to take the home town discount and then reupping his juicy one never sat well with me and the trash talk at 2010 olympics. And the Way he  left.   But the  canucks as an Org. throwin money up like that who can blame them   I’d been there with a butterfly net. 

I was never too worried about the contracts JB handed out because they were all going to expire within a year or two of each other and they still had to ice a team while the newly drafted guys developed.  Really, he pretty much nailed the timeline dead on as Petey and the young guys are ready to take over and most of his big contracts were set to expire in the next year or two.  He clearly saw where the dominant core was going to come from on this roster.

[Angry Goose]

Tough spot for the team to be in.

 

EP/Hughes/Demko are elite players when they are on, but the team needs a few more players like them to give them that scoring punch they need, especially if they cant come to terms w Horvat.  

 

Myers MIGHT be moveable at the TDL.  OEL is immovable unless you attach significant assets and he agrees to a trade.  Might better to to just try and ride his contract out for 2-3 years when a buy out is more palatable. Tough either way.  

 

Honestly I would just like to see how the team does with Rathbone/Burroughs over OEL/Myers.  What they give up in exp they might gain with in pace/tenacity. 

 

The middle 6 FWD group is concerning.  It needs to be better if this team wants to compete, with or without changes.  

 

Im still on board with trying to transition in younger players and seeing if that can help impact the team. 

[MaxVerstappen33]

2 minutes ago, stawns said:

because they have a solid core of young players and some newly acquired players who fit together pretty well.  What they need is to move out some key players with salary and bring in guys to support the young core.  They don't need a rebuild, they just need to recognize that they have to transition into a new phase of the old one and make some tough, unpopular decisions to get there.

Tanking (selling players and getting worse on paper) even for one year counts as a rebuild. We won't be selling you know who. 

 

We let the tank come to us. It's not like we didn't try at the start of the year. 

[JM_]

1 minute ago, Smashian Kassian said:

 

Is that where your leaning now? Blow it all up?

 

 

yep. F it. Blow this thing up and at least we can all have hope again. I think the 2 year reset idea is just more mediocrity waiting to happen. 

[stawns]

1 minute ago, Angry Goose said:

Tough spot for the team to be in.

 

EP/Hughes/Demko are elite players when they are on, but the team needs a few more players like them to give them that scoring punch they need, especially if they cant come to terms w Horvat.  

 

Myers MIGHT be moveable at the TDL.  OEL is immovable unless you attach significant assets and he agrees to a trade.  Might better to to just try and ride his contract out for 2-3 years when a buy out is more palatable. Tough either way.  

 

Honestly I would just like to see how the team does with Rathbone/Burroughs over OEL/Myers.  What they give up in exp they might gain with in pace/tenacity. 

 

The middle 6 FWD group is concerning.  It needs to be better if this team wants to compete, with or without changes.  

 

Im still on board with trying to transition in younger players and seeing if that can help impact the team. 

he's clearly playing hurt, but when OEL is healthy, he's s till a top 2-3 dman on most teams.  I'm not too worried about having to play out his contract.  If they move Miller, Boeser, Myers and maybe Hughes, they're in pretty good shape.

[stawns]

1 minute ago, JM_ said:

yep. F it. Blow this thing up and at least we can all have hope again. I think the 2 year reset idea is just more mediocrity waiting to happen. 

what does blow it up mean?  Who goes, who stays?  

[stawns]

3 minutes ago, MaxVerstappen33 said:

Tanking (selling players and getting worse on paper) even for one year counts as a rebuild. We won't be selling you know who. 

 

We let the tank come to us. It's not like we didn't try at the start of the year. 

they need to make several very significant changes with this roster, thsat' for sure.  But isn't that a re-tool, not a rebuild?  To me, what they need is a transition to a new pahses focused on the young players

[JM_]

Just now, stawns said:

what does blow it up mean?  Who goes, who stays?  

everyone who can get us something of value. Full ugly. AZ ugly. 

 

I think I've come to the conclusion that we just don't have enough elite talent, and it will just take too long to rebuild an NHL quality defence. The timing is misaligned. 

 

There's also something very wrong with the mentality of the group, which may not be fixable. 

 

[MaxVerstappen33]

14 minutes ago, stawns said:

.  Both Kesler and Luongo screwed the organization over and they were the only two, outside of the twins, who had any value.  So where was this rebuild going to sprout from? 

.

The rebuild was going to sprout from finishing dead last for a season or 2. Take on garbage contracts from contenders for picks. Use cap space to sign reclaimation players to trade at deadlines. 

[Fanuck]

18 minutes ago, JM_ said:

I do think if JR/PA came to him and said this thing is unfixable, he'd go along.

Don't you think that if JR is the 'hall of fame' GM that people believe he is, he would've recognized this thing is 'unfixable' before signing Miller to a long-term deal, and instead of taking on that financial commitment he would've said as much to ownership?   I mean, really NOTHING meaningful with this roster has changed since last year when we weren't good enough - why would JR believe this year would've been different?  

 

[JM_]

1 minute ago, Fanuck said:

Don't you think that if JR is the 'hall of fame' GM that people believe he is, he would've recognized this thing is 'unfixable' before signing Miller to a long-term deal, and instead of taking on that financial commitment he would've said as much to ownership?   I mean, really NOTHING meaningful with this roster has changed since last year when we weren't good enough - why would JR believe this year would've been different?  

 

Miller still has trade value, maybe more now that his deal is locked in. I don't think we were getting any good trade offers before, but under a full tank scenario the return expectations can be a bit lower.