(Rumour) 4 teams interested in J.T. Miller

[DeNiro]

1 minute ago, Kenny Powers said:

It gives them a chance to play meaningful hockey in their prime. That’s pretty relevant.

 

I agree it will take a lot to fix our D, but building around EP and QH means we need to improve next year, not tear it down to the studs

It’s not about tearing down.

 

Its about reallocating cap space from up front towards the D and building from there.

 

A Miller trade gives you the cap space to acquire a D man and the assets to develop or acquire another. Finding another 2nd line center is not some impossible take especially with more cap space and extra assets.

[-DLC-]

5 minutes ago, DeNiro said:

Except with the cap space and assets acquired from a trade they’ll be able to acquire players (like defensemen) that help turn us into an actual good team.

 

 

You keep speaking in certainties to make your "opinion" correct.

 

Reword it to reality, which is:

 

With the cap space and acquisitions from a trade, they may be able to acquire players (like defensement) that may make us a good team or an even worse team.

 

That's the reality of the situation. No magic wand/presto instant formula. Just ask the Oilers about that.

 

You can't just predict the future and that it'll all come up roses. Get past that hurdle to see why that's really the emotional response. The hopes and dreams one.

[MeanSeanBean]

4 minutes ago, grandmaster said:

I don’t think the ones wanting a JT trade or the ones wanting to keep him can convince the other side. Seems like we need an arbitrator on this forum, lol.

. 
 

 

I hope that if he stays on after this season is up and when his NTC kicks in, we stop these arguments that seem to go nowhere.

 

I don't think any of us are trying to convince the other side. This is a discussion board, and we are discussing opposing views on a subject. Isn't that the entire point of this forum?

[EdgarM]

6 minutes ago, DeNiro said:

That’s actually not emotional whatsoever. That’s based on simple logic and looking at the age that players regress. A 34 year old (Millers age at earliest we’ll be able to contend) will not be able to contribute like they did before they’re 30. That’s not some earth shattering claim, there’s plenty of evidence to back that up.

 

I don’t have to say “I know more than professionals” they’ve already admitted that their initial belief of where this team was at was wrong. And they’ve shown that through their recent moves. 
 

All players are available but Pettersson and Hughes, tells me that they are thinking much farther ahead than their initial 2 years. So if that’s the case it’s not unreasonable to think that Miller might not fit in that timeline anymore.

 

Fans liking certain players is the type of emotional decisions that don’t need to be made right now. It all comes down to when we can realistically be a contender. That timeline is not what it once was and people need to accept that.

 

 

I think the time line is what people are not agreeing on. We are not looking at the time line in which Millers contract becomes worse this is all about Petey and Hughes. 

They are coming into their prime so everything is geared around that. They recently got letters on their jerseys?

Hence management looking for prospects/players in the 25/26 year old range as opposed to draft picks. Not saying they ignore them though because they know we need prospects brewing in the minors. 

Miller was already here, as was Boeser and Demko. They are making the best of what they were dealt with. The same as they tried to do with BB.   

Miller will help the team as they gradually make it to the post season. 

As I said before, Miller is the least of our worries.

We need 2 top 4 dmen and bottom 6 forwards. Although the dman that will be with Hughes will be almost impossible to find, I think the bottom 6 guys should be easy enough to acquire.

Patience is needed before we see what this plan starts to looks like.

[TheRussianRocket1994]

4 minutes ago, Shayster007 said:

I've never started it as fact, and most of the arguments I see in regards to Miller don't state it as fact either. But the overwhelming statistical average does paint a picture, and that's what most people apposed to signing aging player long term reference.

 

For every Jagr there is 100 OELs where we see a significant drop off in performance at around 30. To further that argument, Jagr is not only a biological anomaly, but also wildy concidered an absolute fitness beast. Other notables are the Sedin Twins, and players like Crosby and Ovechkin who have aged like fine wines in the NHL. But there has, and was extensive reports backing the work ethic of these players. I don't ever recall hearing that Miller is consistently one of the top fitness performers year in and year out. But, if I'm wrong here I'd love to hear to and see a source. I just don't recall seeing it personally.

Again, point being it can go either way and no one has a crystal ball!! And, yes people have stated it as fact on both sides. 
 

Also fact, is what deb said about taking care of health fitness…that’s true in all sports / all aspects of life. You do not know his current fitness, or his future fitness. Even if it’s not excellent now, doesn’t mean it can’t change. Hell, Tocchet address fitness, so there’s a good change that will change across the team regardless. 

[Sharpshooter]

1 minute ago, DeNiro said:

They’re all pieces that can be used to acquire players in the future when we’re ready to contend.

 

The reason we’re in our current position is because management wasn’t thinking long term. They can start doing that with a Miller trade.

I think that particular honour belongs to Ownership. 
 

Management seems to be trying to work within the parameters of a meddlesome profiteer. 

[DeNiro]

6 minutes ago, IRR said:

That’s what some don’t understand…..keep f’n around for an extra 2-3 years and Petey, Hughes, Demko etc are going to want the f out of dodge…if that happens add another 5-10 years, which people have already b****** about the last 8 ish. 

Keep going with the current roster because you believe they can be good is already “f’n around”. They’ve shown their so far from the top teams it’s gonna take years to get there anyways.

 

Either Pettersson and Hughes are committed to being a part of that building or they’re not. You can’t keep putting out an average roster because you’re afraid of losing two players.

[TheRussianRocket1994]

5 minutes ago, stawns said:

And if they do, then you do it and get the huge hauls from those deals.  If they keep miller, and settle into the mushy middle, they might want out anyway 

So, you just wanted to keep repeating things…get good / great players and just keep cycling through them…at some point you need to build on what you have and move forward! 

[DeNiro]

2 minutes ago, -DLC- said:

You keep speaking in certainties to make your "opinion" correct.

 

Reword it to reality, which is:

 

With the cap space and acquisitions from a trade, they may be able to acquire players (like defensement) that may make us a good team or an even worse team.

 

That's the reality of the situation. No magic wand/presto instant formula. Just ask the Oilers about that.

 

You can't just predict the future and that it'll all come up roses. Get past that hurdle to see why that's really the emotional response. The hopes and dreams one.

Umm no that’s called building a team. 
 

Of course things have to go right. But that doesn’t mean you don’t need things like assets and cap space.

 

That’s how literally every contender has built their team. They don’t force things and have unrealistic timelines.

[stawns]

2 minutes ago, DeNiro said:

Keep going with the current roster because you believe they can be good is already “f’n around”. They’ve shown their so far from the top teams it’s gonna take years to get there anyways.

 

Either Pettersson and Hughes are committed to being a part of that building or they’re not. You can’t keep putting out an average roster because you’re afraid of losing two players.

Imo, that's the risk they took the second they made the Horvat trade.  

[-DLC-]

1 minute ago, IRR said:

Again, point being it can go either way and no one has a crystal ball!! And, yes people have stated it as fact on both sides. 
 

Also fact, is what deb said about taking care of health fitness…that’s true in all sports / all aspects of life. You do not know his current fitness, or his future fitness. Even if it’s not excellent now, doesn’t mean it can’t change. Hell, Tocchet address fitness, so there’s a good change that will change across the team regardless. 

And if we've learned anything through our years as hockey fans, it's that even the young guys can flounder. Be flops. Have issues...health and otherwise. 

 

So even the "assets" can succumb to things that aren't on paper or expected. We've had a whole lot of that misfortune. Some here just think of players brought in as "the answer". Often they just lead to more questions. We know what we have in JT....not in the future, no. But that holds true for all players.

[-DLC-]

3 minutes ago, DeNiro said:

 it’s gonna take years to get there anyways.

 

 

That's emotional and reactionary. 

 

Do you factor in goaltending? Things that will improve that were unfortunate things that unfolded?

[MeanSeanBean]

7 minutes ago, IRR said:

Again, point being it can go either way and no one has a crystal ball!! And, yes people have stated it as fact on both sides. 
 

Also fact, is what deb said about taking care of health fitness…that’s true in all sports / all aspects of life. You do not know his current fitness, or his future fitness. Even if it’s not excellent now, doesn’t mean it can’t change. Hell, Tocchet address fitness, so there’s a good change that will change across the team regardless. 

You're more comfortable basing your opinion off "what ifs". I'm more comfortable forming my opinion off evidence based off the past.

 

You're right, I don't know his current fitness, but neither do you? I asked if you knew anything about him having a high fitness level in my last post and didn't get a response. Again, what's more likely to be a final outcome. A player entering their 30s makes notable fitness advances, or a player entering their 30s starts to see a decline like the majority of players do. I work in physical fitness and rehabilitation professionally, in my experience it's the latter.

 

We don't have a crystal ball, we don't know the future. But the next best thing is using the evidence we have available to make an educated guess. That's why some of us didn't want to trade for OEL or sign Miller or Horvat long term.

Edited February 19, 2023 by Shayster007

[Ted Lasso]

6 minutes ago, grandmaster said:

I don’t think the ones wanting a JT trade or the ones wanting to keep him can convince the other side. Seems like we need an arbitrator on this forum, lol.

. 
 

 

I hope that if he stays on after this season is up and when his NTC kicks in, we stop these arguments that seem to go nowhere.

 

I’ve tried to understand the case for moving him.
 

What I hear is:

 

1. we can replace him via UFA / trade returns and still improve, or

2. we need a longer rebuild, and we’ll retain our elite core while getting worse

 

Management has set our strategy, and trading Miller doesn’t serve that strategy.

[EdgarM]

9 minutes ago, Shayster007 said:

Linden and Beagle stayed relevant as they aged because they excelled at the defensive side of the game. One of Miller's biggest knocks is he doesn't generally read the defensive side as well as he could. 

 

Iginla was one of the best power forwards in the history of the NHL and in a completely different tier at JT Miller in my eyes.

I don't think you can predict how he might play defensively in the next 5-6 years can you? You can just make a guess like the rest of us.

[DeNiro]

Just now, -DLC- said:

That's emotional and reactionary. 

 

Do you factor in goaltending? Things that will improve that were unfortunate things that unfolded?

How is that emotional?

 

Thats actually logical. Emotional is based on hope which you’re clearly showing your argument is based on. 
 

Logical is looking at a team with the worst defensive and pk stats in the league. Logical is realizing that goaltending saving you every night is not a way to build a team. Logical is realizing that it takes years to build a team into what we’re seeing with current contenders.

 

Im done arguing about what’s emotional and what’s not. I’ve stated my opinion on where I think this team is at. And it’s not based on emotion. Past me would have based my opinion on emotion. But all that has equaled is disappointment.

[BigTramFan]

53 minutes ago, Kenny Powers said:

Defence is our greatest need. Trading Miller creates a new problem on offence. In 3 years, Raty or our 1st this year can anchor our 2nd line.

 

 

 

 

Yes agreed. And the return for Miller can pair with Hughes and anchor our third line

[MeanSeanBean]

1 minute ago, EdgarM said:

I don't think you can predict how he might play defensively in the next 5-6 years can you? You can just make a guess like the rest of us.

Yup, 100%. No one can tell what a player will achieve in 5 or 6 years. But I definitely don't see Miller transfering into a legit defensive stalwart in the back half of his career. He just hasn't shown me anything to beileve that's how his career will progress. I'd reckon it's more likely he's able to use his offensive flair to stay relevant on the PP if anything.

[DeNiro]

3 minutes ago, Kenny Powers said:

I’ve tried to understand the case for moving him.
 

What I hear is:

 

1. we can replace him via UFA / trade returns and still improve, or

2. we need a longer rebuild, and we’ll retain our elite core while getting worse

 

Management has set our strategy, and trading Miller doesn’t serve that strategy.

Managements own strategy has changed though and they’ve admitted it.

 

It’s pretty obvious that almost every option is on the table and that they’ve already said they may trade players they didn’t plan to.

[Ted Lasso]

4 minutes ago, BigTramFan said:

Yes agreed. And the return for Miller can pair with Hughes and anchor our third line

We’ll see.

 

So far that return is a hopeful proposal, and not even a rumour

Edited February 19, 2023 by Kenny Powers