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[DEBATE] Who is the greatest player in NHL history to NEVER win a Stanley Cup?

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Elias Pettersson
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Who is the greatest player in NHL history to NEVER win a Stanley Cup?  

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Kevin Biestra Canucks First-Line

Kevin Biestra

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On 3/29/2023 at 6:41 PM, Citizen Erased said:

To me, it’s a tie between Neely and Iginla. 
 

I think if not for injuries, Neely may have won a cup, but we’ll never know.

 

I figure it would have probably had to be 1994 or 1995 for Neely if he was going to do it...and a fully healthy Bruins might have been able to beat the Rangers in 1994 to get to us.

 

Neely had his shot in 1988 and 1990 and ran into the Oilers dynasty.  Had a fair shake at it in 1991 as well and ran into Mario's back to back Penguins.  Injuries took him out in 1992 but would he have gotten past Mario?  The Bruins without him got swept by that Penguins team.

 

The mid 80s to 1990 Flyers and Bruins really got robbed of some Hall of Fame berths and mini-dynasties themselves by the Gretzky Oilers.  Each would have had two Cups in three years without the Oilers in their way.  Might have also gotten some players from both teams over the hump for the HOF.  Some of Brian Propp, Ron Hextall, Tim Kerr, Rick Tocchet, Andy Moog, Rick Middleton, Brad McCrimmon, etc.

 

 

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Citizen Erased

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1 hour ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

I figure it would have probably had to be 1994 or 1995 for Neely is he was going to do it...and a fully healthy Bruins might have been able to beat the Rangers in 1994 to get to us.

 

Neely had his shot in 1988 and 1990 and ran into the Oilers dynasty.  Had a fair shake at it in 1991 as well and ran into Mario's back to back Penguins.  Injuries took him out in 1992 but would he have gotten past Mario?  The Bruins without him got swept by that Penguins team.

 

The mid 80s to 1990 Flyers and Bruins really got robbed of some Hall of Fame berths and mini-dynasties themselves by the Gretzky Oilers.  Each would have had two Cups in three years without the Oilers in their way.  Might have also gotten some players from both teams over the hump for the HOF.  Some of Brian Propp, Ron Hextall, Tim Kerr, Rick Tocchet, Andy Moog, Rick Middleton, Brad McCrimmon, etc.

 

 

I couldn’t agree more .

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iceman64 Canucks Second-Line

iceman64

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Dale Hawerchuk got my vote...  Quite the player, followed by Bure but that's a bit biased because he was here but man that guy could skate, dangle, and deke like it was old hat, and the way he reacted when he scored? Classic!! But Hawerchuk? Wow 

 This is everything he accomplished

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IBatch Canucks Hall-of-Famer

IBatch

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6 hours ago, iceman64 said:

Dale Hawerchuk got my vote...  Quite the player, followed by Bure but that's a bit biased because he was here but man that guy could skate, dangle, and deke like it was old hat, and the way he reacted when he scored? Classic!! But Hawerchuk? Wow 

 This is everything he accomplished

A year plus ago, I compared McDavid to guys like Stastny and Hawerchuk.    Two guys that without Gretzky who dominated the 80's, but lived in the shadow of Gretzky.   One played on a pretty decent team,  the other not so much.   Bossy got his due of course, and rightly so.   Either is a decent choice for best player never to win a cup.   

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IBatch Canucks Hall-of-Famer

IBatch

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On 3/29/2023 at 10:47 AM, CanucksForever2 said:

We shouldn't look at his playoff production if this thread is about the greatest player without a Cup.

 

He played 1,554 games, 625goals, 1300 points and 1040PIM. He wasn't just one of the best scorers, he was one of the best fighters at the time, I don't recall him losing a fight. There you go, he was one of a kind. It's too bad his years got wasted in Calgary.

 

Not to mention, he has great character, leadership, even better as a person off the ice.

 

  Playoff performance absolutely is part of who was the greatest player, same with what sort of teams they played on (Hawerchuk and Dionne both get extra slack, one played on mediocre and then even not good teams, the other mediocre at best - both played in the Smythe and were victimized for it at times) ... Iginla played on very good CAL teams in the 2000's, some contenders (Kipper did win the Vezina didn't he?) and later on went on to play with contenders.    Of course he deserves to be on this list too.     And is probably a front runner.    However as good as he was, Dionne was special.   A top level player that deserves to be in a tier with the guys after Mario, Orr, Gretzky ... and be with Yzerman, Crosby etc.    Didn't have much opportunity.   

 

Question for me is easy.    Who would you want on your team first.    Dionne.   Guy was impossible to shake off the puck, his low center of gravity and pit-bull like build.    Gaudy goal scoring.   Played center.   He'd kill it in todays league.    How do i know this?  Ten years older than guys who recently retired and going to the HHOF, and he ventilated them and their goalie in an old timers game.    Was hilarious to watch really, played keep away and scored at will or so it seemed anyways.   Destroyed team Lafluer lol.    Also it's easy to go back generation to generation.   Dionne in his 30's was keeping up or doing better then the next crop of guys in their 20's that were stars too. 

 

Iginla went to the finals twice.   Had a lot of looks.   Dionne was a one line team.  Whomever was on his line, was a lucky guy, the same way whomever is on Gretzky's or Mario's, Crosby's or McJesus. 

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Kevin Biestra Canucks First-Line

Kevin Biestra

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39 minutes ago, IBatch said:

A year plus ago, I compared McDavid to guys like Stastny and Hawerchuk.    Two guys that without Gretzky who dominated the 80's, but lived in the shadow of Gretzky.   One played on a pretty decent team,  the other not so much.   Bossy got his due of course, and rightly so.   Either is a decent choice for best player never to win a cup.   

 

The 80s Jets are a little better than they get credit for.  They consistently finished 3rd in the Smythe (even 2nd once) and it was LA and Vancouver battling it out for 4th.  Steen, Paul MacLean, Laurie Boschman, Randy Carlyle, Doug Smail, Dave Ellett, Lucien Deblois, Andrew McBain, Brian Mullen, Scott Arniel.  All good players and a few great ones.  Two arguably top 10 defensemen in the NHL with Babych and Carlyle.  Both certainly top 20 and Ellett might get included at around 20th himself for that window.  And I don't think Arniel could have been much worse than 30th.

 

They had a string of respectable goalies like Bryan Hayward but never a great one to lock things down and carry them out of the division in the playoffs.

 

But yeah, I always saw Stastny / Hawerchuk / Denis Savard as the guys who would have been trading off Art Ross Trophies if Wayne hadn't been in the way.

 

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IBatch Canucks Hall-of-Famer

IBatch

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43 minutes ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

The 80s Jets are a little better than they get credit for.  They consistently finished 3rd in the Smythe (even 2nd once) and it was LA and Vancouver battling it out for 4th.  Steen, Paul MacLean, Laurie Boschman, Randy Carlyle, Doug Smail, Dave Ellett, Lucien Deblois, Andrew McBain, Brian Mullen, Scott Arniel.  All good players and a few great ones.  Two arguably top 10 defensemen in the NHL with Babych and Carlyle.  Both certainly top 20 and Ellett might get included at around 20th himself for that window.

 

They had a string of respectable goalies like Bryan Hayward but never a great one to lock things down and carry them out of the division in the playoffs.

 

But yeah, I always saw Stastny / Hawerchuk / Denis Savard as the guys who would have been trading off Art Ross Trophies if Wayne hadn't been in the way.

One thing that separates Dionne a little too is the amount of trophy votes he got, but didn't win.   2nd in Hart a couple times, 3rd and 5th once, and 9th later on.   Pearson votes a few times too.   Tough to do with Lafluer raking it in during the 70's dynasty, then of course Gretzky at 18 for a decade.  Bossy too.  Did at least get his Art Ross once.   Always the bridesmaid sort of career.    

 

Yes WNP had some decent teams until they imploded a little in the latter  part of the 80's.    2000's weren't the leagues finest hours, talent was thinned right out.   I'd bet those WNP teams would give Iginla's a run for their money, but back then with Kipper and co, they were considered a threat at least.   And did get to game 7 in the final.  

 

WNP had a nice resurgence in the early 90's when Selanne came to town with Keith T.   It's a pity Selanne went to ANA and WNP lost their team,  always loved watching the Jets play Vancouver back then, second favourite games after CAL at the time (since 1989 CAL became must watch games). Some fight filled affairs, believe they set a club record one game against WNP for PM's.   Re-call that Murzyn always got manhandled by big bully TckPuke.   Who wouldn't fight Momesso or Gino, or even Diduck lol.   Just Murzyn or so it seemed. 

 

Edit:  Personally preferred a 5 team division.   Six to me, was where the league should have stopped.   Why create a league, that's watered down and relies on AHL fill-ins plus kids on ELC's that get rushed.   And loses vets that would be better options then both of those types of players especially come playoff time.  And then there is that.   Used to be 16 out of 21 made the show at least one round.    Then 16 out of 24 which still was fine.   Now teams are missing the show for 7-10 plus years.   If the league does another round of expansion...well even now - they should bring in the play-ins permanently.   Looked what happened a 21st team in MTL - went to the final.    To me the league actually should retract.    Won't happen.   But imagine the talent level right now, if it did back to 24 teams.   Current third liners would be fourth liners.   

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Kevin Biestra

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5 minutes ago, IBatch said:

One thing that separates Dionne a little too is the amount of trophy votes he got, but didn't win.   2nd in Hart a couple times, 3rd and 5th once, and 9th later on.   Pearson votes a few times too.   Tough to do with Lafluer raking it in during the 70's dynasty, then of course Gretzky at 18 for a decade.  Bossy too.  Did at least get his Art Ross once.   Always the bridesmaid sort of career.    

 

Yes WNP had some decent teams until they imploded a little in the latter  part of the 80's.    2000's weren't the leagues finest hours, talent was thinned right out.   I'd bet those WNP teams would give Iginla's a run for their money, but back then with Kipper and co, they were considered a threat at least.   And did get to game 7 in the final.  

 

WNP had a nice resurgence in the early 90's when Selanne came to town with Keith T.   It's a pity Selanne went to ANA and WNP lost their team,  always loved watching the Jets play Vancouver back then, second favourite games after CAL at the time (since 1989 CAL became must watch games). Some fight filled affairs, believe they set a club record one game against WNP for PM's.   Re-call that Murzyn always got manhandled by big bully TckPuke.   Who wouldn't fight Momesso or Gino, or even Diduck lol.   Just Murzyn or so it seemed. 

 

Yeah when I said Stastny / Hawerchuk / Savard it occurred to me shortly thereafter that I had left out the Islanders dynasty guys (Bossy / Trottier) and also Dionne and Lafleur, I guess maybe since they were a little older but they would have been competing for the Art Ross through the mid-80s at least as well...same as Michel Goulet who was kind of like Draisaitl to Stastny's McDavid...outscoring him for the season occasionally.  But those seven or eight guys were pretty even with each other.

 

Sad thing is I think Barry Pederson was really on track to be one of them.  His first three seasons were 92, 107 and 116 points.  And he wasn't riding anybody's coattails.  He was the best forward on the team.  His fourth year...played 22 games with his shoulder issues and was never the same again.  Impressive that he was still a point a game guy after that.  But it looked like he was going nowhere but up.

 

 

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wai_lai416 Canucks First-Line

wai_lai416

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12 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

When he retires I will add him to the list…  ^_^

hey ur criteria didn't say have to be retired! only said greatest to never win one i predict he'll never win one.. it's simply too hard in the salary cap era to win when you are the highest paid player in the league.. if he take paycuts like brady did in NE.. he prolly could have a few.

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Elias Pettersson Canucks All-Star

Elias Pettersson

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8 minutes ago, wai_lai416 said:

hey ur criteria didn't say have to be retired! only said greatest to never win one i predict he'll never win one.. it's simply too hard in the salary cap era to win when you are the highest paid player in the league.. if he take paycuts like brady did in NE.. he prolly could have a few.

Yeah, I figured I didn’t want to jinx his career by adding him to the list…  <_<

 

Edmonton has a huge decision to make.  Draisaitl is up in 2 years.  He will want his money. McDavid is up the year after.  Is Edmonton going to re-sign them both or just one?  Will both guys take pay cuts to win some cups?  

 

My prediction is they will trade Draisaitl and keep McDavid.  They have 3 shots at a cup before Draisaitl is gone. Unless he gets traded beforehand. I don’t think they can beat Boston this year.  So they will need to go all in next year.  It could be their only shot with both players…

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King Heffy Canucks Hall-of-Famer

King Heffy

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2 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Yeah, I figured I didn’t want to jinx his career by adding him to the list…  <_<

 

Edmonton has a huge decision to make.  Draisaitl is up in 2 years.  He will want his money. McDavid is up the year after.  Is Edmonton going to re-sign them both or just one?  Will both guys take pay cuts to win some cups?  

 

My prediction is they will trade Draisaitl and keep McDavid.  They have 3 shots at a cup before Draisaitl is gone. Unless he gets traded beforehand. I don’t think they can beat Boston this year.  So they will need to go all in next year.  It could be their only shot with both players…

They really need to trade one of them in order to ice an NHL quality blueline.  They don't have a chance of success with only Nurse and Ekholm back there.  

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Westcoasting Canucks Second-Line

Westcoasting

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Marcel Dionne is probably number 1. A guy who played most of his career in LA and basically no one ever saw him play. LA was never on HNIC and the amount of times he was in the playoffs was minimal. Kind of like the Red Wings before Yzerman and Ike Pittsburgh before Mario. But the guy was amazing.

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iceman64 Canucks Second-Line

iceman64

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On 4/2/2023 at 6:28 PM, Elias Pettersson said:

When he retires I will add him to the list…  ^_^

One can hope... Just like Gretzky,  McDavid can also cry really hard when he doesn't get his way. Both great scorer's but equally as whiners too.

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IBatch Canucks Hall-of-Famer

IBatch

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10 hours ago, iceman64 said:

One can hope... Just like Gretzky,  McDavid can also cry really hard when he doesn't get his way. Both great scorer's but equally as whiners too.

Gretzky did have a rep for using his influence with the refs.    As far as whining goes I suppose that's up to the eye of the beholder.   It was Gretzky that made sure the team stuck around the village, and supported the other Canadian athletes after they lost in Nagono  (and their heart wasn't in it after Hasek stoned them, gold or bust in 1998).   Meanwhile Keith Tckpuke was trashing the rooms with some of his mates - that's a different type of "leadership", and then they packed their bags and left.     Then again in 2002, when team Canada faltered, made an impromptu passionate speech about the media circus "taking shots at Canadian hockey".    He wasn't a stoic quiet leader like Sakic, but still considered one of the best the games ever had.   SN ranked him 4th.   Behind Beliveau, Messier and Howe, always made sure new teammates were welcomed, and was modest to a fault about his personal accomplishments at a time the spotlight was roasting hot.    Made it about the team.  

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Kevin Biestra Canucks First-Line

Kevin Biestra

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17 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Gretzky did have a rep for using his influence with the refs.    As far as whining goes I suppose that's up to the eye of the beholder.   It was Gretzky that made sure the team stuck around the village, and supported the other Canadian athletes after they lost in Nagono  (and their heart wasn't in it after Hasek stoned them, gold or bust in 1998).   Meanwhile Keith Tckpuke was trashing the rooms with some of his mates - that's a different type of "leadership", and then they packed their bags and left.     Then again in 2002, when team Canada faltered, made an impromptu passionate speech about the media circus "taking shots at Canadian hockey".    He wasn't a stoic quiet leader like Sakic, but still considered one of the best the games ever had.   SN ranked him 4th.   Behind Beliveau, Messier and Howe, always made sure new teammates were welcomed, and was modest to a fault about his personal accomplishments at a time the spotlight was roasting hot.    Made it about the team.  

 

Yeah Linden is the only player I remember having a good game in the bronze medal match or even seeming to care.

 

Gretzky...far and away more good than bad in terms of leadership, poise and being an ambassador.  But I remember Ray Ferraro had a good story about his rookie year where he was taking a faceoff against Gretzky.  Gretzky was setting up in an illegal way for the draw and Ferraro tries to point it out to the ref.  Gretzky just yells "Shut the f*** up rookie" and that was it...ref did the faceoff the way Gretzky wanted it.

 

 

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IBatch Canucks Hall-of-Famer

IBatch

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2 minutes ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

Yeah Linden is the only player I remember having a good game in the bronze medal match or even seeming to care.

 

Gretzky...far and away more good than bad in terms leadership, poise and being an ambassador.  But I remember Ray Ferraro had a good story about his rookie year where he was taking a faceoff against Gretzky.  Gretzky was setting up in an illegal way for the draw and Ferraro tries to point it out to the ref.  Gretzky just yells "Shut the f*** up rookie" and that was it...ref did the faceoff the way Gretzky wanted it.

One of my favourite Howe stories, and this is a segway, but since it's about leadership, for sure different styles...  When he first started the WHA, other players wanted to try him, to see how far they could go, and how much ice they could take away.     His response?  Lumber.    Every new city, a new player trying to intimidate Howe, and each time he cracked them over the head with the stick, gave them a little "anecdote" about respecting your elders, smiled and calmly skated to the box to do his time.   Some times he had to do it a couple times to send the message.    This is Howe talking about returning to hockey and how he gained his space lol.   Different times.  

 

     One game they started in on his kids to take him off his game  - big mistake.   This time the gloves came off - whack whack whack like chopping wood, and he picked the player up by the nostrils (slap shot stuff indeed) and said next time I won't be a gentleman about it or something like that.   Don't have the book infront of me ... but this is how it was written.     Players used what they had.    Howe said it took a couple months of doing this, word got around quick, and after that he had his space and players new to leave  Marty and Mark alone, but he always did it with a smile and left the player with "a valuable learning lesson" or a "teachable moment".  There wasn't really any angst except if they messed with his kids.   He went on to win the MVP at 45 his first season back.   That's how good he was, but i'm sure he also needed that space to play his best game.  

 

For sure Wayne used what he could too. Any advantage.   

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King Heffy Canucks Hall-of-Famer

King Heffy

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On 4/4/2023 at 5:45 AM, IBatch said:

Gretzky did have a rep for using his influence with the refs.    As far as whining goes I suppose that's up to the eye of the beholder.   It was Gretzky that made sure the team stuck around the village, and supported the other Canadian athletes after they lost in Nagono  (and their heart wasn't in it after Hasek stoned them, gold or bust in 1998).   Meanwhile Keith Tckpuke was trashing the rooms with some of his mates - that's a different type of "leadership", and then they packed their bags and left.     Then again in 2002, when team Canada faltered, made an impromptu passionate speech about the media circus "taking shots at Canadian hockey".    He wasn't a stoic quiet leader like Sakic, but still considered one of the best the games ever had.   SN ranked him 4th.   Behind Beliveau, Messier and Howe, always made sure new teammates were welcomed, and was modest to a fault about his personal accomplishments at a time the spotlight was roasting hot.    Made it about the team.  

I'm not sure how much value I would place in that SN list since they put a locker room cancer in the top 3.

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